Expectations of merit point parties

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

This is not the way a good BRD will sing songs, because if he were to sing ballad then melee buffs he's going to be pulling with min/mad/march/whatever on when he could have double ballad and take advantage of his own refresh.

And I'm talking about roaming pts which brds 99% of the time use /nin sub. Therefore he has no need for ballad and I do.

[Omniblast]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

On merit runs, I usually go with WHM/SMN + Noble's Tunic + Sanction Refresh.
With a bard or red mage, I get 6mp/tick. However, I went with a Bard/Ninja last time and I had the EXACT same problem as you. Without a secondary healer of sorts, it was more difficult to survive with others. I have over 1250+mp, been hitting regen 3/2 & haste mostly, but had to spam cure 5's for the tarutaru warrior/nin's (Spitfire kills tarutaru's and ninja's). Anyways, I don't think that noble's would have helped you any more than it has helped me (it is pretty looking though, as pretty as my reverand mail).

The only benefit of going with a bard, are the minuets that they can stick on the melee, however if they are not giving you ballad, they are making the chains screw up because you don't have the mp to cure them.

[little ninja]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

he didnt keep a mage with song ballad? in my book thats something you learn in brd noob school. that brd failed beyond belief.you did what you could.

[Amele]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

With no other MP users, /SMN would provide the same refresh, all the time, without having to stop to sing, plus more max MP. /BRD is useful in its place, but if you aren't hitting at least two MP users (including yourself), a sub that just plain gives you auto-refresh is usually superior.

With no fast cast, I think it's unlikely he'll have time to run up, sing for the melees, run back and ballad himself.

Anyway, if you don't want to spend big bucks on vermy or noble's, WHM AF2 body also provides the same amount of refresh. It drops in Dynamis-Beaucedine though, so there may be some competition for it.

extensive tests (I'm hunting a link right now, I seem to remember seeing one recently here or at KI) indicate conserve mp to function in the area of 7% conserve on gross mp cost~ with this number as a benchmark we get an mp consumption speed of 300~mp/1min (well, 285.71mp) as the break even point between /blm and /smn for mp efficiency.

with your four most common tp burn spellcasts (cure III, Haste, Regen III, curaga I) all 40-60mp (with another common spell: cure V, a lot higher; and bar-x/flash/regen I alot lower) casting five 'main' spells in one minute is enough to meet the breakeven point.. most good merits get in 2 fights in one minute (~30second killspeed, some are faster than this even) I'll usually need: at least one haste (3 hastes, 2:30 duration, average of 1 haste every :50 seconds~) one regen III (duration of :60~seconds) and then a handful of cure III's (usually 1 or 2 or occasionally additional regens instead) 1 curaga, flash, barspell- over 300mp already, and this is before anything crazy happens (like say, a link that wakes too soon or a melee who pulls hate and gets their shadow recast interrupted etc)

the faster and harder you're casting (tank pt whitemage vs. wyrms comes to mind as an extreme example) the more /blm shines. merit pts, are one of these fast casting situations.

/smn shines in slower cast situations: where you spend a long period of time standing/moving but not actively casting, (questing, sky farming); situations where aerial armor can be useful (dynamis is a shining example) and other 'unique' situations (pulling for a manaburn for instance) where you have a time where you aren't casting but can't rest. yes, you have (~50mp) more as a whm/smn than whm/blm.. but how often are you near your peak in a merit pt?

both subs are very useful; but for fast kill merit pt's where it's 4 or 5 melee trying to solo a mob and you (And maybe a bard or redmage) supporting them, /blm rapidly outstrips /smn for mp efficiency.

[Karinya]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

extensive tests (I'm hunting a link right now, I seem to remember seeing one recently here or at KI) indicate conserve mp to function in the area of 7% conserve on gross mp cost~ with this number as a benchmark we get an mp consumption speed of 300~mp/1min (well, 285.71mp) as the break even point between /blm and /smn for mp efficiency.

Good point, I somehow managed to leave that out of the subjob consideration O.o - but it's another reason /BRD with no other mp users is a questionable choice. You could have /SMN which is at least as good as /BRD, or /BLM which may be even better.

