Take a stand for politeness!

[Nakti]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

The way I see it, there are 2 options for the party.

1) The first Sneak and Invis is provided by the WHM for each party member and then it's RUN RUN RUN to the camp and everyone keeps Sneak/Invis up themselves with their own oils and powders.

2) If the WHM is expected to Sneak/Invis the entire party for the entire length of the trip to the camp, the party must remain close together at all times and warn the WHM immediately if something is wearing.

WHMs do not have Auto-Chainspell, Auto-Manafont, or Auto-be-not-aggrod. Sneak and Invis are very random in how long they last. There have been times when I've cast Sneak, cast Invis, and then Sneak is immediately wearing. Other times, I'll cast Sneak and Invis and they'll last the entire length of a zone. Especially when it comes to Invis, if you cast Invis or use powders yourself, you can "overwrite" a wearing Invis without ever becoming visible. If you rely on an outside Invis, you risk not only yourself being aggro'd but your WHM as well as their Invis falls off to put yours back on.

The chances that a WHM can keep 6 people Sneak/Invis'd without aggro through an area they and others might be unfamiliar with...

ok, I've stopped laughing now. There are probably some of you who are lucky that way. ^^

So far, the only situations where I had to Sneak/Invis other people was to help LS members and one or both of us would sometimes die due to the various problems inherent in keeping more than yourself hidden. For the most part, party members have either carried oils and powders (I carry a stack each myself) or the camps have been accessible via Chocobo or running through non-aggro areas.

[Murphie]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

Ok, see? No. It is not a WHM's responsibility as an extension of their job to Sneak and Invis every single member of the party to get them across a dangerous zone. That is merely a bonus that you sometimes get for having a WHM along.

It is the responsibility of every member of the party to bring along the necessary items to get to and from camp and to function effectively once there. That means Sneak/Invis meds, and a warp item just in case. If the WHM/RDM/SMN/BRD elects to help you across the zone, then good for you, because they saved you some gil on powder and oil. But it is not their job to babysit five other people through the zone, depleting their MP pool and putting them in danger every time they have to drop their own sneak/invis in order to recast it on your cheap/lazy ass.

Saying that it's a WHM's job to do this is like how people used to say that a PLD's job was to die for the party. Which isn't true at all, and neither is this.

[Ellipses]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

Paladins have Cure spells. It is a Paladin's responsibility to main heal a pick-up party. Black Mages can equip Pebbles. It is the Black Mage's responsibility to pull. DRG/WAR can Provoke. It is the DRG/WAR's responsibility to main tank.

[Shanisasha]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

I have to admit, I don't think it's my job to get the melees to camp safely. For all I care, we could just meet at our designated camp. Everyone can find they're own way through.

Parties choose to go to camps together because it's safer. I'm a mage. I carry oils and powders. Why? Fair example: Kuftal tunnel. I'd like to see you nice people try to sneak your melees through it on wind weather.

I didn't think so.

Sneak and Invis are not the be all end all. Oils and Powders are there to guarantee safety that sometimes, a whitemage can't. Is it a good thing for the whitemage to help? No issues there. If I can help, I will. Is it the whitemage's JOB to sneak/invis people? I dont think so, sorry.

As I said. I've offered to synth the meds for melees before, I've outright given them oils and powders. Because if an air elly spawns in my path, chances are I'm going to die if you demand i sneak you. And I'd rather not die getting to camp. I play melee jobs as well, and you'll never see me without oils and powders.

[Taskmage]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

I consider it a rare luxury to party with people intelligent/considerate enough to bring their own oils and powders, so I always start sneaking/invising people as soon as soon as we get to the edge of an aggro zone. Then again, I consider it a rare luxury to party with nins that use Hojo, so maybe I'm just used to bad players.

But I treat it as part of my job. I get slightly offended if someone does actually ask, like it was Haste or somesuch. I know you need it, if you don't have it I'm probably waiting on the recast. Now if someone's bad about communicating that it's wearing or staying together, that's on their own head. I take no responsibility for that. But one cast is often sufficient unless the camp is in the back of Boyahda or Onzozo or something.

I'm all for politeness, but ultimately it's your responsibility to make the party as safe and efficient as possible no matter what job you're playing. So if you see something that needs to be done and it's something you're able to do, a really good player would step up and do it without saying anything. That's my viewpoint.

[Murphie]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

But I treat it as part of my job. I get slightly offended if someone does actually ask, like it was Haste or somesuch. I know you need it, if you don't have it I'm probably waiting on the recast. Now if someone's bad about communicating that it's wearing or staying together, that's on their own head. I take no responsibility for that. But one cast is often sufficient unless the camp is in the back of Boyahda or Onzozo or something.

