Getting the most out of Flash

[Saren]

I'm not sure if this should have gone in the Paladin forum or something, it's mostly in the whm forum because I am asking about using flash from a more whm perspective.

So….I am still a good few levels off flash but I finally got around to reading up on it a little the other day because I didn’t have a very complete idea of what it did and people seem to have such different opinions about what whms should be using it for, if at all. I am not going to ask you what you think about whms using flash because I am planning to try it (carefully) regardless of advice to the contrary. Assuming you can work it in without upsetting the hate balance, it sounds awesome.

What I particularly wanted to ask about is this:

One post said that you can use flash to have a very good chance of negating certain TP moves by making them miss, which made sense. Goblin Rush was the example that I think was thrown up the most as a TP move that had a good chance of missing if the mob was flashed. They then went on to say that the same applied to certain AoE status effect inflicting moves, so you could prevent status ailments from landing on the party at all, which sounded a little too good to be true. Does anyone know if this is complete rubbish or have any experience of it working?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

I would think Flash would only affect physical attacks, since it gives a 'blinded' status until S-E changed it slightly so it would stack with Blind/Kurayami. Next time I fight Puks I'll note exactly what the status effect help message says. >_>;

If you can catch the dangerous physical TP attacks in time to toss out Flash (like DRK and BLM use Stun), then go for it. I'm a terrible stunner, though, so I'd just use it to mitigate damage to tanks.

On PLD, I ask the static WHM to follow my lead--I Flash (with a /tell WHM in macro XD ), he waits 10+ seconds then use it. Over time, it's a real MP saver. (Last time I parsed, I was evading/parrying about 1/3 of all attacks thanks to the double Flash rotation.)

Because of the enmity it incurs, if I'm on NIN, I'd beg the WHM not to use it until after second Provoke, then Flash as often as possible to save my shadows. Some NIN's instead want WHM's to reserve Flash until their shadows are down and Utusemi: Ni are not up, yet, however.

[Feenicks]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

It all depends what level you're at. At the higher levels WHM has enough Enmity gear to toss out a Flash without worrying about getting hate, and it has quite a long recast so it's not like you'll be spamming it. I mainly use it when a NIN tank loses all of its shadows and is having trouble recasting but as mentioned about it works really well stopping nasty physical TP moves. The problem is timing - you can't rely on casting as soon as you see the 'Monster readies <skill>' text, rather it's better to try and gauge how long it's been since the mob used a TP move and go by that instead. With capped Divine Magic skill Flash lasts for a good few seconds so that's usually enough time to get it in the right place.

[Necropolis]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

I used flash in emergencies when I first got it with nin tanks (or pld tanks about to die). Once you have full AF with all the -enmity on it, you can safely cast at almost all times.

From my understanding and experience, it only stops physical attacks with not much effect (if any) on AoEs.

With a pld tank, you can keep the mob blind for almost the entire fight, timing your flashes. You can help that lazy nin that doesn't cast shadows over shadows a bit as well. Very helpful when soloing, except against mnk mobs, as it will almost guarentee three misses. This gives you time to put stoneskin up in most cases.

The effect it gives looks like blindness, but it does indeed stack with other blindness. You can test this by casting blind on a mob, flashing it, and you'll notice after a few seconds it says the mob is no longer blinded (being from flash) and will later tell you again the mob is no longer blinded (from the spell blind).

As for timing it with TP moves, it's difficult. Because TP moves are almost instananious after they ready them, you'd really have to time it well to flash it. You can try timing it, but I generally hold out for when the tank needs it or someone's in danger of dieing.

Great spell, but use with caution when you first get it. If you're getting hit, it's not a wise idea to flash the mob to avoid hits. That is unless you tank is being stupid and can't reestablish hate. I've flashed, gotten stoneskin up and had the party kill it before it got through stoneskin again. But I've also died doing this, just depends on the party. If you notice the mob move, and the tank just stands there appearing afk, I would suggest the flash/stoneskin and either zone or kill mob quick.

[Malacite]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Flash is also one of the two best spells in the game for claiming mobs (the other is stun).

It generates a good chunk of hate and has a .5 second casting time. Admittidly, I hate camping Mysticmaker Profblix right now because a lot of ppl either flash or stun him as soon as he's up @ - @

[Amele]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

the reference to 'aoe status' is probably mostly about whirl of rage (aoe damage and stun).

some moves are instantaneous and can't be flashed (like Razor Fang from tigers, for instance) - generally if it's non-magical and has a big windup you can flash it.

a note on nm claiming with flash/stun: like provoke, these can sometimes be 'too fast' where you'll try to cast and the spell just won't go off (like if someone provokes too soon). you won't see an interrupted or out of range message, and the ability won't start trying to cool down, it will just not finish. In this case, it means you tried to claim too quickly (gg SE patches) and ran into the delay after an nm spawns when you're not allowed to claim it. I often claim with dia II because of this. (dia is also regularly 'too fast' for my setup and reflexes)

obviously, this will rarely happen in a place like Aery, but on mobs like mysticmaker or charybdis, etc you can run into it if you have a good connection and a decent system.

