Whats a good sub-job?

[Fickley]

I'm a White Mage, and I was wondering what is the most recommended sub-job? I was thinking about something to boost my offensive level up, but I wasn't sure if I should try that or not...so any help would be appreciated.

[DrivenTooFar]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Two sub jobs are good for exp parties:

The first is Black Mage. You get a good addition to your Max MP plus you get some enfeebles and spells that can be handy in certain situations. Conserve MP trait can also be handy, though you probably won't notice it much. Also, when you get to 36 and you start teleporting, Black Mages Warp is very handy.

Second is Summoner. This sub has a much better MP pool, mind and you also get access to Auto-Refresh (not available until 50 though). The summons aren't good but that is not why you sub this anyway.

Both of these jobs have clear mind which is helpful. There are other subs you can use for different scenarios but for exp this is the best. I'm assuming the your new so you will have to go with Black Mage as your sub.

[Icemage]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Two sub jobs are good for exp parties:

The first is Black Mage. You get a good addition to your Max MP plus you get some enfeebles and spells that can be handy in certain situations. Conserve MP trait can also be handy, though you probably won't notice it much. Also, when you get to 36 and you start teleporting, Black Mages Warp is very handy.

Second is Summoner. This sub has a much better MP pool, mind and you also get access to Auto-Refresh (not available until 50 though). The summons aren't good but that is not why you sub this anyway.

Both of these jobs have clear mind which is helpful. There are other subs you can use for different scenarios but for exp this is the best. I'm assuming the your new so you will have to go with Black Mage as your sub.

Several points:

- Max MP is overrated for WHM. WHM in XP parties mostly revolves around how quickly you regain and spend MP, not how large your MP tank is.

- At various levels, Red Mage and Bard both make excellent subjobs for WHM depending on circumstances. Red Mage is particularly useful before level 40 due to better non-MP stat boosts compared to /BLM, as well as after level 64+ when you get access to Dispel. Bard subjob is useful after level 50 for access to Mage's Ballad, as well as a few other handy support songs such as Madrigal, March, and Finale.

- Clear Mind traits from /BLM and /SMN do NOT stack with WHM's inherent Clear Mind traits. You get them on WHM faster than you get them off of either subjob, so at no time do you recover MP faster via Clear Mind from any subjob when playing WHM (though Conserve MP helps you spend less MP, and Auto-Refresh slightly increases your MP recovery rate).

For general XP purposes, /BLM is a good catchall subjob. It's never really bad, and there are times when it's quite useful. /SMN is situationally useful for Aerial Armor against very slow attackers with a non-shadow using tank (i.e. PLD tank vs. Buffalo or something... not that anyone levels on Buffalo anymore). /RDM is useful at 64+ when you absolutely require Dispel and there's no one else that can cast it, such as when your primary support job is a Corsair. /BRD is useful in mage-heavy parties that do not already have a Bard - the extra 1 MP per tick from Ballad for the entire party can greatly speed party efficiency.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Bard subjob is useful after level 50 for access to Mage's Ballad, as well as a few other handy support songs such as Madrigal, March, and Finale.

It should be noted, however, that /BRD as a sub will only give you one song at not even half the power of what a full BRD could offer a PT. So you can't keep four songs active at a time like BRD could, just one for the melee and one for the mages. Ballad is the exception to the rule since its only affected by duration.

In the past, I would generally be against /BRD for any job, but the existance of COR - that is, if you invite one - makes /BRD a more viable subjob now than in the past for jobs like WHM or RDM. Not only because they can refresh with Evoker's Roll, but also because they can enhance the effect of Clear Mind for WHM through Healer's Roll.

[Tirrock]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

In parties you should try to concentrate on your specialty. While soloing, you should worry more about what you lack.

When you're with others, you'll do better by concentrating at what you're good at; healing. Icemage's post covers that very well.

