Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TBoTB]

I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

[Russta]

A White Mage's sub depends on the party in hand, nothing else.

- BLM sub is totally pointless if you are in a party with a BLM or someone who already has it subbed. Only other point worth noting is the difference in MB damage if you like to do that, there was 80 difference in my Cure V MB's against Gustav Skeletons.

- RDM is good for Dispel if there is not one in your party and you are fighting things that need Dispel more than 24 seconds apart. It is also by far the best sub for solo stuff past 66 when you can use Phalanx not to mention having Dispel and the En~ series is nice.

- SMN offers the most MP, 1 MP/3 Sec auto refresh and the most usefull peripheral ability in Garuda's "Blinkga" but of course you need the necessary avatars aquired for it to work. In my opinion this is the best overall sub for parties if you have more than just Carbuncle.

- BRD is only worth it for Ballad if you have no Bard and it "fits the style" of the party, though out of the four it is the least useful without question. No songs like Requiem or Lullaby will stick and Finale will only work against weaker enemy buffs such as Icespike.

- DRK past 74. Yes I'm serious. If the only other sub you can offer is BLM and there is no actual BLM or DRK in the party than Stun can prove extremely useful. However, the chance of this ever happening is very slim for reasons that should be obvious to you.

~~~

Bleh, it's 9:30am and I haven't been to bed yet so I kind of missed the point of your post. However this all still remains valid so I will leave it here regardless, do what you will with it.

Your spelling, punctuation and grammar makes me sad TBoTB

[locus]

I'm going to make my view on subjobs for whm clear:

- BLM sub is totally pointless if you are in a party with a BLM or someone who already has it subbed. Only other point worth noting is the difference in MB damage if you like to do that, there was 80 difference in my Cure V MB's against Gustav Skeletons.

Pointless is not necessarily correct. Conserve MP is always useful, Elemental seal has it's perks and Tractor and Escape are always nice to have as a backup plan in case the black mage overnukes and ends up dead. And Bio 2 can't be resisted, so you can help out with the debuffs. I recommend this sub the most when exping as Conserve mp is always useful.

- RDM is good for Dispel if there is not one in your party and you are fighting things that need Dispel more than 24 seconds apart. It is also by far the best sub for solo stuff past 66 when you can use Phalanx not to mention having Dispel and the En~ series is nice.

Fast cast = rapid healing/statusna power. Dispel skill is based on Dark skill, if I'm not wrong, so it's about as effective as subbing bard for finale (which isn't that good an idea on IT monsters. Try it and see.) Phalanx isn't too bad, but it is a selfish spell and when soloing/farming, BLM is usually a better idea for warp/aspir.

-SMN: Overrated in my opinion. Auto refresh works at the rate of 1 mp/3 sec while Conserve mp can go off and save you something like 44 mp on a Cure 4 (that's 132 seconds of auto refresh in an instant!). Sure, you can blink everyone, but this is often not practical in a party with a bard and you won't be available to cure people for all of the 8 seconds casting Aerial Armor (which wipes out a sizable chunk of mp). I find that at later levels it's better to let the bard sub summoner for aerial shield if you need blinkga since he'll be close to the front line anyway. Your other summon spells will be near-useless/too expensive. On the plus side, I don't think Lunar Roar can be resisted (but it is so much slower than dispel...). Other bonuses are whispering wind (costs too much mp for too little hp, but creates little hate on you) and this sub lets your party pull monsters that link.

-Brd is more useful than people think. With some IT enemies after level 60, even a small bonus like sword madrigal to the front row can make a heck of a difference. Sometimes you'll have a party with up to 5 people with mp and with no bard. Ballad can amount to 5mp/3sec in that case and help the paladin with his mp. However, due to the casting time of songs, it's also generally a better idea to let the red mage do this. Of course, this sub is pretty much pointless with main job bard in the party.

-Drk = For exp purposes, I don't think so. No conserve mp, no elemental seal, warp, escape, elemental debuffs. Stun creates as much hate as Flash (read: a lot) and Last Resort/Souleater may not be practical. This generally works better for Red mages. Try it and let me know how it goes.

For farming purposes, you can try the following (recommended for solo only!):

-Bst = People say time and time again: Don't sub bst! This only applies when you are exping. Monsters stay charmed for over 30 minutes of real time when they are "too weak to be worthwhile" even if your beastmaster is level 1 (I've seen proof of this). It may take many, many tries to charm that kraken, but once you get it, you can kill countless snippers and giants with no downtime. Charm is also a fast way to pull NMs that refreshes faster than provoke. Wide Scan helps so much when farming...

-Ninja = vs pots, Dual Wield can make Hexa and Judgment do crazy damage. Tonko does not aggro magic-aggroing enemies like bombs (and is cheaper than prism powder). Also useful when skilling up club as you get slightly more attacks.

-Thief = Nuff said. Every class subs this when farming.