[Malacite]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

a note on nm claiming with flash/stun: like provoke, these can sometimes be 'too fast' where you'll try to cast and the spell just won't go off (like if someone provokes too soon). you won't see an interrupted or out of range message, and the ability won't start trying to cool down, it will just not finish. In this case, it means you tried to claim too quickly (gg SE patches) and ran into the delay after an nm spawns when you're not allowed to claim it. I often claim with dia II because of this. (dia is also regularly 'too fast' for my setup and reflexes)

Eh idk about that. Last time Mystic popped I tried provoking it for a friend but while provoke wouldn't work at all, the other camper (a PLD) got flash off right away.

[Necropolis]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

The claiming patch was to make it fair for other players that arn't botting to get claim on a mob. Depending on your setup, the mob could appear to pop claimed already. I think it was mainly a gripe from NA players because of our distance from the servers, so JP players saw the mob and claimed it before we even saw it pop.

Personally I think it's a fair compromise, but regardless, it's a moot point now. While flash is fast for claiming, it's interupptable. Where as Provoke and other job abilities are not (in most cases). If I'm right out of range of casting when a mob spawns, I have to get closer, stop and wait a second, then cast flash. Where as anyone with /war can just auto run jamming thier voke macro. Seems if you get interuppted while cast, you have to wait an extra second or two as well. So it seems best to use that strategy on mobs that will spawn within range of where you're standing, and not ones you'll have to chase down.

[Armando]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Flash every chance you get unless the PLD used his own Flash less than 13 seconds ago. Don't bother trying to react to mob TP moves unless it's specifically slow-charging. It's impossible to do it by reaction for moves with standard charge-up time, since the move takes 0.5 secs to charge and Flash takes 0.5 secs to cast. It's also impossible to anticipate a TP move when the mob is higher than 20% HP, and the only time you can really anticipate a TP move is when the mob hasn't used one in over 10 secs and the WS or Skillchain is going to take the mob's HP below 20% (since mobs always use their TP when it's available below 20% HP.) Technically you could count how much TP is being fed to the mob, but...yeah, good luck with that. At best you can guesstimate by counting ~10 TP for each single-handed melee swing and ~15 for each two-hander. But, again, this only applies once the mob is below 20%, there's a chance the mob won't use a physical move, and focusing that hard on counting TP would make you lose track of your main duty.

Depending on the NIN, it may or may not be better to reserve Flash for when they're caught in a pinch. But you have to consider that it shouldn't happen too often, which also means you're wasting potential Flash time. And don't forget that Flash practically forces misses, and misses means longer-lasting shadows. Flashing often will reduce the odds that the NIN will find himself shadowless and waiting on timers, and you can bring a stunner along to help the NIN when he does need to recast without shadows.

You shouldn't be afraid to pull hate with Flash unless your Evasion is grossly underlevelled, since there's a very good chance the mob will miss you even if you pull hate. Besides, Flash doesn't pull so much hate that it's incredibly difficult to get it back. Of course, do use your judgement with NINs at the beginning of the fight. If you can pull hate with a Cure III at the beginning of the fight, odds are you can also do so with Flash. Besides, NINs start off with an extra set of shadows at the beginning, so the benefits of Flash would be wasted then.

Bottom line: to make the most of it, Flash every chance you get, unless it will overlap with another Flash (Flash lasts 12-13 secs unresisted, and it's got pretty good accuracy so it doesn't see partial resists often.)

[Necropolis]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

I'm not sure that Flash last 12-13 seconds. I have capped Divine Magic skill, Apollo's staff, and macro in +Divine skill equipment for divine spells. It appears to me that it last 3 attack cycles, which can vary from mob to mob. The only case where it doesn't last 12-13 seconds consistantly is mnk type mobs, and I believe this is due to how fast they attack.

I don't believe I'm expierencing resist on these, as I get the same results in length when I'm a level 75 whm beating up a much lower level mnk mob. On most other mobs it appears to last about 3 hits (or about the cast time of stoneskin).

As for flashing every chance you can, I would be leary unless you know the party members well. After AF and other -enmity gear you can safely cast it ever chance you get, but in the case of nin tanks that arn't geared for enmity, I can still pull hate consistantly. I find this particularly true in the case where I had to flash in order to save the tank. The hate from both flash, and then curing the tank can be quite a bit.