While soloing, things can change a bit. Ninja sub is okay for avoiding damage (better at level 74+ with haste gear on). WAR sub wouldn't be too good until double attack, since 10 DEF won't help you too much and berserk would just make you take more damage for a slight damage increase (on EP's, which you'd probably be killing solo). Thief as a subjob is probably what you'll use, not because it'll give you the most damage, but because it'll give you gil finder and treasure hunter. (At level 5 and 15 THF.) Plus you get an evasion bonus trait, not that it's super helpful with WHM's amazingly low evasion.

If you're going to level only one subjob (the more subjobs you have the better...), I'd level BLM. It becomes useful before SMN sub is, with conserve MP being given to you at WHM40/BLM20. Versus auto-refresh at WHM50/SMN25. They're both pretty close to each other in terms of MP regained/saved but BLM gives you warp, sleep, elemental seal, and escape.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Keep in mind, so far I only have BLM as a viable subjob for my WHM.

BLM can offer:

Elemental seal (if you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to Silence something, all other considerations aside, elemental seal silence works like a charm.)
Sleep
Sleepga (Suspected alternate spelling of "Miraculous survival")
Bind
Tractor
Warp
Escape
Conserve MP (sometimes iffy. It seems to REALLY only kick in while weakened status effect is on)
Aspir
Drain *not so much, because WHM can cure themselves. But I can Drain (21 MP) about 105 HP when Cure II (24 MP) can restore 102 of my HP. But the nice thing about Drain is that that ~100 HP you just regained, your enemy lost. Cure spells dont' damage whatever you're fighting in and of themselves. When you're low on MP, drain is nice to end a fight faster and prolong your own life.

SMN can offer:

AOE stoneskin (and maybe AOE haste, but I think hastega is level 40, so un-subbable)
AOE ice spikes (paralysis effect)
AOE enthunder (nice little extra damage to pile on)
Auto-refresh <--- this is what I want it for. Rawr!
*NOTE the avatars ARE useful subbed for when you're running through an area with sight-aggro mobs. Everyone follow Carbuncle!
There may also be an issue of tossing Carby out as a delaying tactic for links/aggro. I dont' know yet.

From what I can see, though, summoner sub doesn't have the "Oh shit the situation's tanking, let me pull a miracle out of my arse" factor that BLM does.

You'd think Sleepga would be an unused spell on whitemage, but with the number of parties I've saved through elemental seal > sleepga > teleport dem I estimate having Sleepga lying around collecting dust in my spell book has saved about 100k exp (counting myself and everyone else it saved)

Sure, the RDM and BLM have Sleepga as well. (And the BLM has sleepga II). But when it comes down to the wire, I find that the puny whitemage who took a half second to elementally seal her sleepga (And more importantly, knows where the macro is!) has the one that sticks.

Similarly, after the situations tanked, how do you pull your dead paladin from between Guyvere's teeth? Tractor and cahones. When your Reraise makes you the sole survivor of a party wipe, it's nice to be able to drag the bodies somewhere safe YOURSELF.

The bottom line of all this, for me, is that while I would sub Summoner for an EXP party if I knew ahead of time that it was going to be a good party and I was going to be pushing to hold chain 5, and that auto-refresh was going to be needed.

For all other situations, risky parties, escorting people around, quests, missions, other things likely to need 'miracles', I wouldn't even consider SMN.



As to RDM and BRD, I haven't ever tried them, or seriously researched them. But just having compared BLM and SMN, I can only see myself subbing RDM.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

didn't see this mentioned yet, but your goal as a WHM isn't to choose a sub that "boost my offensive level up." /slap /slap /slap

you need to concentrate on healing (and keeping your MP ready). if you wan't to nuke, choose another job.

[Haggai]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Red Mage is particularly useful before level 40 due to better non-MP stat boosts compared to /BLM, as well as after level 64+ when you get access to Dispel.

/RDM is useful at 64+ when you absolutely require Dispel and there's no one else that can cast it, such as when your primary support job is a Corsair.

Thank you for posting this, Icemage. I'm not a RDM, and up until now, I thought that Dispel was a Dark Magic.

