White Mage DD /nin Mojo

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

I'm sure I don't crit near as often as, say, melee, but I already drool over how often I crit. I guess I expected that it would be less than it is because I'm a mage. Either way though, I can say for certain that +10% will definitly be noticed (though it would only be +4% on the non-morgenstern hand).

Crazy. I'm getting hyped up about xp/merit parties again! Every time I think I've finally given up on leveling and SWEAR I'm only going to do it to maintain a buffer for endgame activites, I end up finding a reason to keep going.

Really though, its a shame that WHM have such a wide selection of +crit on staves/poles, and such limited (one) selection on muals/hammers/clubs. To say nothing about the complete lack of non-weapon +Crit%.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

That's close to what I'm looking at, but there are some things you have different than what I've got. I don't have the joy of Rajas ring, as Tamas is more important to me overall (though if I can establish myself within my circle of endgame budies as viable DD that might change).

Actually, now looking at it, I might go with Rajas anyhow. As Tamas, while nice, offers little over all that will actually make a marked difference to my job as a main healer. Thanks for that tip.

Leads me to the next question: Just how much of a difference does the +5 Store TP help? Do you have a % by chance on how much that affects your TP? Hexa spam should be the obvious goal i'm going for, and i'm trying to pick and choose to get every last extra bit of TP I can muster.

[Tirrock]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

I don't think store TP +5 is much, but I can go test it out. I'm not really doing anything right now anyway...

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

Well, if I did Armondo's calculations right, then Morgenstern + Sea Robber = 8tp per weapon (16tp per attack). Even it comes out to be one or two extra TP per attack and thats it, it would still rock. God forbid if it were an extra +5tp per attack @.@

Double Post Edited:
Consequently, I just asked LS. One LS mate says that first 5 +store tp = 10%, and each +1 after that = +1%, regardless of if that store TP is from jt, armor, weapons, etc. Not saying that is correct, and its hearsay at best.

Double Post Edited:
Poked around and got a more solid answer. I prolly just misunderstood what my ls mate meant. Each +1 TP = +.1 tp. So for example, if you are gaining +8.5 TP per hit, you TP gain will go from 0 > 8 > 17. Whereas with Rajas ring it will go from 0 > 9 > 18. So really, with dual wield you will see a +1 tp with every attack round (from hitting once with each weapon) I would assume. Combines with the other +stats of Rajas ring, that looks really appealing.

Once again we see how a small difference adds up really quickly. +15% haste from gear + 15% haste with spells + Dual weild 2 + earing + ring and that store TP +.5% adds up extremely quickly.

[Tirrock]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

Stoneskin is put up on the tests so I don't get tainted results by the monsters hitting me. I also swaped weapons so my TP would be 0 at the end of each test.

No store TP - Pluto's staff (356 delay)
TP Gain - 9 > 18 > 27 > 36 > 46 > 55 > 64 > 73 > 82 > 92 > 101 > 110 > 119 > 128 > 138 > 147 > 156 > 165 > 174 > 184 > 193 > 202 > 211 > 220 > 230 > 239 > 248 > 257 > 266 > 276 > 285 > 294 > 300
11 swings to hit 100% TP. 22 to 200%. 33 to 300%

+1 Store TP (brutal earring) - Pluto's staff (356 delay)
9 > 18 > 27 > 36 > 46 > 55 > *73 > 82 > 92 > 101 > 110 > *128 > 138 > 147 > 156 > 165 > 174 > 184 > 193 > 202 > 211 > 220 > 230 > 239 > 248 > 257 > 266 > 276 > 285 > 294 > 300
* = Double attack.
11 hits to 100%. 22 to 200%. 33 to 300%.

+5 Store TP (Raja's Ring) - Pluto's staff (356 delay)
9 > 19 > 28 > 38 > 48 > 57 > 67 > 76 > 86 > 96 > 105 > 115 > 124 > 134 > 144 > 153 > 163 > 172 > 182 > 192 > 201 > 211 > 220 > 230 > 240 > 249 > 259 > 268 > 278 > 288 > 297 > 300
11 hits to 100%. 21 to 200%. 32 to 300%.

+6 Store TP (rajas/brutal) - Pluto's staff (356 delay)
9 > 19 > 29 > 38 > 48 > 58 > 67 > 77 > 87 > 97 > 106 > 116 > 126 > 135 > *155 > 164 > 174 > 184 > 194 > 203 > 213 > 223 > 232 > 242 > 252 > 261 > 271 > 281 > 291 > 300
* = Double attack. I double attacked twice, but the second one had one miss, so it didn't effect TP.
11 hits to 100% TP. 21 to 200%. 31 to 300%

I'm sure somebody has a formula out there somewhere explaining how much TP store TP gives you, but I never found it and I was a bit curious to test it out on a weapon I use quite often.

It's funny to note how +1 Store TP by itself amounts to nothing, although it does matter when it's 5 Store TP vs 6 Store TP.