And sometimes moving the mob (weather or not you'll evade hits) can be dangerous. Especially true in cases where you'll screw up a skillchain or possible be hit with an AoE status effect. Does you no good if you steal hate, then get hit with paralyze, petrify, silence or some other status effect that may spell your doom.

I would recommend using the spell as need from 45 to 60, after 60 you should have enough gear (and the tank have enough enmity gear) that you can cast the spell every chance you get without worrying.

[Armando]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Flash is certainly 12-13 seconds. I've timed it myself. Bear in mind that a normal mob has exactly 240 Delay, or 4 seconds. Of course, there's also Slow to take into account, but you also get a few extra seconds since you'll hardly Flash exactly when a mob is swinging, which means the first attack round will probably happen only 1-3 seconds after Flash was cast.

And, of course there are situations where it's bad to Flash. The OP can use her judgment to decide. It's just that Flash has gotten a notoriety of being a hate-grabbing spell thanks to PLD's efficient use of it, but oftentimes its hate is blown out of proportion, and that makes many WHMs shy away from an otherwise amazing spell.

[Necropolis]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Odd, I've never had flash last more than 4-5 seconds on the mnk yagudos in Castle O. I would like to think I havn't been resisted for every monk I've killed there, I'm sure I've killed more than 100 helping friends farm for testimonies. I've noticed the same thing with the Overgrown Rose type mobs, and mandragora (though they seem to attack slower than other higher level mnks).

[Amele]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Eh idk about that. Last time Mystic popped I tried provoking it for a friend but while provoke wouldn't work at all, the other camper (a PLD) got flash off right away.

you don't know about flash getting eaten or about using slower spells? if it's the former: this is a first hand report here, (to be fair I'm on a good connection with a good rig and I have fast reflexes, I routinely won claims pre-patch) and my flash is sometimes too fast for the anti-bot code.

if you're not sure if using a slower spell is better, I guess it's more of a playstyle thing, I prefer to cast off as quickly as I can and use the spell delay to get past the claim delay, others might prefer to use their fastest spell but judge when to cast.

still others won't care or notice and in some camps, may still see mobs 'spawn' purple even with the new claim delay.


tl;dr: spells with cast time under ~1 second *can* get eaten by the claim delay.

[Saren]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

Short sighted of me but I wasn't actually intending this to be a discussion of flash hate at all. I have read what other people have said about it here and elsewhere and I think I have a pretty good grasp of hate control. I know how to minimise the hate I accumulate and how to lose it quickly if for some reason my enmity goes above the tanks, enmity hasn't really been a problem with a tank who provokes every 30 seconds since I got regen.

Thankyou to everyone who replied about the status effect/TP move original question, especially Armando because your post was helpful, told me a good few things I didn't know and was practical.

Given the aforesaid reading, I think I have a pretty good basic idea of how to use flash apropriately for damage mitigation. I am not here saying OMG Flash is the ROXORZ, I gunna spam from da start and no cure! Not until after the second provoke for NIN (or WAR) tanks, possibly saving flash for when their shadows are down depending on how much trouble they have getting them back up. About 13-15 seconds after the PLD casts it for PLD tanks. The main reason I worry about taking hate in partys right now is because it pulls the mob out of position rather than because I am worried about the tank getting hate back, it's always (barring things having gone drastically wrong) been pretty easy for even tanks that I would say were not terribly good to get hate back (say one provoke and my keeping at minimal casting until the next hate spike)

If an unresisted flash is pretty much 3 guaranteed misses on the tank for about the price of a cure 2....that's....awsome assuming the hate balance allows you to cast it. Not only does that mean I save curing three hits on the tank which is bound to amount to more than 90hp of damage (it certainly does at level 30) and thus save me a large amount of mp in terms of spells I don't have to cast, it also means that if I have nothing else to be casting it's created a good opportunity for me to steal a relatively safe tick or two of rest mid battle. Sure hate is an issue with flash and I understand that death is definitely not mp efficient so I am planning on being careful particularly at first but hate allowing, what's not to love?

[lionx]

Re: Getting the most out of Flash

And, of course there are situations where it's bad to Flash. The OP can use her judgment to decide. It's just that Flash has gotten a notoriety of being a hate-grabbing spell thanks to PLD's efficient use of it, but oftentimes its hate is blown out of proportion, and that makes many WHMs shy away from an otherwise amazing spell.

I find this exceptionally true, and in my own opinion, Stun gives off similar if not exact same hate as Flash. Yet DRK and BLMs spam this spell whenever they could or are in trouble, yet WHMs dont do the same...?(well at least when the PLD isnt using Flash himself to gain hate back) Flash does give a nice ammount of hate, however it is not as much as some people would like to think and WHMs should not shy away from using this spell when appropiate like many do today.