White Warriors

[Russta]

Originally posted by StarvingArtist
However, a 200-300dmg Blizzard-ga or Banish-ga II MB has gotton some "uha's" from my PT members

How to get "uha's" from every Bone party you are graced with:

[Apple Pie]

I've seen Japanese people with a level 75 white mage, bard and beastmaster WITHOUT a subjob.

How many of them have you actually seen? Are they really the majority on your server? I as the Japanese don't think so.

They don't do this because they CAN'T get a subjob, they do it to make the game a challenge.

Do you think the fact that they DON'T get a subjob make other 5 people happy? Are you also the one thinking it's OK if only you have fun and others not? I don't complain if whatever they do doesn't hurt the entire PT at all. I'm even glad if their melee really contributes to XP we get.

Again, I'm not against the fact that mages can melee but I'm wondering whether or not we standardize / recommend this as what ideal mages do. This is what I point out most here.

Kicking people out of your party is often the silliest way of resolving matters because it gives you a terrible reputation.

If he or she never tries to listen to what other 5 people are asking, what I can only do is kick him/her so that I can save others' time. I, 99.45% of entire my career, try to act politely because I don't want to disturb the harmony among PT members. However, leaving naughty person untouched iventually destroy the whole PT.

The next time your entire party dies and needs a Raise 2, it may be him you have to call for help.

That never happens. I'm not as self-conceited as you think. If there's no one around when we all die, I'm the one to come back to life without raise II and res them all. I'm always prepared to sacrifice myself.

You need to be able to counter it FAST. And yet you'd want to rest? You can't cast spells when you rest,

Did I really say that? Please don't try to mix two different things into one. If it was because of my poor English, I appogize.

[Rekiem]

The only time WHM shouldn't be fighting is when you have a Bard or when your fighting monsters with anoying area attack like those peice of shit Peryton or tier 3 mage type beastman who can cast -ga III spell (can kill a taru in 1 shot).

The most important thing is when you have a BRD in the PT, don't be an anoyance with your positioning so we can easily sing for you without creating problem, same thing for RDM. I used to get mad at WHM and RDM who would fight but now I'm okay with it because I know how to work on my range but keep in mind that its hard for us BRD to deal with moving mage because of the way our song cancel eachother so be carefull when you melee or cast your Bar spell, make sure you keep your back toward the back row, don't fight on the sides.

Icemage, your excuse for not fighting because monster TP is dumb. Who give a damn that you crank up his TP by 2% each hit, its not like its going to make him throw another WS because of that but even if it did, by fighting you shorten the duration of the fight so the monster will have dealt less dmg over time. My WHM at level 33 is dealing around 20-25 a hit with his Mace so I don't feel like my DMG is useless but I can aggree with you that if you're dealing less than 10 per it, its probably not worth it.

But the most important part about fighting WHM is that it makes the Job alot more fun. Its so damn boring to stand in the backline and just press your macro over and over. When you fight, the job is so more amusing because do something else that stare at HP/MP bar. Im not saying you should always fight but taking out your weapon and smashing it on the monsters heads is good and by no way you should think that this can make things worst.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Apple Pie

Synby, I don't think we had problem with this.

Red Lotus Blade => Howling Fist => Spinning Slash + AerogaIII or Thunder III.

Our PT (All LV68) consisted of BLM, BRD, DRK, MNK, PLD, and myself as WHM (I wish this were my account).

We weren't able to skillchain every fights but did one every two fights. Our PLD never needed to rest because she was always drinking Melon Juices, wearing Vermillion Cloak while resting and have always Ballad II (mostly due to great BRD) on her.

Not sure if we did great amount of xp but I believe we didn't do bad.

I think you meant RLB > Rangeki > Spinning Slash. How often do you get a PLD who uses juice regularly, owns a vermillion cloak, AND a bard? When I have a RDM and a BRD, I don't even need to sit down and rest MP after every fight, but do I get this luxury everyday? No. I think we should focus on something more general, not when you have some kind of luxury, heck, you can even put the WHM in renkei in the above situation if he uses juice everytime, has a Vermillion Cloak, and has a BRD/RDM.