Furthermore, if you *do* have any refresh/ballad (from other pt members, gear or sanction), Conserve MP increases the effectiveness of *that*, too. It stacks multiplicatively with any method of regaining MP you have; Auto-Refresh stacks additively, which is usually weaker.

Regardless, I think it's clear by this point in the thread that the OP's main problem was a bard not adequately taking care of pt responsibilities.


Why is the bard pulling in this party at all? You have *how* many XXX/NINs? Can't one of them be bothered to bring a bow so the bard will have more time to sing? It's one thing for a bard to pull for a manaburn where everyone else in the party needs to be resting and has no good way to survive pulling, but a bard pulling for people with superior armor, HP, ranged attacks and Utsusemi that have nothing else to do between fights anyway? WTF?

[Raydeus]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Why is the bard pulling in this party at all? You have *how* many XXX/NINs? Can't one of them be bothered to bring a bow so the bard will have more time to sing? It's one thing for a bard to pull for a manaburn where everyone else in the party needs to be resting and has no good way to survive pulling.

Because it's much faster that way, a BRD can just give melee and mages their songs and go pull or sleep pull the next mob while everyone else is finishing the mob. BRD's arent doing damage nor need to rest so it's easier for them to pull.

The thing is that some BRDs get kinda confused with all the pulling and song casting and end up over pulling without casting the songs they need to be casting.

Maybe they forget or just give priority to pulling over buffing the party, but either way that usually ends up with MPless mages and 2 mobs on the way (and then someone usually gets killed).

[TaruBST]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

First of all, congratulations on whm75. That's the first lv75 job for me too.

Definitely, it was a bad brd.
I've been to merit point parties a lot.
But there hardly is time when my MP gets below 1/2.

I do have noble's tunic, but it does not make that much of difference.
If my MP is around 50%, it should be at 45% or so without nobles tunic. Could be 47%.

It's just so stupid that brd blames on noble's tunic when his subjob is /nin.

When my whm turned 75, I was so broke that I only had 5 AF pieces plus all the cheap equipments. No one piece of equipment costed more than 100k (light and dark staff used to cost less than 100k then). So, don't worry at all for not having Noble's tunic.

[Rodin]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Honestly, most players that are focused on absolutely having the best gear, usually suck, but think they're doing an awesome job.

I was told that I was one of the best WHMs that some people I've partied with, have ever partied with, lol. This was before I got a Noble's Tunic, or SMN subjob. Does having a Noble's and SMN subjob make me a better player now? Marginally. Skill > Equip > Race. Yes, a Noble's does help conserve MP, and a SMN subjob does give you a little bit of MP per hour. But it's really about conserving MP, getting off that -na spell with speed, knowing what mob's TP move does what, etcetera. A Noble's Tunic and SMN sub will only help you go a little bit longer, IMO. Although the +10% Cure Potency from it is very nice.

I have a merit mini-set. We're all experienced players, and know what we're doing. Many of us have a lot of merits. I'm the minority though, I have only 2 merits (+20MP). I party with:

A RNG/WAR who can kill a mob that has 50% health. His Sidewinders are incredible. He has damn near capped merits, and crazy gear.

A DRK/WAR who has close to capped Scythe merit points. He averages 1,100 DMG per Guillotine he does. He's going to have capped scythe by the end of the week, and he will start working on STR and Critical Hit + next week.

A BST/NIN (Yes, I said Beastmaster/Ninja.) Who has incredible gear. If anyone says BST/NIN is a crappy DD, I want you to give me your address. I will call up Carlos Mencia so he can come to your house and "DIT DEE DEE" right in your face. This BST is crazy, Capped Axe merits, capped STR merits, and almost done capping Crit hit +, Temperance Torque and Axe. Rajas Ring, Hauberk, Dusk gear......+20% haste overall. 700+ Rampages, which are constant, and he has farmed a crap load of Virtue Stones, which means he has a very nice double attack proc rate, and that's topped with his pet damage.

We have a taru BRD/WHM who not only pulls and sleeps, but has close to capped (not sure which level) MP merits. He has 500 MP, and isn't shy about spamming Curagas . He never misses a beat with ballad, or haste songs. (We don't use attack or STR songs, since basically we do fine enough w/o them, lol.)