I'm all for politeness, but ultimately it's your responsibility to make the party as safe and efficient as possible no matter what job you're playing. So if you see something that needs to be done and it's something you're able to do, a really good player would step up and do it without saying anything. That's my viewpoint.

Oh, absolutely. I do the same thing, really. But I do balk at the idea that it's my responsibility to ensure that they can get around zones like this. I don't mind sneaking/invising folks. But when they stop carrying meds because "it's your job", that's when I draw the line.

[DakAttack]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

A lot of mages I party with willingly wait and toss you something before you enter dangerous territory, but unless they're standing right there next to you when it wears you're on your own.

I think they know that their spells are very random, and can wear off at any moment, and a few take pleasure in knowing your life is no longer in your own hands. That's usually why I prefer oils and powders, because they're reliable.

[Aeolus]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

So if you get invited to a PT we should all ask you politely to teleport? If we dont no exp, if you dont invisi, no exp. Your a whm, get over it. Should a ninja be asked politely to cast Utsusemi, should you ask the blm to MB? Want me to ask the thf to pull every time a monster dies? I dont get why its such a problem, its not like your the only one keeping the party alive, if i have to ask you everytime I need sneak then you can ask me to engage every monster we fight ok?. Also ppl are assholes sometimes. Its just a game. Did posting a rant about how someone treated you on a game make your day just that bit better? Cause this post sure made mine.

[Raydeus]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

Paladins have Cure spells. It is a Paladin's responsibility to main heal a pick-up party. Black Mages can equip Pebbles. It is the Black Mage's responsibility to pull. DRG/WAR can Provoke. It is the DRG/WAR's responsibility to main tank.

I see you conveniently left a BRD's role in the party out, but you can't trick me! BRDs can sing, so it's their responsability to entertain the party if if they have down time, it's also their responsbility to sing Jpop/Jrock songs since the game is Japanese.

If only they would stop being so cheap and carry some batteries they could use an electric harp or something...

[Linra]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

So if you get invited to a PT we should all ask you politely to teleport? If we dont no exp, if you dont invisi, no exp. Your a whm, get over it. Should a ninja be asked politely to cast Utsusemi, should you ask the blm to MB? Want me to ask the thf to pull every time a monster dies? I dont get why its such a problem, its not like your the only one keeping the party alive, if i have to ask you everytime I need sneak then you can ask me to engage every monster we fight ok?. Also ppl are assholes sometimes. Its just a game. Did posting a rant about how someone treated you on a game make your day just that bit better? Cause this post sure made mine.

Okay now I understand fully, but no this isn't true at all. I haven't had to sneak/invisible an entire party before. The most I've had is 4 people including myself, all linkshell friends. And I can say right now it's a pain. I remember when me and 2 of my friends were doing the 3 adanced job quests. I think 2 of them required us to walk through Imps and those tiny mobs. But one of them subbed whm to help with sneaks.

If I'm in a pick up group, yes you're going to have to ask me for a Teleport, yes you're going to have to ask me for sneaks when we get to the zone. Why? Because it'll probably be my first time going there to be honest. And if it isn't, a simple /tell from the leader asking "We're going to need a Teleport-XXXXX, okay?" Would be perfect to me.

At the beginning of the zone, "May I have a sneak/invis to save on potions?" I'm sure that would make tons of white mages feel extermely happy that you took 5 seconds of your time to be better then the jerks all around. Would it kill you so much? And no, from what I'm gathering Sneak/Invisible Potions are better then the spells? Potions aren't better then Cure because I'm sure something like that would drain your pocket much faster then anything.

And yes you SHOULD have to ask everytime sneak is wearing. No, "May I have another sneak please?" isn't needed, but "Sneak's wearing", that IS needed and if you can't even do that you can either use these potions, or continue to walk and pray you make it. I do know that if the party can't stay in a group to make life easier on the White mage, then in my opinion they should do it alone.

If you can't pull yourself to be nice and polite to your fellow party member/human being, then why should you expect anything like that from them?

And is it really a Black Mages job to pull? (That's actually a real question) I mean when would they get time to rest? o.o

[Murphie]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

So if you get invited to a PT we should all ask you politely to teleport? If we dont no exp, if you dont invisi, no exp. Your a whm, get over it. Should a ninja be asked politely to cast Utsusemi, should you ask the blm to MB? Want me to ask the thf to pull every time a monster dies? I dont get why its such a problem, its not like your the only one keeping the party alive, if i have to ask you everytime I need sneak then you can ask me to engage every monster we fight ok?. Also ppl are assholes sometimes. Its just a game. Did posting a rant about how someone treated you on a game make your day just that bit better? Cause this post sure made mine.

