WHM/BRD at 60+

[Icemage]

Ok, ok, so I know the conventional wisdom is that WHM/BLM is the best (and, in general, it is in my experience).

However, I spent some time levelling Bard to 28 a while ago, and actually got a chance to gain some XP on my WHM this weekend, so when I heard what the party configuration was going to be, I asked the PT leader if it would be ok if I experimented with my slightly gimpy /BRD28 sub instead of my normal /BLM30.

Party configuration was:

PLD/WAR 62
MNK/THF 62
RDM/BLM 61
DRK/THF 61
BLM/WHM 60
WHM/BRD 60

Ordinarily for pick-up groups I use /BLM, but with 5 MP-users in the party and only a single red mage for backup, I thought it might be an interesting experience to try using /BRD instead to get some extra MP recovery with Mage's Ballad. Party leader thought it would be fun to try it, so I switched to WHM60/BRD28 and we teleported out.

We trek out into Gustav Tunnel to beat up on Doom Mages and Doom Soldiers and the odd Robber Crab... and...we're chaining these things (all of which are IT) for 100-200XP... with almost no down time.

I had to change my play style a bit to make use of Mage's Ballad, but the results were much better than I expected.

At level 60, things were kind of scary, as the DRK would Soul Eater + Sneak Attack + Guillotine for a ton of damage (and burn away several hundred HPs on the WS alone ), pull aggro, before the MNK/THF would Raging Fists + Trick + Sneak to get it back onto the PLD. This left the DRK seriously damaged (400+, sometimes more than 600 damage!)

For the first hour or so (until I levelled up to 61), I was using Cure IV to heal the DRK, sometimes backed with Divine Seal, which was racking up all sorts of aggro on me. Once I hit 61, I learned Cure V (had the scroll on me - yay!)... and things just "clicked."

Not only did Cure V have WAY lower hate factor than Cure IV (it seems to be slightly higher than Cure III's enmity, but not by much), it is also more MP efficient than any of the other Cure spells :spin: and helped me avoid using Divine Seal except for when the skeletons would use Black Cloud.

More importantly, it left me more casting time to slide in Mage's Ballad. This let us do all sorts of nice things, since the DRK (usually the lowest priority for RDM to refresh) now had spare MP to Absorb-AGI, the BLM could toss extra elemental enfeebles like Frost, and left us with way more MP as security on bad links for things like Sleep II.

All in all, we managed a really fantastic 3.5K per hour average over 3 hours... not bad at all.

While I still wouldn't recommend it as a general use subjob, in this specific instance /BRD worked really, really well.


Icemage

[Rones]

This is way too freaky. I was seriously getting ready to make a thread just like this one. I just hit 50 and needed to go lvl my blm sub more, but realized I could sub 25 brd and get mage ballad. Considering I've seen all of 2 brds from 1 to 50 and could always go back to the blm sub on the rare occasion we found one, I thought this might be a good combo. So on closer inspection it stacks up like this:

Losing blm sub costs you:
Warp (just fun, just not needed for exp)
Escape at higher lvls (not needed if you have a blm already, which are pretty numerous on my server)
Sleep for adds. Mine doesn't work too often, and if you have a rdm or blm already in the party yours isn't really necessary.
Some mp, but if your tank is big enough already, you shouldn't need all of it.

Taking brd sub gives you:
Mages ballad. And for a party with 4-5 mp users without a brd and only one rdm, this is probably a huge help.
Silence resist boosts at lvl 5 and 25 brd
Foe lullaby, not sure how well it would work, but might be just as effective as blm sleep subbed.

For parties without a brd and 4-5 mp users with 0 or 1 rdms, this looks too be a huge help. I really think I want to lvl up brd now to sub to my whm.

[sulci]

Actually, whenver we are stuck in a PT with no RDM or BRD, our BLM always subs BRD.

At beginning of fights it lets him run up to give Accuracy Bonus to the Melee, then he runs back and gives us Mage's Ballad, and keeps it on. I dunno how much of a diff it makes, but our NIN reassures me that the accuracy bonus is worthwhile.

In the end, everyone still gets warp, I can always escape if we need it, and I get to keep my blm sub

I would def. prefer him to have it instead of me, so I can keep sitting for as long as possible to soak up as much MP as possible (and i'm lazy and dont like to run around like him ;o; ).

It'll be 10000% times better when we hit 62 and he gets Finale.

[Ungerpurr]

Bard seems to me to be a very useful sub at 50+, if nothing else, it's a constant low-end juice effect for free. Even better in that group would've been two /brds (rdm taking the other one), which would've given you nearly all the utility of having a bard in the group, at a minimal loss of utility (since the blm can cover the /blm of the rdm and whm, while still retaining his own /whm). Granted, the red mage's madrigal wouldn't have been all that great, but every little bit counts, it's probably still as good as 10-15 +accuracy in gear.

