The End of an era

[Palin2222]

Re: The End of an era

The extra Resistance on bar spells isn't very noticable. Seeing as how it is based off of Enhancing magic, it makes sence that Whm would be better, but still and I dont see an extra 10 res making THAT much of a difference.

and I have made the distinction that whm Cure spells are heads and sholders above that of other mages. It's just that all the Extra Healing capability (at the expence of everything else) is often not even needed.

KRT monk burn pts? I had thought those were ancient History by now. On Caitsith, KRT is vertually empty. Most people perfer to lvl in ToAU area's. Kinda cool that whm are the Perfered healer for an Obsolete form of Meritiing.

But that still leaves BCNM's and missions. what about those?

[Icemage]

Re: The End of an era

The extra Resistance on bar spells isn't very noticable. Seeing as how it is based off of Enhancing magic, it makes sence that Whm would be better, but still and I dont see an extra 10 res making THAT much of a difference.

When you see your tanks taking 60 damage instead of 250 damage per hit at Tiamat, you'll understand the difference.

and I have made the distinction that whm Cure spells are heads and sholders above that of other mages. It's just that all the Extra Healing capability (at the expence of everything else) is often not even needed.

It's not the amount of healing that's significant at end-game. It's the amount of enmity generated. Cure V generates about the same enmity as Cure III, and is easily reduced to virtually nothing with enough -enmity. Other jobs can only use Cure III, Cure IV, or Magic Fruit, all of which have much higher enmity ratings. You'll never see a RDM or Blue Mage playing main healer in most HNM battles because they just rack up hate way too fast when tanks are taking 200-500 damage per hit.

KRT monk burn pts? I had thought those were ancient History by now. On Caitsith, KRT is vertually empty. Most people perfer to lvl in ToAU area's. Kinda cool that whm are the Perfered healer for an Obsolete form of Meritiing.

Obsolete in what way? Blizzard IV is worth some 400K on Midgardsormr, and my last KRT party on WHM last week racked in some 11K per hour with a RDM BRD WHM MNK MNK MNK setup.

But that still leaves BCNM's and missions. what about those?

WHMs still shine in lots of battles. You need a WHM for a standard setup in Wild Wild Whiskers (Stona). WHMs are great at Operation Desert Swarm too. I dare you to try CoP 8-3 When Angels Fall without a WHM now that manaburning isn't an option. Ditto for Divine Might. Dynamis withour Raise II/III? You're joking, right?

I use my WHM job as much if not more than my Bard job. There's plenty of ways to contribute if you learn what WHM can really do and show it.


Icemage

[Palin2222]

Re: The End of an era

When you see your tanks taking 60 damage instead of 250 damage per hit at Tiamat, you'll understand the difference.

Exactly... tiamat. Tiamat isn't isn't exactly something you fight everyday... or ever. Thats not normal stuff.

It's not the amount of healing that's significant at end-game. It's the amount of enmity generated. Cure V generates about the same enmity as Cure III, and is easily reduced to virtually nothing with enough -enmity. Other jobs can only use Cure III, Cure IV, or Magic Fruit, all of which have much higher enmity ratings. You'll never see a RDM or Blue Mage playing main healer in most HNM battles because they just rack up hate way too fast when tanks are taking 200-500 damage per hit.

I've seen a few Rdm's main healing for HNM. Especially when we run short on Whm's. Same with Smn. I am not sure about the emn gained form cV. I could have swarn that it was a lot less then that of cIII. but thats not either here nor there. But I am not talking about HNM situations. Not everyone does HNM's.

Obsolete in what way? Blizzard IV is worth some 400K on Midgardsormr, and my last KRT party on WHM last week racked in some 11K per hour with a RDM BRD WHM MNK MNK MNK setup.

Obsolete in the way that no one does it anymore on my server. KRT is virtually empty. You'll be lucky to get 5k for Blizzard IV on my server. I am sure that your 11k an hour is very nice. but it just doesn't compair to 15k-18k an hour that you can get in ToAU. With that exact same pt set up you described.

WHMs still shine in lots of battles. You need a WHM for a standard setup in Wild Wild Whiskers (Stona). WHMs are great at Operation Desert Swarm too. I dare you to try CoP 8-3 When Angels Fall without a WHM now that manaburning isn't an option. Ditto for Divine Might. Dynamis withour Raise II/III? You're joking, right?

A whitemage asked to come jsut for RII/RIII? thats a surprise. I've never even heard of Wild wild whiskers. It drop anything good? But they do make softs. I have been turned down for 3 ODS runs, becuase I wasn't efficient enough, and they would rather have a Rdm.