Silly me, it's just a dark based enfeebling magic. It would be kinda silly to have a RDM-only spell based off of a magic type that they have an E in.

lolme

[Icemage]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Drain *not so much, because WHM can cure themselves. But I can Drain (21 MP) about 105 HP when Cure II (24 MP) can restore 102 of my HP. But the nice thing about Drain is that that ~100 HP you just regained, your enemy lost. Cure spells dont' damage whatever you're fighting in and of themselves. When you're low on MP, drain is nice to end a fight faster and prolong your own life.

Drain also tacks on much more enmity than Cure II, though. Also, 100+ Drain would be unresisted, which basically requires that you use it against something weak to Dark Magic (Mandragora-type) or use Elemental Seal. Not saying it isn't handy sometimes, but Drain isn't really one of the main reasons to sub BLM.

SMN can offer:

AOE stoneskin (and maybe AOE haste, but I think hastega is level 40, so un-subbable)

Nope. You can't access Titan's Earthen Ward blood pact when you're /SMN. It's level 46.

AOE ice spikes (paralysis effect)
AOE enthunder (nice little extra damage to pile on)

Both of these abilities (Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder), frankly, suck. Fistful of damage for huge MP cost (63 and 52 MP respectively, plus summoning and perpetuation costs). If you really want to Paralyze something... just cast Paralyze. And if you really want to tack on a few points of damage for that kind of MP, cast Banish III.

Auto-refresh <--- this is what I want it for. Rawr!

This is arguably the main reason to use /SMN, but you don't get it until level 50/25, and even then it's not significantly superior to /BLM's Conserve MP or /BRD's Mage's Ballad.

*NOTE the avatars ARE useful subbed for when you're running through an area with sight-aggro mobs. Everyone follow Carbuncle!
There may also be an issue of tossing Carby out as a delaying tactic for links/aggro. I dont' know yet.

This is OK at lower levels when Carby won't die in a single hit. Unfortunately, by the time you're in the 50+ range (which is the only time you should be considering /SMN anyway), Carbuncle doesn't last very long at all and won't buy you much, if any time.

Also note that having a summoned pet out in one zone (Al'Taieu) can and will get you killed by your pet auto-aggroing otherwise harmless Ul'hpemde and Om'hpemde.

From what I can see, though, summoner sub doesn't have the "Oh shit the situation's tanking, let me pull a miracle out of my arse" factor that BLM does.

You'd think Sleepga would be an unused spell on whitemage, but with the number of parties I've saved through elemental seal > sleepga > teleport dem I estimate having Sleepga lying around collecting dust in my spell book has saved about 100k exp (counting myself and everyone else it saved)

Sure, the RDM and BLM have Sleepga as well. (And the BLM has sleepga II). But when it comes down to the wire, I find that the puny whitemage who took a half second to elementally seal her sleepga (And more importantly, knows where the macro is!) has the one that sticks.

Agreed. Sometimes /BLM is a good thing, particularly in link-prone areas like Boyahda Tree. This is less of an issue now since most everyone 65+ is XPing in ToAU zones where Escape isn't much of an option, but Sleepga is still handy for crisis control.

Similarly, after the situations tanked, how do you pull your dead paladin from between Guyvere's teeth? Tractor and cahones. When your Reraise makes you the sole survivor of a party wipe, it's nice to be able to drag the bodies somewhere safe YOURSELF.

The bottom line of all this, for me, is that while I would sub Summoner for an EXP party if I knew ahead of time that it was going to be a good party and I was going to be pushing to hold chain 5, and that auto-refresh was going to be needed.

For all other situations, risky parties, escorting people around, quests, missions, other things likely to need 'miracles', I wouldn't even consider SMN.

There's a reason my SMN job is still level 1. It's not that I object to the job, I just have never felt that the perks of Auto-Refresh were worth the time invested, since it's only ever really useful in XP parties, and not always even in those cases.

As to RDM and BRD, I haven't ever tried them, or seriously researched them. But just having compared BLM and SMN, I can only see myself subbing RDM.

I gained levels 61-75 almost exclusively using /BRD. It's very effective if you have good time management skills. /RDM is really powerful when in a party with Corsairs, who cannot Dispel enemies.


