Expectations of merit point parties

[Nazo]

I just got level 75 a week or so ago and whm is my first job to get there so I have no idea what to expect from people or parties at end-game time. I took part in my first merit party the other night and it left me with a bad taste. It started off really well, we had a brd / whm, nin /war, 3 war / nin and me. We flew through the mobs in the thickets, the getting up to chain #66. Thanks to a kick-ass bard and a great nin who did a good job of pulling we were never in any trouble and I was able to keep my mp at 90%+ pretty much the whole time.

Then the bard had to leave and we swapped in a brd / nin at which point it started going wrong. Obviously I now have no backup healer which isn't a big deal but it's always nice to have. Problem was that this bard insisted on pullling, now I have no problem with that either, I've been in parties before where this has worked well, but he didn't use ballad on me. Moreover, he'd often come back with 3 mobs at once with his hp in the red, meaning Cure V's to save his ass as he got back to camp in addition to extra cures on the melees. My mp lasted about 6 fights before it was completely exhausted. The leader said something to him about using ballad, he came over, examined me
and I knew what was coming next: 'Oh, no Noble's tunic...' so now it's not his fault for doing a crappy job but mine for having less than uber gear. After that he made a half-hearted attempt to ballad me occasionally but eventually I gave up and left as without mp I'm not really able to contribute anything to the party.

Now I'm not going to blame myself for this situation as the brd wasn't doing the job the party required, he was doing what he found most fun, but my question is: is it a necessity to have uber gear for these things? I don't want people to think I'm leeching off them. I'm working towards getting better gear but these things take time. Should I lay off the xp parties until I can afford better stuff?

[Kirsteena]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

No you shouldn't lay off the xp parties. If a bard can't even keep up a rough cycle (pull, march, pull, ballad II, pull minuet or whatever songs they cast...) thats rough on anyone. I do these are rdm, and all I have access to is a vermy, but I do have convert, and my linkshell knows when I get a bard who can't even give me one ballad song, because even with refresh and a vermy I can't keep up. (There was one time I had 2 bards in party, and I still didn't get ballad). Nobles gives you 1mp a tick, Ballad II gives you 2mp a tick. You do the maths over a period of time

It sounds like you got a bad bard - there are plenty about who have levelled it purely as a fast job to 75, and have no real idea of the mechanics of parties like this.

[Balfree]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

That was a stupid bard, you dont find them only on merit parties..

[qaitakalnin]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

It sounds like you had a bad bard....or the bard was new with the pulling and didnt know to sing songs after the pull. I havent gotten that hight with my bard yet (whm is only 31 want to get that up before going back to bard) but in my rng static the blm wears a body piece that gives him a 1mp refresh, and the pld has that auto refresh thing goin for him but the rdm always always has them in the refresh cycle. Sounds like you had a poor bard.

[Neomage]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Yeah, that was a bad BRD. The Noble's Tunic HELPS, but is not required. Did you have the sanction refresh? It should have helped alot. Anyway, a BRD should sing at leats Ballad II on you, run away, pull, then buff melees. And 3 monsters a fight? Some partries may be able to do that, and it may reduce downtime for those that do, but those and long and far.

[samarium]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Also a Vermillion Cloak by itself isn't some wondrous cure-all to MP usage.

It's 1 MP per tick! It's helpful, sure, but its primary usage is to complement Balladx2 and Refresh.

Your BRD was just a moron. Everybody else in the world knows that parties (well, most parties) run on MP, and Ballad is definitely a priority if you're a bard. Especially in roaming camps with no rest time!

-sam

[DakAttack]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

There are good Bards and there are bad Bards. Good Bards can keep a Paladin Ballad'd, while bad ones just let him have whatever the other melee are having.

[samarium]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

There are good Bards and there are bad Bards. Good Bards can keep a Paladin Ballad'd, while bad ones just let him have whatever the other melee are having.

Though in all fairness, this also depends a lot on getting the rest of your party to cooperate with positioning and having aggro-free range to move around in.

bards

-sam

[Icemage]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

That BRD/NIN didn't know what he was doing.

Good BRD/NIN will keep up Ballad II on you (Ballad I is optional, they're usually too busy to use both unless they have a Shi'ar body piece and Rostrum Pumps to cut down casting time).

Good BRD/NIN also rarely get hit, and don't pull 3 enemies at a time (and on the occasions when they do, they should have zero issues with keeping those enemies asleep).

That being said, having sources of MP recovery in merit parties is extremely important. You won't have much, if any, time to rest, so MP conservation and regeneration is at a premium. To perform well as a WHM in roaming merit parties, you should seriously consider investing in either a Vermillion Cloak (if you're planning to take any other mage or support job above level 59), or a Noble's Tunic. They're very pricy, but show their value in such parties.

