V-Cloak, Worth It?

[Tira]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

Except you can and should switch in the af body when casting enfeebles along with other +mnd gear, then switch back. So that's really not a lose to using a vermillion.

You are really underestimating that if you consider it not very much. That's 600 mp every 30 mins. Its the equivalent of +3.3mph after you start getting ticks every 10 seconds (even larger while the ticks take 20 secs). Even better is it works all the time. Any seasoned whm will tell you +mpH is your top priority, especially over max mp. Max mp is pretty insignifigant end game and the mp difference isn't very large.

As for the loss of -enimity, just macro in your af (or errant later) when you cast flash or cure 4. Once you get cure 5 and regen 3, you won't have hate problems anyway until you reach the end game hnm scene.

59 is not endgame so the endgame importance of refresh isn't really applicable to this discussion, which is focusing on buying a V. Cloak at 59 which would be for exp parties, CoP and maybe Zilart Missions.


Of cause if you are going to be doing Dynamis runs and HNM's then you want to start investing in this kind of gear but thats blatantly obvious.


Also, yes you can use a V. Cloak and macro in your AF as you need it, but being able to do that and it benefit you doesn't exactly mean the item is essential and you should go into overdrive to get it.


Myself in exp parties with AF and good other equipment at 58, I don't need refresh even from a RDM or BRD. Frequently (with NIN and PLD tanks) the RDM will stop refreshing me as it's a waste of time. Unless I am in a party with a really poor tank my MP won't go below 300-400 anyway.

So is a V. Cloak a must have? - no not at all. For me it would only benefit me while soloing. If the tank was bad and was draining my MP I don't think a v. cloak would save the party on the basis that a RDM refreshing and putting their all into healing along side me doesn't save a party where hate is on everyone but the tank.

[Icemage]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

I've never, ever considered Refresh a waste of time for a WHM. WHM rank #3 on my Refresh priority list, after myself and a PLD (if present).

If you consider Refresh wasted on you as a WHM, you aren't being creative enough with your MP usage, and you're hurting your party's performance in the process.


Icemage

[Rones]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

59 is not endgame so the endgame importance of refresh isn't really applicable to this discussion, which is focusing on buying a V. Cloak at 59 which would be for exp parties, CoP and maybe Zilart Missions.

Ok, end game wasn't the right word. High lvl is what I was after, such as 60+. At that point you have a large enough mp tank to work with already (unless you are galka).

Understand, I said that exact same thing when I was in your position lvling whm through those lvls without any cash. I agree, it isn't needed. You can get to 75 without it easy, I did it. However, that doesn't mean it is not useful. It will and does greatly improve your effectiveness. I absolutly love having refresh from af2 body. Its expensive, its effectivne, its not critical. You just have to make your own choice about your priorities, but don't try lie about its effect just to make yourself feel better. Its your choice and you need to accept what you decide with the good and the bad.

[pyromaniac]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

I say no if u want Auto-Refresh use WHM best sub which is SMN more mp and auto refresh


wat is blm used 4 besides warp SMN is more useful

[TheGrandMom]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

I find smn the least useful personally. I use Elemental Seal often and the Conserve MP trait is also very nice. Escape is another useful spell that I use as well as Tractor on occasion. Most whm's that use smn sub don't even utilize it to it's full potential. Most of them never even bring out an avatar for ss or blink. So why just use it for refresh and an mp boost? If you're going to sub it, use it!

[Brodrik]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

Noble's Tunic is of course superior to Vermilion Cloak, though is higher level and Whm-only. I notice you're Brd75, though, and if in what you're doing you regularly dump all your mp into curing and such, V-Cloak can be useful for that. It's also useful if you're going to be levelling Summoner.

If you're not interested in it for Bard or Summoner equipment, then personally I'd skip it, level to 68, and get Noble's.

[Icemage]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

I say no if u want Auto-Refresh use WHM best sub which is SMN more mp and auto refresh


wat is blm used 4 besides warp SMN is more useful

Eh.. I really don't understand why everyone thinks /SMN is so amazing for XP parties. Of all the viable XP party subjobs for WHM, I think it's the weakest.

/BRD gives Sword Madrigal(22/11), Mage's Ballad(50/25), Advancing March(58/29), and Magic Finale (66/33), plus some Resist Silence.

/BLM gives some MP, Elemental Seal (30/15), Warp (34/17), Conserve MP (40/20), Sleep (40/20), Escape (58/29), and Sleepga (62/31), plus a bit of Magic Attack Bonus if you're magic bursting against undead.

/RDM gives a bit of MP, Fast Cast (30/15, and more at 70/35), Gravity (42/21), Sleep (50/25), Dispel (64/32), plus a bit of Magic Attack and Resist Petrify.

/SMN gives extra MP, Auto-Refresh (50/25), and Aerial Armor(50/25).

Considering how pointless max MP is for WHM, and how expensive and situational Aerial Armor is, I consider /SMN to be easily the least useful of WHM subs.

Also note that /BLU may be situationally useful:

/BLU gives a bit of MP, Pollen (1/1), Coccoon(16/8), Healing Breeze(32/16), Metallic Body (16/8), Headbutt (24/12) and can offer Beast Killer, Undead Killer, Lizard Killer, and/or Magic Attack Bonus traits if the correct spells are set.