[Apple Pie]

I think we should focus on something more general

I fully agree with you. That's a rare case. However, do paladins have problem with their MP when they only have either a bard or a red mage?

When we have an experienced bard like Rekiem who always fill them with Ballad II or a red mage like Jei who always fill them with Refresh, do they really have problem? I'm afraid not. I think they hardly need to rest and still store their TP faster than white mages do (white mages have to rest). I understand HS gives you 50TP back when all six blows hit mobs though.

The real question here is "When a leader forms a PT or you make your own, do you expect WHM to be an attacker?" It's similar to what Jei pointed out. To create LV3 Light renkei, is it better to invite white mages than guys with beard and one-handed axe?

I, as a leader, always have some idea about where to go and which skillchain to be used prior to inviting people. Based on this, I decide who to invite. I believe and hope this is what most people do...

I understand we don't always have ideal setup but it isn't harder to find attackers than to find white mages because the population of foward players is larger (something like 7:3?) than that of mages.

You said we had to think of something in general but do you often hit macros like this? Do most of them above LV67 do this? If you and they do, I don't object anymore. I am wrong. Maybe I sub THF and try fuidama HS some time...

/p [Call me "USU!(‰P)" 1st: Hexa Strike <tp>]

/p [Hexa ikima-------su!]
/ws Hexa Strike <t>
/wait 1
/sh Hyahhhoooooi

Oh well, wanna try some MND+ gears for your silence, Synbios?

[locus]

Apple Pie:

‚P?jApplePie-‚³‚ñ‚Í“ú–{?l‚Å‚µ‚傤‚©?H‚»‚ñ‚È‚Í–lŒ¾‚Á‚ÄŽ–‘S‘R–³ŠÖŒW?B‹M•û‚Í“ú–{?l‚ÍŽ©•ªŽ©–?‚ÌŽ–‚à‚¿‚ë‚ñ‘å?ä•v‚¯‚Ç?A¢“ú–{?l‚¾‚©‚ç?A‰½Ž–‚àŠO?l‚Ì‚æ‚è—Ç?E’m‚Á‚½?v‘S‘R–³—?‚ÆŽ¸—ç‚Å‚·?BŠm‚©‚É?E‚È‚½‚̉pŒêƒ_ƒ?‚¾‚©‚çˆÓ–¡‚¿‚å‚Á‚ƈႤ‚©‚à‚µ‚ê‚Ü‚¹‚ñ?A‚¾‚¯‚ljpŒê‚ÆŒ¾‚¤?A‚`‚?‚?‚Œ‚…‚o‚‰‚…‚³‚ñŒ¾‚Á‚½Œ¾—t‚Í‚±‚ÌŽ©–?‹C‚ª?E‚é‚Ë‚¦?B

Secondly,?@please don't put words into my mouth either. I never said they were the majority NOR implied such a thing. I said I respect them for doing that because it is a HARD road to choose. Whether it makes 5 other people happy or not is moot - ‚k‚u‚k?‚‚¢‚̃Tƒ|–³‚µ?l‚ÍŽ©•ª‘I‘ð‚ÌŽè‚‚«‚Å‚·?B ‚à‚µ‚à‚o‚s‚̃Š?[ƒ_‹C‚É‚·‚é(ŒoŒ±’u‹S‚©‚à?j?A—U‚Á‚Ä‚µ‚Ü‚¹‚ñ‚à‚¢‚¢‚Ë‚¦?B If you're angry just because some person who plays their job well in your party isn't using a support job, where does it stop? Are you angry that everyone in your party doesn't have vermillion and a dark staff?ƒGƒŒ?[ƒX‚È‚µ‚Ì‚¨‹à‚È‚¢?l‚à“{‚点‚é‚Å‚µ‚傤?H?ç’k‚¶‚á‚È‚¢‚æ?B‚±‚ê‚̓Q?[ƒ€‚¾‚¯?B

Red Lotus Blade => Howling Fist => Spinning Slash + AerogaIII or Thunder III.