[Icemage]

Re: The End of an era

Exactly... tiamat. Tiamat isn't isn't exactly something you fight everyday... or ever. Thats not normal stuff.

It is for me.

I've seen a few Rdm's main healing for HNM. Especially when we run short on Whm's. Same with Smn. I am not sure about the emn gained form cV. I could have swarn that it was a lot less then that of cIII. but thats not either here nor there. But I am not talking about HNM situations. Not everyone does HNM's.

Look at your own wording: "run short on WHMs"

Seriously, no one who knows what they are doing brings anything but WHMs to the table as main healers in anything remotely difficult; Dynamis, Limbus, Sea, Sky, NM battles that last longer than 15 minutes. It isn't that other jobs can't heal, but none of them bring the same set of tools to the table - Protectra, Shellra, status removal, Regens, Cure V, Raises, and now with the new merits, Martyr and Devotion.

Obsolete in the way that no one does it anymore on my server. KRT is virtually empty. You'll be lucky to get 5k for Blizzard IV on my server. I am sure that your 11k an hour is very nice. but it just doesn't compair to 15k-18k an hour that you can get in ToAU. With that exact same pt set up you described.

Sure, you can earn 15-18K per hour IF you can get Bhaflau Thickets mostly to yourself. Good luck having that happen. Usually on Midgardsormr there's as many as 8 parties in the zone at all times, which makes it very hard to do continuous chaining. It can be done, it's just difficult, stressful, and makes it difficult to manage better than 12K XP/hr even with the XP bonuses from Sanction.

Personally, I'm perfectly happy with anything over 10K per hour; the fact that you don't have to fight other parties for spawns in KRT makes it a big plus.

A whitemage asked to come jsut for RII/RIII? thats a surprise. I've never even heard of Wild wild whiskers. It drop anything good? But they do make softs. I have been turned down for 3 ODS runs, becuase I wasn't efficient enough, and they would rather have a Rdm.

Wild Wild Whiskers drops the oh-so-very-nice Penitent's Rope, among other things.

And no, there is no "soft". You can't use medicine on other players, and you can't use it yourself when you're petrified. No medicine in FFXI removes petrification.

Are you frustrated by your inability to do ODS just because you're a WHM? If you want to do a specific BCNM, either find a strategy that works with your chosen job, or level a job that's more appropriate. There's no law that gives every job a God-given right to be able to participate in every BCNM that exists. Oh, and I did the majority of my Chains of Promathia missions on WHM, too.

You say WHM isn't worth it; I say it is. The difference is in the activities we do. In virtually every LS event I've attended in the past 2 years there have been WHMs. Limbus, Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Nidhogg, Aspidochelone, King Behemoth, Bahamut, Vrtra, Jomungand, Tiamat, Cerberus, whatever. I've done all of them on WHM, and never felt like I wasn't contributing in a vital way.

Don't denigrate the job overall simply because it doesn't conform to the specific activities you'd like to do. There are a large number of activities that require WHMs; the fact that you aren't doing some of them is a problem for you, not the job.


Icemage

[Herrisa]

Re: The End of an era

/rant on

It's very annoying to keep getting bothered for teleports, raises, and everything else if you're not anon. Even if they see you're anon, once they /check you it's either "Can you help me?", "Teleport please", "My friend needs a raise", or the dreaded "{Hello!}". It's to the point that I even sometimes refuse ls requests.

- I'm sorry you're dead, but I'm not dropping everything to go running all the way across the world to raise you.

- I'm sorry you're dead again, but I'm busy so either wait for somebody or learn from your mistakes, suck it up, and hp it.

- Your dead friend is where? You're joking right?

- I'm sorry you have to run to Bastok, but I'm not teleporting from Windurst to Holla and then running myself to Sandy just so you can get a teleport Dem.

- I'm sorry you can't finish your quest, but I'm not stopping my own quest to help with yours.

- I'm anon. What does that tell you?

No, these are not made up. These are requests I have recieved and am constantly recieving yet. Yeah, it does make me mean, but as a whm it seems you have to be mean to survive to 75.

I agree the WHM job does need some overhauling. Why can't WHM have their own--not subbed--MP-regain mechanism? Every other mage class has it. Heck, even pld have it now. Are they afraid we'll become over-powered? Godly whm that will over take the world and become the 'leet job everyone wants? Bards and Rdm jobs will never be asked to party again? Smn might get stuck actually summoning their avatars? We'll outdamage blm and they will become a dead weight? We'll solo IT's because of our 'leet melee skills? Our Banish III spell will destroy all before it and whms will only Banish-burn the second they get it? Where is the counter-argument that an inherient mp-regain for whm will destroy the game balance, eliminating other jobs from competition?