Mages have a lot more versatility in their subjob (well, except for summoner) than melees do from 50-60 (where /war reigns supreme). At 60, melees gain a bit more utility from their subs, but mages can still have a lot of fun.

[Miriamel]

Yeah, I've been toying around with the brd job as well and got it to 29 - i was thinking about subbing it out of curiousity. I might actually go for it after reading this.

[Yuukichan]

In fact, when PT= drk, knight, blm, whm, rdm and another dmg dealer, we usually go for rdm sub brd.
whm subbing bard is not ineffective in term of performance, but the whm get awfully busy... (and lose the almighty conserve mp ability).
rdm /brd is pretty good, because of fast casting ability of rdm. they sing a lot faster and the genkai refresh cycle is 4 character. so rdm / brd is the best in my opinion.
Ps: first post and sorry if my english is bad.

[Rones]

and lose the almighty conserve mp ability).

Forgot about that one, hmmm. Much to think on. Icemage, have you got to try the combo any more? Really curious if this is a reasonable thing.

[Bamce Sylph]

at lvl 50 the only time subbing bard becomes viable (imo) is when you have a mp intensive party, in icey's example there was one person w/o a mp bar, so the extra mp doens't get wasted. however when your group is whm, red, pal, theif, monk goon etc etc, you'll get the same effect as ballad by subbing summoner and u won't be running around, not healing since its 8 seconds to cast, and that is a LONG time monster could fire an early weaponskill and maul your tank. bard sub should be an option not something u raise for everyday exping,

[Icemage]

I'd say that /BRD25+ is only really useful if:

(1) There is no Bard in the party
(2) There is a Red Mage in the party
(3) There are at least 4 MP users in the party
(4) Someone else in the party can cast Escape

If you have all of the above, /BRD can work. I'm not sure that Red Mages are necessarily better at it than White or Black mages though - even though RDM are faster at singing, they also have more spells to worry about (Slow, Paralyze, Silence, Gravity, Refresh, Dispel, Magic Bursts) compared to white mage (Cure III/IV/V, Regen I/II/III, Flash, Dia I/II) or BLM (Elemental enfeebles, Bio I/II, Stun, Magic Bursts).

In any case, singing Ballad once in a while doesn't seem to majorly impact my MP use - MP conserve kicks in rarely enough to where I normally can't count on it, so actually getting the extra consistent MP from Ballad is actually rather comforting, and gives me a much clearer idea of just how much magic power I have remaining in a fight. i.e. I never go "oh I hope I get an MP conserve on my next spell so I can cast one last Cure III" - if things have gotten that far out of hand, chances are I've hopefully long since Escaped the party or done something equally more reliable.


Icemage

[evilution]

ice got the criteria for a WHM/BRD to be viable more or less on the nose

[kaply]

I'm not sure how easy it would be for you to land, but Dark Threnody may be worth the 2 seconds to use at the beginning of combat. RDM can get more from Aspir as well as DRK. It also should help the RDM land Gravity which supposedly makes the mobs easier to hit. Dark threnody is something you can learn in the 10's so you should have it. I'm not too sure how the mobs are at your level but sometimes having madrigals help out the melee as well. Granted that is another 8 seconds of casting time for you.

[Yuanlung]

The white mage in my set party has been experimenting with WHM/BRD as well.

Since she's not high enough to sing ballad from her /brd sub yet, she pretty much just use madrial at the beginning of each battle. Although she has less MP when /BRD is subbed, the battles go shorter as well since the melees are hit better and get TP faster, which means more chains and MB's.

It usually takes several tries and a conciderable amount of time for her to stick a threnody on IT mobs, so we just don't bother with those anymore.

[achornx]

thats an interesting combination.. im using blm for warp/conservemp/etc.. im assuming most parties high up have a bard.. maybe im wrong in assuming that.. but it seems as though you want to be stationary as a whm, and not running around singing..

it would reduce downtime, thats for sure.. now if there was a way to change jobs w/o visiting a mog house.. lol

[Rones]

im assuming most parties high up have a bard.. maybe im wrong in assuming that..

I haven't had a party with a brd since lvl 34 in garliege citadel. Brds are extremelly rare to get to party with at the upper lvls. They just lvl so fast. :sweat:

[InterSlayer]

-

When you sub bard for magic finale, does it always dispell mobs...even IT ones you xp on around level 60+?

I'm seriously considering this since darkstaff really helps with mp regen =)