‚»‚̘AŒg?o—ˆ‚é‚Å‚·?A‚Å‚àƒiƒCƒg‚Ì‚s‚o‚¢‚‚łà’x‚¢‚Å‚Ë‚¦?BƒiƒCƒg‚ÌŽdŽ–‚Í–Z‚µ‚¢‚Å‚·?A‚¢‚‚łàƒPƒAƒ‹?Aƒtƒ‰ƒbƒVƒ…?AƒAƒr?BƒiƒCƒg‚Ì–½’†—¦‚à?_‚µ‚Å‚·?ATP’x‚¢?B

The real question here is "When a leader forms a PT or you make your own, do you expect WHM to be an attacker?" It's similar to what Jei pointed out. To create LV3 Light renkei, is it better to invite white mages than guys with beard and one-handed axe?

•·‚¢‚Ä?E‚¾‚³‚¢?B–lŒ¾‚Á‚½‚»‚ÌLVL3˜AŒg‚̓Iƒ}ƒP‚¾‚¯?B‘O‰q‚̃Wƒ‡ƒu‚̃_ƒ??[ƒW”’–‚“¹Žm‚³‚Á‚Ï‚è?o—ˆ‚È‚¢?A‚»‚ê‚ÍŒ»ŽÀ‚Å‚·?B‚¾‚¯‚ÇSynbios-san‚Í?u‚µ‚ë‚Ü‚Ì‘O‰q”ü–¡‚¢‚Ë‚¦?v‘S‘RŒ¾‚í‚È‚¢‚Ë‚¦?ITo summarize: I didn't get to level 70 not knowing how to play my job. Attacking is just an extra that does NOT to my knowledge hurt the party very much (‚à‚¿‚ë‚ñ‹a‚ƃ}ƒ“ƒhƒ‰‘fX?B)

ˆÃ?Aƒi?AƒV?A”’?A?•?A?Ô‚ÆŒ¾‚¤?A‚±‚ÌPT‚¢‚¢‚ÆŽv‚¤?B‚¾‚¯‚ÇŠÈ’P‚ÌŒõ‚̘AŒg?o—ˆ‚Ü‚¹‚ñ?IƒwƒLƒT?{ƒVƒƒ?[ƒN‚Ìmb?{ƒtƒ@ƒCƒKIII–{“–‚É‚«‚‚¢‚Å‚µ‚½‚Ë‚¦?A‚»‚ê‚©‚çƒ`ƒFƒCƒ“‚T‚»‚ë‚»‚ëŠy‚ÆŽv‚¤?B

[Icemage]

The real point to make here is that, whether you, as a WHM, decide to attack or not makes very little difference either way on a battle, based on the damage you deal, the WS (if any) you use, and the amount of TP you give the monster.

The main reason I would advise against doing it, is that I see SO many white mages who can't even do the basics (I'm talking 95% of white mages, even at level 59+):

- Avoid overhealing
- Keep Regen I/II/III active on main tank
- Put Regen I/II on damaged frontliners
- Make sensible use of Divine Seal
- Know how to use Benediction safely
- Know how to use subjob spells/abilities like Elemental Seal + Sleep/Silence, Gravity, Shining Ruby and Aerial Armor
- Know how to use Flash
- Know how to use Blink/Stoneskin
- Know what enemies need to be Silenced
- Know when to use Bar-X-ra spells
- Know what enfeebles you need use, and when to use them
- Know what effects enemy attacks/spells give, what spells counter them, and when to neutralize those effects
- Know where to stand (when there is a Bard in the party, when enemies have cone/area attacks, when someone is using Trick Attack, or when asking a Paladin for Cover).

In my opinion, all of the above game play elements are far more important than any amount of melee a WHM can do. If you can do all of that and pull out your weapon, fantastic. If you can't... then there are more important things you need to take care of before you worry about how much damage you just hit an enemy for.


Icemage

[Apple Pie]

Locus, I can't read most of them unfortunately. Well, I'm wondering if you were just trying to catch me on my own words. We're not discussing something like "How to perform LV3 light skillchain better?" here, do we? I can't understand why you're sticking to it and trying to digress from the main topic.