I'm sick and tired of being the weakest job in the game. Mainly because it's just not occasionally, but it's... all... the... freaking... time. We can barely melee, our burst damage is laughable, we can enfeeble only if we're lucky and have a few million gils worth of gear, subbed spells are useless except for the occasional ES+Sleep from /blm--and then we'll be lucky to have it last longer than 30 seconds-- or AA from /smn which may or may not block three hits.

Would it be too much to ask for an enemy we're good against? Where Banish actually does do pretty good damage, and where our other club skills do damage and not just Hexa? I worked hard for Black Halo, it would have been nice if it would actually DO something besides look pretty.


/rant off

I feel much better getting that out.

Double Post Edited:
I would like to add by saying that there really isn't a decrease in demand for whm. If you want to see a decrease in demand, go haunt some of the melee boards. At least we don't get stuck waiting for days, weeks, even months (know a few monks) for an invite. Most of them end up forming their own parties and they usually end up looking for 3 types of jobs: tank, refresher, and healer. We can't tank, we can't refresh, but we are superb healers and they'll snatch us up as fast as any other "healer" job.

Yes, there are a few BCNMs that we can't do, but then we make up for it for being pretty much requirements for end-game activities. Dynamis without whms? Ouch.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: The End of an era

Hey Iris, want to do a Kill as many things as whm can thing? XD

I'd love to if I knew what it was.

On a side note, I set a new dmg record (taken, not giving out <.<) last night.

I'd just canceled and re-casted Stoneskin last night while doing Ramuh Prime (I was feeling supersitious at that exact moment for some reason)

Just as the spell casts, I see "Ramuh Prime readies Judgement Bolt."

Next thing I knew I was face-down eating thunder-flavored dirt, (Shockingly good, really...) and there in the log was my taking 1300 odd damage.

Owsie-wowsie, now I know why that poor taru hurts all over.

The REALLY hilarious part was my group's PLD asked "has he used his 2-hr yet?" about .25 of a second before Judgemnt Bolt hit.

We were all like "Well...that answers that question."

[Icemage]

Re: The End of an era

I'
Next thing I knew I was face-down eating thunder-flavored dirt, (Shockingly good, really...) and there in the log was my taking 1300 odd damage.

1300+ from Ramuh Prime? What level are you?

I don't think Ramuh's Judgement Bolt has ever hit me for anything other than 0 damage with Stoneskin and Barthundra up... (yes, I know you were recasting Stoneskin but that wouldn't have saved you most likely, since Stoneskin absorbs a max of 350 damage )


Icemage

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: The End of an era

1300+ from Ramuh Prime? What level are you?

I don't think Ramuh's Judgement Bolt has ever hit me for anything other than 0 damage with Stoneskin and Barthundra up... (yes, I know you were recasting Stoneskin but that wouldn't have saved you most likely, since Stoneskin absorbs a max of 350 damage )


Icemage

Level 65, Barthundra was up several times (me, 75WHM, 75PLD/36WHM, and some third member with /WHM) and like I said, I had fresh stoneskin up. (Was done casting, not was casting). The 75WHM also showed off her pretty protect and spell V set.

I think my stoneskin runs about 280~300 right now, but I haven't calculated it out in awhile.

Even if it ran at 300, I was still about 85 HP short of survival.

That's the first real "one-shotting" I've had in awhile, though.

That and if I want to be like Baralie and take 4k+ damage from an EP tonberry at level 75, I have to start practicing. ^_^;;

[Palin2222]

Re: The End of an era

Are you frustrated by your inability to do ODS just because you're a WHM? If you want to do a specific BCNM, either find a strategy that works with your chosen job, or level a job that's more appropriate. There's no law that gives every job a God-given right to be able to participate in every BCNM that exists. Oh, and I did the majority of my Chains of Promathia missions on WHM, too.

You say WHM isn't worth it; I say it is. The difference is in the activities we do. In virtually every LS event I've attended in the past 2 years there have been WHMs. Limbus, Sky, Sea, Dynamis, Nidhogg, Aspidochelone, King Behemoth, Bahamut, Vrtra, Jomungand, Tiamat, Cerberus, whatever. I've done all of them on WHM, and never felt like I wasn't contributing in a vital way.

Don't denigrate the job overall simply because it doesn't conform to the specific activities you'd like to do. There are a large number of activities that require WHMs; the fact that you aren't doing some of them is a problem for you, not the job.