Icemage

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Drain also tacks on much more enmity than Cure II, though. Also, 100+ Drain would be unresisted, which basically requires that you use it against something weak to Dark Magic (Mandragora-type) or use Elemental Seal. Not saying it isn't handy sometimes, but Drain isn't really one of the main reasons to sub BLM.

Usually, I only use Drain when soloing. I posted then went to take a bath and came back to edit that in.

So the hate factor isn't much of an issue, but in parties, yes it is very much present and in effect.

Nope. You can't access Titan's Earthen Ward blood pact when you're /SMN. It's level 46.
Both of these abilities (Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder), frankly, suck. Fistful of damage for huge MP cost (63 and 52 MP respectively, plus summoning and perpetuation costs). If you really want to Paralyze something... just cast Paralyze. And if you really want to tack on a few points of damage for that kind of MP, cast Banish III.

I was afraid of that, both points. Like I posted, I have no firsthand experience with summoner sub, just a MODERATE amount of research into the feild.

Also note that having a summoned pet out in one zone (Al'Taieu) can and will get you killed by your pet auto-aggroing otherwise harmless Ul'hpemde and Om'hpemde.

I did not know this, thanks for mentioning it before I got someone killed. <.<

I gained levels 61-75 almost exclusively using /BRD. It's very effective if you have good time management skills. /RDM is really powerful when in a party with Corsairs, who cannot Dispel enemies.


Icemage

BRD is on my eventual to-do list, at the moment behind summoner (simply because I've already invested significant time and money into smn). I am hoping someday to sub every job to whitemage (WHM/SAM anyone? Maybe the new WHM/NIN) and experiment with them.

Alas, that day is not today.

[Aethal]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Most of this has been mentioned in some form or another by a previous post but I thought I'd just give my two cents since I wondered about this myself and this is how I go about my WHM sub jobs.

/BLM - I use this sub job for most purposes. Sleep, warp, and tractor are always handy to have if you're doing solo work. I don't usually use /blm when I exp because I find the benefits of SMN to have a bit more advantage since I can't land sleep on VT mobs too well, I don't really need tractor because not often enough do people die in my exp parties, and I can teleport myself out to a crag to warp home from Tavnazian Safehold.

/SMN - Conserve MP would have to be the only thing I miss when I sub summoner. I sub this mainly when my role as a WHM is turned into a position where it's best I just manage my MP and keep my cures going as long as possible. These situations are exp parties (though King Ranperre's Tomb I sub blm for tractor if the red mage subs whm), Kirin, sky gods, etc etc.

Over all, it's all really opinionated. What may be good for some people might not work for others because they play differently. I have over 1500 MP both /blm and /smn and I've been asked why I bother to sub summoner then, but really I enjoy the MND boost from /smn that makes my healing magic cap higher, the auto refresh, and of course the little MP bonus can go a long way if you're down to 50 or so MP and a Cure III saved someone from dying. /blm will always be handy and preferred if I'm alone or dealing with a mob Tough or lower.

WHM, like any mage job, should love HMP gear. I have two macros just for my HMP set. I annoyed my poor boyfriend so much helping me get NQ Euvhi organs for the relaxing earring. It really helps. Ginger cookies are also lovely.. And Yigit set seems to be the best gear for HMP if you get the whole thing. In exp parties I'll have +2 MP refresh with /smnl while resting. Hot @@; 2/5 Yigit for now..

I don't really use other kind of sub jobs, maybe /thf, /sam, or /nin occasionally if I feel I can go solo something for an item. Only mentioned this because the thread starter said he might be a melee type of WHM. I lawl'ed. Soloing only..

[Tirrock]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

Auto-refresh seems to get better the less you cast. You cast less, you don't activate conserve MP as often. Unfortunately for /SMN, /BLM also shines on weaker monsters with sleepga. As well as helping traveling with warp and escape.

I went from having SMN as my only sub for WHM up to level 70 to subbing BLM practically every time I used WHM. Not because I really dislike SMN sub, but I don't find it useful enough when I'm looking at a situation to determine the subjob I'll need.