-Ranger = MUCH larger wide scan than BST. Useful for elemental farming (anything with 100% drops that pops over a limited time and a small range)

-Samurai = Repeated hexa. Makes farming so much faster. (remember that you won't get tp for multihit strikes after the monster is dead though).

[Russta]

The fact that your opinion is totally different to mine yet 100% correct shows that a guide for any job is ultimatly flawed. Thanks for replying in the manner I wanted

[Yuanlung]

The fact that your opinion is totally different to mine yet 100% correct shows that a guide for any job is ultimatly flawed.

I don't think I follow your logic, or lack of, here. To me, when someone is 100% and disagree with you, you are not 100% correct... :sweat:

I was supprised that a high level WHM/BLM would be putting down black mage sub like you did. The subjob does have its merits, as Icemage pointed out. To say it's "totally pointless", is somewhat over a false statement, since the BLM job traits and bonus clearly helps anyone who uses MP costing spells.

Also, the purpose of a guide is not to establish a "be all and end all" rule set for playing the game, but a collection of information that may help those who are new to the game to have an idea of how things work, without having to rely on blind assumptions.

Even though there are controversies around various job/subjob/race combos, you can just present as such in the guide, instead of present any of the views as the absolute truth. A guide is just a way of providing consolidated information, not a tool for winning some argument.

I am all for putting togather a good guide. I know I had to go through a lot of gdigging and testing myself at the beginning to get a bearing of things. It would've helped immensely if there was a more complete guide covering both basic and advanced information.

Hopefully, it will save the numerous newcomers (PS2 realease coming soon) a lot of grief.

[Echo]

Originally posted by locus
I'm going to make my view on subjobs for whm clear:



Pointless is not necessarily correct. Conserve MP is always useful, Elemental seal has it's perks and Tractor and Escape are always nice to have as a backup plan in case the black mage overnukes and ends up dead. And Bio 2 can't be resisted, so you can help out with the debuffs. I recommend this sub the most when exping as Conserve mp is always useful.

Agreed: BLM makes a great sub for WHM and RDM for Conserve, Tractor, Escape and Warp.

Fast cast = rapid healing/statusna power. Dispel skill is based on Dark skill, if I'm not wrong, so it's about as effective as subbing bard for finale (which isn't that good an idea on IT monsters. Try it and see.) Phalanx isn't too bad, but it is a selfish spell and when soloing/farming, BLM is usually a better idea for warp/aspir.

Dispel is Enfeebling, not Dark. (Only native Dark spells for RDM are Bio1/2, but I guess that's better than Divine, which has the same skillcap as dark on RDM, but .. no spells at all. )

Really, I think the Ideal sub for WHM is BLM, just as the ideal sub for BLM is WHM. (It's a bit trickier for RDM, since both BLM and WHM contribute useful things, it depends on party makeup, especially if you have no handy WHM.)

[Russta]

My main point is I have experienced so many times during my leveling where Black Mage sub has felt pointless and I wished I had Red Mage or Summoner leveled up. No one experiences the same things during this game so there are so many opinions that none can be right. I made that post with many, many holes in to see what reactions and comments I could evoke from it and, from my logic, it worked. Of course, saying Black Mage is totally pointless was an over statement - even I'm not that stupid. A recent party in Gustav, where I was MB'ing Cure V:

Average damage with Bard subbed



Average damage with Black Mage subbed



In an ideal world it's best to have all feasible subjobs leveled but that isn't likely. Black Mage is by far the safest sub but I do not believe it is the "best" anymore because of my experiences of late.

If you need any help with your guide I'd be happy to help.

[locus]

You sure it's enfeebling? I've heard from quite a few red mages that it's Dark skill. If it's enfeebling, it would make more sense to sub red mage. However, FFXI has some weird discrepancies:

Teleporting spells are "Enhancing magic"
Flash is "Divine magic".
Dia is "Enfeebling" but Bio is "Dark" (not that it can be resisted, but it does affect stick time).
Reraise is Healing magic, not Enhancing magic.

But if you're a red mage, you should know better than I do since I haven't bothered levelling red mage at all. ^^ Thank you for the correction.

Edit: Sometimes, at higher levels, you may notice that red mages make for better healers because they can get a higher hp restored/second ration than you can (Fast cast rules). The reason why red mage isn't as effective as a sub, compared to black or summoner AT TIMES is because it has no inherent MP stamina (at least until you can sub it for convert or refresh). You will be a very good healer for a short period of time, and then experience horrific downtime. Nevertheless, red mage as a sub DOES have undeniable benefits.

I'd like to caution people from making sweeping statements. The hands-down "Best" support job does not exist. It is fluid and changes from party to party.

It can vary from party composition (example):
WHM/BLM/RDM/PLD/DRK/DRK ('best' sub = BRD, if the RDM can't)
WHM/MNK/MNK/MNK/RDM/BRD (don't laugh, this works. 'best' sub = BLM)