The reason I started to write comments on this thread is because I casted a doubt on "White Worriors" theory posted on the second part of this thread. Trying something different is certainly O.K. It's just a game as you said. Developping new tactics that noone ever thinks of sounds great if they always work. I don't intend to deny what they are doing. I'd rather copy them if they're worth trying.

However, in order to disprove the established theory (= what 95% of all players are usually doing) by something new, advocates have to show us proofs if they try to make us believe it. This also applies to RDM melee and sub-job controvercy (RDM/Mage vs RDM/Melee).

By the way, I'll say, "Good Job!" to him if he reaches LV75 without sub-job but I respect noone like this. Those whom I respect are anyone making all their effort to contribute to their PT. A sense of values must be different between you and me. I don't mean to say which one is better though.

EDIT:
I don't respect noone -> I respect noone

[locus]

Apple Pie
- I'm one step from giving up. I can't speak to you in Japanese, I can't speak to you in English and frankly I don't know what language I should be using to get my point across. I couldn't understand half of what you said in the last post either, but I've tried my best.

Firstly, I wasn't talking about how to perform a level 3 light skillchain. I was merely referring to an example in which a white mage in combat was actually semi-useful. This weighs the point with something called "corraborative evidence" in order to assert the validty of the statement. Let's try simple logic.

1)Did the skillchain help the party? - Yes.
2)Would we have been able to do as well without the skillchain? No, we would have done very slightly worse in terms of exp rate.
3)Did anyone die or was the party hampered by this combat? No.

From these three statements, you can assert a hypothesis that white mages in combat CAN be beneficial. (Note: This is not the same as saying that white mages in combat are ALWAYS beneficial.)

It therefore follows that white mages in combat are at times a good idea and therefore it nullifies such sweeping statements as "White mages should never be in combat" or "White mages in combat never do anything significant enough to be helpful". Which was the point I was trying to disprove.

If you can't follow this logic, I really give up.

I can't get the rest of your post.

By the way, I'll say, "Good Job!" to him if he reaches LV75 without sub-job but I respect noone like this.

You're contradicting yourself. Respect isn't the same thing as envy, nor praise. It is far more likely that anyone who has managed to reach that level without a support job is a highly capable person fully capable of performing his or her duties in a party. Not having a support job isn't a decision to be unhelpful to your party - that's like saying "Oh, why couldn't this warrior have been a Paladin or a Ninja instead if he's going to tank" in a party where you only have warriors to work with. That's completely unreasonable.

They choose to play as a weaker class but that does not make them bad players or injurious to the party. I'd prefer a person with no subjob that knew how to play his job well than an idiot with a fully levelled subjob. (like the horrors of the red mage that would not cast refresh, even on himself) When you have no subjob, I'd think you'd have to be AWFULLY good at your main to succeed at getting parties at all. These people get parties based on personal reputation. If they were bad at it - they wouldn't be level 75.

From your logic, you would never invite a tarutaru combat class nor a galka mage into your party (why aren't they playing a better class for their race? That's injurious to the party! </sarcasm>).

People always have to be coerced and cajoled with "proof" and "evidence" to do things. Why the heck don't they go and see for themselves? If you don't form your own opinions and get all your data from secondary sources, that's about as helpful as copying all your homework out of a textbook. Stop copying other people and make your own decisions already.

Edit: Upon reflection, I realized that discrimination really does occur in FFXI. Galkan mages are few and far between because people simply will not invite them over a tarutaru mage. I think it's a sad sad thing when people pass judgment prematurely and value personal gain (in terms of EXP rate) over having fun and meeting people.

[aszid]

hmm...

I have little to no respect for someone that does not use a sub at all. The only reason i can imagine that someone would do this is so they could brag that they did it.

This is not a 1 player game, they are not just making it a challenge for themselves, they are making it a challenge for everyone that ever parties with the person. Even if they are very good at their job, the FACT is that they would be more effective with a sub. regardless if the party is "doing ok", the point is, they could be doing BETTER.