Icemage

[UnnamedGalka]

Re:

Magic Finale (66/33)

Finale doesn't work too well at all from a sub. Since its effectiveness is based off of singing/instrument skill, and not enfeebling, you'll find it being resisted more often than not.

[Icemage]

Re:

Finale doesn't work too well at all from a sub. Since its effectiveness is based off of singing/instrument skill, and not enfeebling, you'll find it being resisted more often than not.

Not true. It works 100% against spell-based buffs on monsters that are weak to light (Aura Weapons, Spartoi Sorcerors). I never had it fail even once between level 66 and 75 as WHM/BRD in moon, sky, or King Ranperre's Tomb.

It DOES fail a lot against other creatures, but against those two types of enemies, it always works.


Icemage

[UnnamedGalka]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

against those two types of enemies, it always works.

Sure, it works consistently against only two types of enemies. If you want to EXP somewhere like Bibiki Bay or Bhaflau Thickets, /BRD is completely worthless.

Really, if I need to have dispel when I play WHM, I sub RDM. I just don't see the point of /BRD.

[Icemage]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

Well, considering I went from level 61 to 75 on WHM primarily on the strengths of using a Bard subjob, I'd say it works pretty well. Extra MP for mages (and PLD if present), more accuracy for melees (or a bit of Haste from March, if your tank is a Ninja)... and for 0 MP.

A free Dispel that works on Aura Weapons and Spartoi Sorcerors shouldn't be sneezed at - while the new ToAU areas are definitely a great place to go at 65+ these days, it wasn't always so, and people still XP on bones fairly often, even if sky and moon seem much emptier than previously.

The point of /BRD is that songs cost 0 MP. WHMs don't really need other abilities from a subjob to do their jobs properly, but they're nice when they're there.

Granted, a Galka and perhaps an Elvaan WHM might have trouble subbing Bard due to the hit in max MP, but for a Taru, Hume, or Mithra it works fine if you know what you're doing. XP chaining is all about MP flow, and /BRD accomplishes this far better than /SMN does, since it gives the bonus MP to all members of your party (and actually gives you more available MP to spend over time than /BLM nets you with Conserve MP).

Of course there are times when you just want a reliable Dispel, and I'd be the last to discount /RDM for that purpose - but if you're in a KRT bones party, why choose the low-accuracy Dark-based Dispel for 30MP when you can choose the perfect accuracy Magic Finale for 0 MP to remove those annoying Ice Spikes?


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

finale doesn't rely on singing skill? That's good to know.
As far as MP is concerned, I used Rdm/brd a lot, the little MP from ballad has always been a great great help. Of course if I'm in a PT of Rdm nin nin nin nin or something like this, it's not that useful. But a PT with PLD DRK WHM BLM, or BLM PT with only me Rdm and 5 other BLM, you get the picture.

[Icemage]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

finale doesn't rely on singing skill? That's good to know.

It does rely on Singing skill. However, in the case of Dancing Weapons and Skeletons, their resistance to Light magic is so weak that all you need is a Light Staff to get a perfect success rate at removing their defensive spells (and in my experience, spell-based buffs are much easier to remove than those granted by WS under any circumstances).


Icemage

[UnnamedGalka]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

If you find WHM/BRD to be useful, that's cool. Everyone has their own play style, and I respect that.

Though, from a personal standpoint, I have been WHM/BRD for quite a few parties in the past due to request, and every time I was left wishing that I had something else subbed.

Yes, songs cost 0 MP, but in turn, they have long casting times and you'll only be able to stick one at a time. Also, with no instruments, relying only on a halved singing skill, your songs won't have near the power or duration that they would have if cast by a BRD main.

WHM/BRD just feels lacking; from my experience, I honestly don't see what's so great about it.

Anyway, I think we're starting to get off-topic a bit...

[Icemage]

Re: V-Cloak, Worth It?

WHM/BRD only feels lacking if you try and compare the songs to a main bard. You're not a main bard - you're just a WHM who can sing a couple of useful songs.

Songs do take some time to sing, so WHM/BRD takes a lot of time management skills to play correctly. You really have to learn how to get a feel for the timing of what other players are doing (where they're standing, especially with Thieves, Rangers, Corsairs and Paladins). WHM duties aren't so busy that you can't find ~20 seconds per fight to sing a couple songs if you get into a good routine and react accordingly.

For reference, /BRD songs still last 120 seconds. You just lose the 10 second boost per +1 on your instrument. Most of the buff songs you sing are about half strength, too, but again, 0 MP - you get about +14 ATK from Minuet, or around 5% Haste from March. Not 100% sure what the accuracy boost from Sword Madrigal is, but it's noticeable - seems to be somewhere around +7. And of course, Ballad doesn't get any stronger than a main bard's unless you happen to own a Gjallarhorn.

---

Swinging back on-topic, Vermillion Cloak at level 59 is trumped only by Noble's/Aristocrat's Tunic at 68, and Cleric's Briault at 74. That's 9 levels where it is undisputedly your best available body armor, and still a serviceable replacement for the remaining 7. Plus, you can always sell it back for as much/more than you paid for it if you get one of the other two. I paid 3 million for my Vermillion Cloak 2 years ago, and inflation has pushed it close to 20 million now. Not a bad return on investment (not that I'd ever sell it, it's way too useful for BCNM60 and other level capped events).


IcemageIcemage