Haven't we already had this conversation? Didn't you go off like this then too? Didn't we also after a few more posts have a better understanding of the situation? If so, then what is this all about?

I am happy to cast an initial sneak and/or invis on a party member as we enter a dangerous zone. But keeping up with the sneak/invis of six party members (everyone else, and myself) isn't any fun, and can be very dangerous. Even I carry Oil and Powder around in case there are magic aggro mobs nearby. If you didn't bring any, and dropping mine to resneak/invis you is going to get me killed, then I'm not going to do it.

Bring Oil and Powder, period.

[Medalink]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

Another thing SMN gets shafted into.. /sigh
I actually never ever sneak/invisi someone on SMN, (Only on my WHM).

Reason: When I pt as SMN theres no R2 or R3. 1 mess up will cost me far more than 2 stacks of medicine, If people fail to relize this, they can just kick me from the pt. Seems to be happening alot latley.

And when I am WHM, if they run ahead, They will not get sneak/invisi. If your not gonna stay with me, then I will not help you. A WHM has its limits.

Medalink

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

1 First off.

I have no PROBLEM sneaking and invising people. If you ask, you will get it.

THis is not me saying WHM shouldn't S/I anyone at all.

2 Second off. A lot of people DO bring teir own oils/powders, and I've had it happen where my sneak and their sneak collide and 'bump' each other and the person is left without sneak. This is very hard to notice, happens more often than it ought to, and usually results in death after agro.


Asking for sneak is like asking to be hasted by the redmage instead of the whitemage, it's simply a matter of "whose doing what".

I see a lot of party leaders ask for specific weaponskills, to make like a skillchain or something. (sarcasm alert on the last half of that sentence) Are you saying people should just automatically know what weaponskills to make what skillchain and what magicburst element?



All I'm asking for are two small words. "Sneak, Please."

If this most basic comment is too much for you to handle, you are free to never party with me or speak to me. Infact, if it's too much for you to handle, I'd prefer you didn't.






And as a side note: I do mention it ahead of the time in parties, especially if they look like they don't have their stuff organized. And sometimes I get an "Ok", other times I get "LOL OMG WTF U TALKIN BOUT ASK 4 SNK, SNK IS WHM JOB" And yes, in one recent party and others that have become a foggy amgalate in my memory, I have actually gotten bitched out for requesting that people say so if they need sneak.

(As a note, yes it is common for an EXP party to ask their WHM to teleport them, simply out of convenience and proximity. However, I've yet to have a party where nobody tells me where to teleport to, and as far as I'm concerned, that's polite enough. I'm not the queen of england and I don't demand formality, just basic human decency.)




As was noted before, there is a difference between sneak/invis and curing someone, as far as party dynamics go.



My bottom line: I maintain my stand, if you want sneak-invis, you are simply going to have to let me know, either in PT chat or private tell.

I would like it if other whitemages would stand with me on this, so that it became an accepted norm to ask politely.

If other whitemages refuse...oh well. That doesn't alter my stand, it just makes it a little more difficult.

[Sigmara]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

As a RDM, I carry oils and powders and I expect others to do so.

Yes, I'll happily S/I yourself, but only if you ask in a safe spot.

Why waiting to be asked ? Simple : some peoples like their oils better and will use them. So what do you say to the guy who just used an oil that had no effect because you 30 sec sneak landed just before ?

I have already died from S/I peoples because I aggroed when recasting on them ( some peoples just stand in front of mobs ). And what did they do ? Nothing they just starred at me deing. S/I is not like curing, hatsting or whatever, casting these last spells is far from being as dangerous as casting S/I.

About the teleport thing, I would wait to be asked or ask everyone if they are ready before teleporting. Never got the joke of missing a member because he suddently ran to AH ?

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Take a stand for politeness!

I got to say i agree with Irisjir, i always ask the whm for an intial sneak (if i am not mageing it myself) and or invis (if i am /nin) and i do believe it is polite. Sometimes i get beaten to the punch and one of the mage types will have already done one or both, but everyone, including mages, should invest in their own stealth tools, at the very least after like lvl30, certainly after lvl40. Besides, well with me outside my statics anyway, i very rarely get picked up into a intial pt, i am generally picked up as a replacement and need to get to the pt camp my own self so stealth becomes crucial.