Although honestly, the subjobs are still pretty much close other than the safety net that having one person in the party with escape/tractor provides.

Sure, the RDM and BLM have Sleepga as well. (And the BLM has sleepga II). But when it comes down to the wire, I find that the puny whitemage who took a half second to elementally seal her sleepga (And more importantly, knows where the macro is!) has the one that sticks.

This caught my eye, and I laughed to myself as I remembered a few BCNMs where I slept (or silenced) stuff as WHM/BLM because everybody else wasn't.

Off-topic comment - Aethal, my signature is about hunting euvhi organs. Nyiri and myself duoed the flowers as SMN. It took something close to 8 hours to get the organs we needed (and we already had more than half), but it was well worth the time spent. Plus we got a head to head test on avatar attack merits vs avatar accuracy merits.

[Aanya_Ramuh]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

What I found interesting is no one even mentioned /pld as a new viable sub since SE introduced refresh for that job as well. If you are a taru whm I could see that as an alternative to a /smn for a sub - it would give you a refresh and a bit more HP if things went sour.

As all the others have stated, each sub job has its definite benefits and drawbacks -

You can think of /BLM as your "swiss army knife" sub - you can truly be ready for most emergencies with this sub. Escape, tractor, warp and sleep are wonderful if things go south in a party.

Tractoring your party to a safe raise area... or even better if you are able to escape (if you dont have blm or a rdm/blm or the other mage is being interrupted) and save your party.

/SMN - I like this one with the additional MP I get with this sub - as well as the autorefresh that will stack with either Refresh, Ballad or Juices. I usually have this one in a party that looks to be a fast moving exp party and I worry about my hMp rate.

Also, if necessary (and it isnt a long pull) carby pulls can cut down on many links (not all the time - I found out the hard way that if you are still running when carby dies that this doesn work ><) and aerial armor does come in handy (especially when you can aid some of the blms with blink and prevent a bit of damage).

/BRD - Ive tried and have not had as much luck with this one unless it is a manaburn party that didnt already have a bard. You wont be able to have more than one song on any of the party members because you are singing. The only way you can have 2 songs is to use instruments - which can only be equipped by a bard.

As for which sub you prefer - look at your party, see what jobs are there and you may need to experiment with each job as a sub (even get a feel for it while leveling it) to see how each will be able to assist your party. Remember - as a whm the party is asking you to join not to help with damage, not to help with all the enfeebles, you are mainly there to keep them alive - utilizing each spell and ability in your magic bag of tricks.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

I've been considering PLD, my problem is that it doesn't seem to GIVE alot for that refresh ability. Sheild mastery would be WONDERFUL...IF I use a sheild. If I pull hate in an EXP party, I'm gonna get caught with my light staff out.

I have all the spells a PLD gets, I can already crank the crap outta my own defense with Stoneskin + fash to buy me casting time, and I seem to have a whole load of HP that just comes naturally with being a hume.

And for that I love the /blm mp boost, the /blm conserve MP, and on 5 big /BLM spells that I use near-constantly.

I also have to take into consideration that I visit my mog house say...once a RL week. I equip one sup and a versatile range of gear, and I'm gone for a very long time. I might hit a skill up group for a few hours, 'detour' to bastok to 'finish' one quest and wind out picking up another and getting mostly through it, derail into giving someone a teleport somewhere, wind out hunting a coffer key...my life as a whitemage is a series of one distraction after another. I carry the lucky tarutaru thing to substitute for Treasure Hunter, and take my BLM everywhere, otherwise I'd never remember to change my jobs.

Of course, since BLM is what I use, you're going to hear nothing from me but pro-blm arguments. I'm such a sheep. Baaa!

[Icemage]

Re: Whats a good sub-job?

I'd probably use /SMN on occasion if I had it available. There are times where it's more useful than /BLM is, particularly in really short but intense NM or BC battles.

Then again, I can also find a use for /DRG (don't laugh until you've seen how good WHM/DRG is at Tiamat ), so take that as you will...


Icemage