It looks like +5 Store TP amounted to about 4 TP per 100% in the case of a 356 delay weapon. You'd likely want to use your TP right when you hit 100% while soloing, so the only time that store TP would be useful to you would be if you hit 96% - 99% TP often.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

Awesome. Thanks much for posting that. Clearly much less than was told to me (though the recent TP adjustments might have changed what people know about it and they still using old information.)

[Arris]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

I'm not a tarutaru but as a hume whm/nin I see as if your main is nin. I go for agi and eva equips over mnd and mp gear when soloing. I usually use squid sushi or sole. With stoneskin plus Ni and ichi with blink rdy for when both recast timers are not rdy I've found it easy to tank and duo mobs for my friends.

[Saidee]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

I hate bumping several month old threads, but I've taken recent interest in making a dd whm/nin and I felt that adding to this thread is better than creating a new one.

The setup I'm looking at:

Weapons

Main Hand: Morgenstern (+6% crit)
Off Hand: Seawolf Cudgel (+5 STR, +15 Accuracy, -5 Attack)

TP Gain Gear

Head: Walahra Turban (+5% haste)
Neck: Chivalry Chain (+3 STR, +5 Accuracy, +1 Store TP)
Body: Reverned Mail (-25 MP, -5 MND, +10 Accuracy, +10 Evasion)
Belt: Swift Belt (+4% haste, +3 Accuracy, -5 Attack)
Hands: Blessed Mitts (+5% haste, +7 MND)
Legs: Blessed Trousers (+3% haste, +6 MND)
Feet: Blessed Pumps (+2% haste, +3 MND)
Back: Royal Army Mantle (+2 STR, +2 MND)
Ring: Rajas Ring (+5 STR, +5 DEX, +5 Store TP)
Ring: Aqua Ring (+2 STR, +5 MND, -2 DEX)
Earring: Suppanomimi (Enhance Dual Wield)
Earring: Brutal Earring (Enhance Double Attack)

+34% haste (With haste spell), -20% weapon speed, +33 Accuracy

Hexa Spam Gear

Head: Optical Hat (+10 Accuracy, +10 Evasion)
Neck: Chivalry Chain (+3 STR, +5 Accuracy, +1 Store TP)
Body: Reverned Mail (-25 MP, -5 MND, +10 Accuracy, +10 Evasion)
Belt: Swift Belt (+4% haste, +3 Accuracy, -5 Attack)
Hands: Healer's Mitts +1 (+7 STR, +7 MND)
Legs: Blessed Trousers (+3% haste, +6 MND)
Feet: Mithra RSE (+3 STR)
Back: Royal Army Mantle (+2 STR, +2 MND)
Ring: Rajas Ring (+5 STR, +5 DEX, +5 Store TP)
Ring: Aqua Ring (+2 STR, +5 MND, -2 DEX)
Earring: Coral Earring (+5 Attack)
Earring: Brutal Earring (Enhance Double Attack)

+43 Accuracy, +27 STR, +15 MND

Merits

Max STR
Max Crit
Max Club

[Armando]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

Well, since it's already been bumped, I'd like to explain the workings and the finer points of Store TP, for those of you that are comparing different weapon and Store TP/DD gear setups.

Store TP works like this:
(Base TP per hit) * (1 + StoreTP) = Modified TP

As usual, all decimals after the tenths place are dropped without rounding. This is why with most weapons, the first point of Store TP will not actually cause any change - you need to get at least 10.0 TP per hit before multiplying your TP by 1.01 will result in a change in the tenths. In other words, this is what was going on with the Staves:

9.2 * 1.01 = 9.292 -> 9.2
9.2 * 1.05 = 9.66 -> 9.6
9.2 * 1.06 = 9.752 -> 9.7

The fact that Store TP works by multiplication and not addition is highly significant; if it were addition, Store TP +5 would take, say, a Hornetneedle from 4.7 TP per hit to 5.2, which would represent a 10 to 11% increase in TP gain per hit. Because it's multiplication, it affects all weapons equally. However, this is a phenomenon that one REALLY needs to be aware of if you really want to apply Store TP strategically: TP gaining speed changes in steps, not gradually.

Here's an example. A "standard" 240 Delay Longsword gains 6.4 TP per hit, and attacks every 4 seconds. At 6.4 TP per hit, it would take 16 hits to exceed 100 TP (assuming you start from 0), and at a delay of 4 seconds per swing, that would take 64 seconds. Now, let's assume we apply some Store TP and your TP per hit increases to 6.5 TP per hit. After 15 hits at 6.5 TP per hit, you'd still only have 97.5 TP per hit, which means that although your TP per hit went up, you still need to score 16 hits, and thus you're not actually reaching 100 any faster (UNLESS you're using Vorpal Blade, which would grant you an extra 3 TP if you land all four hits.)