A NIN/WAR who has capped Katana merits, and is working on STR and Critical Hit + merits. He does 1,000 + Jins easily, and consistently. He has a lot of STR gear, lol.

And then there's me. With my whopping 2 merits, lol. I have about 1091 MP with /SMN and no food. But I work quickly and ruthlessly, with my spells. That makes all the difference compared to the other WHMs.

Total XP per hour is about 15,000 XP. Our RNG has parsed up to 18,000 XP/HR in a party though. It was a good day.

Basically, we can cap merits in about a week, and are working for everyone to achieve that uber, fully merited state. But there's still a LONG way to go.

[Palom_FF]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Why is the bard pulling in this party at all? You have *how* many XXX/NINs? Can't one of them be bothered to bring a bow so the bard will have more time to sing? It's one thing for a bard to pull for a manaburn where everyone else in the party needs to be resting and has no good way to survive pulling, but a bard pulling for people with superior armor, HP, ranged attacks and Utsusemi that have nothing else to do between fights anyway? WTF?

Sorry for derailing.... BRDs are the preferred pullers for "burn" PTs. Can sing one set of songs, pull another mob while everyone is still fighting, and have it slept at camp ready to go as soon as the first is dead. Melees can help pull pops if the BRD has long pulls (like in Caedarva mire), but dedicating one melee to pull duty would severely hamper chaining ability.

With a BRD pulling, the melee have a constant supply of mobs with no wait in between (with the exception being the case of long pulls and/or overcrowded camp areas). With a melee pulling, they would have to wait for the mob to die, then go find a new one and bring it back, which causes more stand-around time, and is why some people never see more than Chain #5. If a melee leaves the fight early to pull another mob, you are sacrificing damage and kill speed. Given the right circumstances (melees killing fast enough, mobs repopping close enough, and the BRD not having to provide heavy support), neverending EXP chains are possible.

[Goldesper]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

While I have never done a Roaming in ToAU, I have done them in U-Range, Sky, and KRT.

What normally happens is the BRD Pulls with elegy and drops it off a few meters away from the party in a loop so the chain is continuous. After that they will do one song then pull. Ballad II > Minuet IV > Ballad I > March or Minuet III.

At least that is how I do it. I usually get to chain #20~ in U-Range, 15 in Sky, and 30ish in KRT.

I'm still working on my /NIN sub, I'll usually sub /RDM for Fast Cast so I can pull faster, but I'm really looking forward to subbing NIN.

[Icemage]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

It's nearly impossible (maybe actually is impossible) to see those high-chains without a bard. Too much timing can go wrong without a 0MP Sleep option.

My personal best is chain #127 in Bhaflau Thickets, and I've heard of much, much higher.


Icemage

[Hamlet]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

I think that the bard got a little too into the pulling aspect of his job and forgot his support duties. Who can blame him really? Finally he gets to do something different besides running back and forth in the party for hours on end (he gets to run back and forth to mobs and back to pt now haha).

Really, though, bards do make the best pullers. 0mp reliable sleep is great.

You've got to cut them some slack because it's got to be tough pulling all those mobs and avoiding links in those high chaining pts. You described it as a "half-hearted" attempt to refresh you. Maybe you shouldn't take the noble's tunic comment too personally and consider that maybe he was refreshing you as much as he considered possible while still maintaining the highest chain possible. His comment might have been him sort of thinking out loud, as he might've been wondering why you weren't regening mp, or as much mp/tick as he thought you should be (noble's and af look the same so he may have assumed you had it if you didn't have a vermillion's and had that in his mental calculations about how many times he's going to have to refresh you). Given the lack of other evidence of him saying the reason the pt was failing was you not having one piece of gear, I give him the benefit of doubt.

I don't know if he was really a bad bard. Just because you ran out of mp doesn't mean he's bad. Links happen, they suck, and they drain mp. I think he seemed especially bad because you just had a bard who kept everything running perfectly. For all you know, though, this 2nd bard may have just come from a pt where the whm had a noble's and totally pimped out everything.

My guess is he was just average, but watch out on getting to hard on his case because you may be too.