This is also one of the few cases where I support using WHM/BRD when there's a Bard main in the party. If you can sing Ballad for yourself (and potentially for any Paladins or Dark Knights or other MP users in your party), that's 6-8 seconds shaved off the pulling time for your bard. Additionally, if you find your MP is topped off without Ballad I, you can dash in and use Advancing March to improve kill speed and Utsusemi recasts, or Paeon III to tack on some free HP regeneration (3/tick).


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

I'm not a huge fan of the roaming pts on any mage job. Rdm's tend to do a bit better in that type of situation but whm's need some merit loving too. I've had the exact same thing happen to me on my whm. I understand the brd is busy pulling and buffing melee, but no ballad is an absolute no-no with a whm healer. I think it should be Ballad FIRST and melee buffs if he has time. If it were a rdm healer then buffs first and Ballad if he has time. NT, pfft...like that is going to be some miraculous improvement!

I always try and hook up with a pld friend of mine to go exp in a "normal" fashion. LOL You know weaponskills, magic bursts, a tank, etc. There certainly are plenty of places open to go exp like that now!

[Karinya]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

This is also one of the few cases where I support using WHM/BRD when there's a Bard main in the party. If you can sing Ballad for yourself (and potentially for any Paladins or Dark Knights or other MP users in your party), that's 6-8 seconds shaved off the pulling time for your bard. Additionally, if you find your MP is topped off without Ballad I, you can dash in and use Advancing March to improve kill speed and Utsusemi recasts, or Paeon III to tack on some free HP regeneration (3/tick).

With no other MP users, /SMN would provide the same refresh, all the time, without having to stop to sing, plus more max MP. /BRD is useful in its place, but if you aren't hitting at least two MP users (including yourself), a sub that just plain gives you auto-refresh is usually superior.

With no fast cast, I think it's unlikely he'll have time to run up, sing for the melees, run back and ballad himself.

Anyway, if you don't want to spend big bucks on vermy or noble's, WHM AF2 body also provides the same amount of refresh. It drops in Dynamis-Beaucedine though, so there may be some competition for it.

I wouldn't think less of someone for not having refresh gear. It's useful, but not crucial. It certainly isn't needed for merit points. And a bard who isn't even doing his job has no place criticizing others for their gear.


P.S.: If he wanted to criticize people for their gear, you should have asked where his Gjallarhorn was, and why his ballad was only giving 2 MP/tick instead of 4. Then when he complains that it's too hard to get and he doesn't have one, you can point out that the material for Noble's drops from Kirin. Rarely.

[Nazo]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Thanks all for your thoughts. Interestingly this was one of the few parties in the expansion areas which wasn't roaming, we had the place to ourselves and set up an effective camp. I just couldn't rest because everyone was taking so much damage. In the roaming parties I have had MP has been a bit tight but nothing unmanagable and I always get saction to refresh to help.
I hadn't considered the possibility of subbing bard, I guess smn would be an alternative too, don't have either of those levelled though.
I guess I'll keep going as I am and step up my gil making efforts until I can afford a NT.

[Credos]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

I think it should be Ballad FIRST and melee buffs if he has time.

This is not the way a good BRD will sing songs, because if he were to sing ballad then melee buffs he's going to be pulling with min/mad/march/whatever on when he could have double ballad and take advantage of his own refresh.

[samarium]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

Thanks all for your thoughts. Interestingly this was one of the few parties in the expansion areas which wasn't roaming, we had the place to ourselves and set up an effective camp. I just couldn't rest because everyone was taking so much damage. In the roaming parties I have had MP has been a bit tight but nothing unmanagable and I always get saction to refresh to help.
I hadn't considered the possibility of subbing bard, I guess smn would be an alternative too, don't have either of those levelled though.
I guess I'll keep going as I am and step up my gil making efforts until I can afford a NT.

Good luck with that, although your bard still ought to be Ballading you properly. Like RDM with Refresh, Ballad's one of the bigger perks of having a BRD in the first place.

-sam

[Raydeus]

Re: Expectations of merit point parties

You just had a bad BRD that was too worried about getting to chain 100 without realizing that to do that you need to have MP first. It happens, but don't take that as a bad sign about Merit parties. Fortunately most of them run smoothly and you get xp fast because many players are veterans at their jobs and know how to play at least at a decent level.


(That has happened to me before as a RDM main healer, the advantage of having RDM+BRD is that with Refresh, Ballad and sanction you are getting 7 mp per tick. But if the BRD only throws you a Ballad (and I really mean just one Ballad) every 10 fights then all the advantages from RDM+BRD setup are negated. )