Thus, there are certain ammounts of TP per hit at which the number of hits required to reach 100 TP goes down. There's a rule to this, too, though - the less hits you currently need to reach 100 TP, the bigger the gap between your current TP gain and the ammount of TP per hit you need to WS in one swing less will be. To help you visualize it...

Desired # of hits - Required TP per hit
7 hits - 14.3 TP
6 hits - 16.7 TP
5 hits - 20.0 TP
4 hits - 25.0 TP
3 hits - 33.4 TP
2 hits - 50.0 TP
1 hit - 100 TP

Because of this phenomenon, higher Delay weapons (which have higher TP per hit, and thus a lower number of hits required to reach 100) require a larger ammount of Store TP before they reach the next "step" in TP gain. However, it should be noted that this does NOT mean slower weapons benefit less from Store TP. When the higher TP weapon finally does make the jump, it'll still be proportional to the percentage by which you increased your TP per hit. For example...

You currently have a weapon that gains 14.3 TP per hit, and takes 7 hits to reach 100 TP. You add 17 Store TP, bringing your TP per hit up to 16.7, and lowering the number of hits needed down to 6. A weapon that gains 14.3 TP per hit would have 524 Delay (assuming that was its base ammount of TP, not one that's already been increased by Store TP) and would attack every 8.73 seconds. So, your TP gaining time went from 61.11 to 52.38 seconds. That's a 14.28% decrease in the time needed.

Now consider that previously mentioned 240 Delay Longsword that gains 6.4 TP per hit every 4 seconds. Add Store TP +17 into the equation, and it now gains 7.4 TP per hit, bringing the number of hits needed down from 16 to 14. So, the time needed was cut down from 64 to 56 seconds; the time needed was decreased by 12.50%. Both weapons had their TP per hit increased by ~17%, and in both scenarios the ammount of time needed to reach 100 TP was lowered by comparable ammounts (in fact, the slower weapon had a slight advantage in this scenario, though this is a fluke, since we're dealing with steps and not gradual changes.)

Both weapons benefited roughly equally; the big difference is that for the slow weapon, there was no increase in speed at all for ammounts of Store TP lower than 17, whereas the faster weapon made the same progress, but made small jumps in between. Or, a different way of looking at it is that faster weapons need less Store TP to improve the speed at which they can get to 100 TP, but the improvement will also be much less with each jump. Also, don't forget that any ammount of Store TP that doesn't result in a "jump" in number of hits is essentially wasted; again, we're dealing with steps, and everything in the middle essentially does nothing. Don't equip more Store TP than you need to if you're sacrificing other stats in the process.

To sum it all up, when tampering with Store TP, be sure to take into account the following things:
- Ammount of TP per hit needed before you'll see a decrease in the number of hits needed to reach 100 TP.
- After the first WS, you start off with one hit's worth of TP assuming you land the first hit in the WS, and X extra TP where X is the number of extra hits that landed. If you wanted a more realistic model of how much time it'd take you to reach 100 TP, subtract one hit from the total needed.
- When using multi-hit WS, the extra TP gained may just be enough to cover the gap left and allow you to shave off an extra hit needed, even though under normal circumstances you'd have needed more Store TP. Never forget to take those few points of extra TP into account, as they might just set the bar lower for the ammount of Store Tp you need!
- Obviously, if your hitting rate (as a percentage) suffers more than the ammount of time you saved (again, the percentage is what matters here) by trading off Acc gear for Store TP gear, you're hurting yourself more than helping.

Some final notes: Remember that the percentage by which your TP is increased is applied to your original ammount of TP, not the new one! If you already have some Store TP equipped, adding 5 more Store TP will result in (slightly) less than a 5% increase of what you're currently getting. Oh, and Store TP doesn't increase the ammount of TP you give to the mob, which is in practice hardly ever an issue, but is always good to know. Finally, Store TP DOES affect the ammount of TP you get from being hit, so if you're a PLD tank, you technically get double benefits.

EDIT:

Dual Wield 3 (25% weapon speed reduct)

Items that enhance a trait don't increase the level of the trait, only add to it. Suppanomimi will not give you Dual Wield III, it'll add 5% to whatever Dual Wield level you're at, which in this case would be 15% + 5% = 20%. Also, there's no reason to leave Suppanomimi on for WS; all it'll do is lower your TP gain for that WS, and you could be swapping in some +Attack.

[Saidee]

Re: White Mage DD /nin Mojo

I copy/pasted the gear for the most part from a notepad I have for myself, forgot to change Suppa out for Coral/Merman's when I did weaponskill gear.

I also wasn't aware that enhance features only give for 5% of what's listed.. though that sort of makes Brutal more obvious now since it's speculated to increase double attack chance by 5%. (And probably does increase it by that much).

I can't really see much of any other improvements for the gear, however, if there's something I've overlooked let me know. I know I should probably switch out Swift Belt for Potent Belt, but meh.. It's something I'll probably buy when I have extra money laying around.