Icemage

Look Ice... I dont want to start a fight with you. I never did. I never Said that I wanted a "God-given right to be able to participate in every BCNM that exsits" I'm not "denigrating the job overall simply because it doesn't conform to the specific activities I'd like to do." I Dont know where that came from. I'm not talking about endgame. Yeah sure, it's there. If your lucky enough to do it, great. Most people cant. My Shell cant handle Wryms. Thats hardly my fault. I'm saying there are problems with the job. You cant denigh that they exist. Sky, for what it is, is fun. I contribute as much to the over all accomplishments of the shell as the next guy. But get a fraction of the rewards. There is a reason why 90% of the whm you see are decked out in Blessed gear. It's simply the best gear that a whm can get. But that fits the whm motif. Putting others before yourself. Now I'm not some one that is going to complain about not getting enough drop, But still... getting SOMETHING for my time and effort would be nice. But thats just not going to happen... because there is, quite simply, nothing for us to get in endgame. If you dont mind getting punished for getting a drop... you can have the Zenith Crown. But thats not really for whm...

you'll notice a trend with the following...

We're needed for the BCNM Divine Might. But not one of the earings will help us. Even the one that comes off the Pld/Whm... doesn't help us at all.

We're needed for the Gods in sky. You can get a parking ticket. (aka abjuration) thats about it

We're needed for Wyrms and Elder Wyrms. Wont get anything usefull from them. You can get another Parking ticket... for a Tunic that doesn't help you at all.

We're needed In Dynamis. Not sure about you... but I am 0/22 (these are not counting Dynamins Bastok) for even seeing a whm relic Drop. I've seen at least 25 ninja Drops. I've heard that milage can very on this and that Luck plays a Huge role for it. Some people say that Some sets are rarer then others, not sure what to believe, but I wouldn't be surprised if Whm was one of the rarer sets. At least you can sell your currency >.> you surely wont be waisting it on Mjollnir.

While not neccesarily needed for Aquaduct Subligar runs. The Nimbus Dublet is beond horrable for whm. The Only one we can get, and it is absolute garbage. You would be better off with a seer's tunic. Good luck finding a Fomor Whitemage.

Never been to sea, I have heard there are some drops down there that whm can use. Though nothing that I would use over what I currently Have.

Does Cerberious Drop anything good?


Like I said, I am not one to get all bent out of shape because I didn't get something, but still it would be nice if there were something to get.

[Shanisasha]

Re: The End of an era

I should point out: Sometimes the Primes have the ability to deal enormous amounts of damage to one person. It seems to be random. I took 1200+ from Titan one day, 2 weeks later he barely got through stoneskin.

The NIN tanking Shiva one time laughed off my suggestion to come with him, I came anyway as WHM, he ate 1200 Diamond Dust. He had no idea how it was possible, because it had never happened to him before. As far as I can tell, it's a completely random effect and usually only affects one person.

It blows for that person too

[Kuura]

Re: The End of an era

I should point out: Sometimes the Primes have the ability to deal enormous amounts of damage to one person. It seems to be random. I took 1200+ from Titan one day, 2 weeks later he barely got through stoneskin.

The NIN tanking Shiva one time laughed off my suggestion to come with him, I came anyway as WHM, he ate 1200 Diamond Dust. He had no idea how it was possible, because it had never happened to him before. As far as I can tell, it's a completely random effect and usually only affects one person.

It blows for that person too

Kind of off topic, but.... there is alot of factors that go into damage. Lots of stats are checked and compaired, the day an moon is factered in, seemingly random numbers are generated and through in the equaition. Resistances are applied and overall damage is dished out.

As a side note worth pointing out, even with a huge elemental resistance (i.e. Bar-element-ra, and Elemental Carols) it is still possable to take full damage from that element. All your resistances do is increase the chance of Resisting. They dont garentee protection from that element.

[Renaissance 2K]

Re: The End of an era

I really have nothing to contribute to this thread except that I also hate when people refuse to invite WHM because it "gimps EXP" but then /shout or /tell for a Raise III when (not "if"... "when") something goes wrong.

I used to tell them to ask my party leader if I could Raise them, figuring the party leader would refuse. Then, people started lying to my party leaders saying that they were a friend of mine or something.

Now, I think I just have to stick a new /seacom up and bear the flames.

"I will not inconvenience
my party to Raise III
yours. Please don't ask."

Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to do what it takes to get there. You want the security of a Raise III, but you won't invite a WHM. That just shows how selfish some people can be. Next, we'll be swapping out melees in TP burn parties.