Or it can vary according to enemies hunted/place:

Den of Rancor: Maledictors, Puck, all link, EXP chain limited by how fast you can pull. Best subjob = summoner if the group does not have one.

Kuftal: Crab crab crab crab crab crab X infinity. Active but do not link. Best support job = black mage (in case Guivre pops and something messy happens. You WILL need tractor).

Helping a low level party get mission 5 done, you are level 70+, they are level 35ish. Best support job = Warrior. (you make a better tank than any of them do.)

As it's silly to write a guide encompassing all these situations, I recommend developing a sound sense of judgment. Versatility is always nice. The fact is that the MORE versatile you are (and more subjobs you have) the MORE appealling you are to someone looking for a white mage.

[Tomatoes]

Hi all,

I haven't gotten any advanced jobs yet, but I was thinking about subbing my WHM with BRD once I get it, but I heard a lot of people say it's not that great w/ only one song. I was thinking, since I play mostly pickup parties, it wouldn't be so bad, cause there's usually not a main bard. Considering the circumstance do you think BRD sub is okay? Or should I just stick with /BLM or /RDM sub?

[Funguwari]

From what I've experienced about the BRD job sucking as a sub, seemed to be total BS. When a WHM I PTed with said, "BLM sub, SMN sub or BRD sub? All Lv'ed to cap..." Everyone said BRD, I said SMN. Well I thought the girl was a total moron, but, it was actually a great, great combo. You are a total support character there. Yes, you can only make 1 song... but, a Madrigal on a melee reduced downtime... ALOT, even with the one song. The SMN sub, which she did later (because I said for her to do it to decrease downtime [wasn't convinced yet BRD sub was good].... it ended up not being as good as I thought. Yeah she had MP for healing... but, the melees weren't able to hit the mandragoras as much as they were, result: more downtime, slower kills.

What can I say? Keep a SMN and BRD Lv'ed to 37 (if taking WHM to 75) and if there is a BRD in a PT already, use SMN, if not, use BRD, I'm telling you... people need to try things before they quote something out of the official BradyGames strat guide and decide what's right and wrong.

[PedaTeda]

official BradyGames strat guide and decide what's right and wrong.

i h8 that think they tell u the basics..... lol its mainly for newbies and ppl without this game waiting for it........... for one it doesnt tell What items the NM drop........or the price range for the normal shops............the success rate for synthing... what lvl u should start synthing an item...............

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

need i say more?

P.S. the only good that can give u if ur an experienced player i saving gil on maps........pfft not much anyhow... maybe 20k tops i believe

[eviee]

i am thinking of leaving my blm subbed just for the reason that i like being able to warp out if the going gets tough. smn would be nice for more mp... but i already have 413 mp at level 31 ( a whm elvann i know with smn subbed at 32 only has 320...)

i said maybe if i get all the avatars for my smn ill use it subbed, just so i can call stuff?

:sweat:

[Icemage]

For pickup play, you can't pay me enough to switch my /BRD sub for a /BLM sub. The difference in downtime is very noticeable - Madrigal and Prelude (with a RNG present) make fights much shorter, and Ballad makes resting much less painful.

The only drawback is time management. I have to watch my casting times very carefully during a fight because there are so many things I need to cast during a 60-120 second fight.


Icemage

[PedaTeda]

ea but at ur lvl u shouldnt really need to do much since ull most likely have brd nin blm and drk/rng which will knock a mob down uber fast

[Rigsta]

SMN Pros:

Highest MP bonus.
Auto-refresh for 20MP restored/minute... or was it 30MP, I don't remember if the tick time is 3 seconds or 2 seconds.
Garuda's group blink.... for over 100MP.
Linkless Carby pull.

SMN Cons:

No other useful spells or abilities (clear mind will not stack with the ones WHM gets anyway).

SMN Summary: Great for higher MP and if all you need to do is cure/regen, but not much beyond that.

BLM Pros:

2nd-highest MP bonus
Conserve MP. Saves more MP than auto-refresh IMO, but only when you're busy.
2 magic attack bonus traits (keep your divine skill levelled, it CAN be useful).
Elemental Seal. Useful when it's up for making a debuff, aspir, bind, MB, cure nuke, or SLEEP sticking almost without fail.
Sleep spell. Very useful, I use it all the time.
Bind. Not as useful against IT, but be creative.
Spikes spells (for solo).
Blind spell.
Warp spell.
Escape spell.
Tractor spell.

BLM Cons:

No MND bonus.
Most spells from it are useless due to half-levelled skill.

BLM Summary: Probably the most versatile sub. Warp is essential for alliance teleportation, Conserve MP is more useful than most people think, Elemental Seal is a life-saver when used with a silence or sleep. This sub makes you quite balanced and self-sufficient. And you'll be happy when conserve MP kicks in on a raise II or some other high-cost spell.

RDM Pros:

Fast Cast. Can be a lifesaver.
Sleep spell.
Dispel spell.
Phalanx spell.
Gravity spell.
En-spells for (solo).
Magic attack bonues.

RDM Cons:

Lowest MP bonus.
No active abilities.
Spells are gained later.
No form of natural MP conservation.

RDM Summary: I'd use this for fast cast, phalanx and dispel personally.

BRD...... I dunno, I have no experience with this sub.