I personally am very annoyed by self-centered people that choose to do things such as no-sub. what you do in this game effects those around you, you are not just hurting yourself, you are hurting the people that party with you as well. it's people that have the perspective of "i can do what i want" that cause the majority of my problems in the game, and quite likely a majority of everyone elses problems as well. someone that levels really high lvl with no sub job is one of those people.


don't take this the complete wrong way, i don't go around yelling at these people, nor to i even attempt to tell them what to do, but i would NEVER invite one of them. i am not trying to attack these people either, i'm just speaking my mind on the topic.


just because someone isn't injurous to the party, doesn't mean that they are good for the party.


*edit to avoid being flamed... hopefully*

While i would never invite someone without a subjob, i could really care less if a person wanted to play the game that way. if they feel the need to make the game more difficult, then be all means i will let them. i guess not being able to find a party would make the game even more difficult as well, thus by not inviting them i'm helping them in their quest for a more challenging game. I'm not going to tell anyone what to do, but i will offer my advice in the hopes that it would help the person.

I don't want to debate good player with no sub vs. bad player with a sub. that's a really poor comparison to make. basically, if the "good player" had a sub, they would be a "better player" and that to me, is a FACT.

*end*

[Jei]

Iocus, you're the one envying others with sub jobs as i feel... icemage apple and a lot of posts here are giving you evidence and reason already...

People always have to be coerced and cajoled with "proof" and "evidence" to do things. Why the heck don't they go and see for themselves? If you don't form your own opinions and get all your data from secondary sources, that's about as helpful as copying all your homework out of a textbook

I ask you, when you learn from school do you read text books? Are they secondary source? That's so simple. Knowledge are not built over night. It's a collection of records. People have learnt many many things over time and they record them. Through that, they have tested, they have experimented and recorded them for us, to learn from. "Secondary sources" IS the main knowledge source for us these days. And has been for centuries. Yes you can't perfect anything without practice, but without the book telling you the equation how can you even start practicing?

I have no doubt in Apple pie's english skill, reading from the way he posts. But Icorus you're just so close minded.

You can just give us 1 final word and we'll leave you alone.
"I will be a white warrior and I don't care what you think so don't waste time trying to convey me"
That's just what you're doing.

Better leave him alone Applepie ;o

[locus]

I have a subjob, Jei. It's maxed. I have no idea what you're talking about. Why the heck would I envy people with them?

"Icemage and a lot of others" - and Lyonesse and my opinions don't count? (shakes head) Our opinions are equally as valid, you do realize? Did you even consider them?

I ask you - when you go to school, you do practicals right? All secondary sources of information come from primary sources. Secondary information is never static but has to be refined, tested and tried again from experimentation and daring. Five hundred years ago if you had accepted "standard knowledge", flies spontaneously spawned from meat, the earth was probably created in 7 days, and diseases were all in your blood and should be cured by leeches. Primary research is the foundation of secondary knowledge and without continuous testing and refining, secondary knowledge is paralyzed. The reason you do practicals in school is to learn never to take things for granted.

(sidenotelease don't get my nickname wrong. It's locus, the singular of loci, spelt with a "L". It is not Iocus (I understand why you would think it was) but it is definitely NOT 'Icorus'. I respect you enough to remember your name and spell it correctly; is it too much to ask for the same?)

"I will be a white warrior and I don't care what you think so don't waste time trying to convey me"

You know, this statement combined with the accusation of me being jealous of not having a subjob convinces me that you're making the mistake Lyonesse accused him of doing.

You. Are. Not. Reading. What. I. Write.

I never was a proponent of being a front row warrior. I have played white mage for 70 levels - and I think I know how to play a white mage, thank you very much for being condescending. (All that patronizing in your last post was frankly uncalled for and I do find it offensive). If I didn't know how to play one, word would get around pretty fast and I'd find it near-impossible to party with the same people again. The purpose of this thread was to give advice for someone who wanted to know how to use a white mage in melee, and needed opinions or advice. NOT to be completely unhelpful and say "don't do it".

Frankly, you are not helping your case because from what you have said in your last post, I think it is fairly clear you either did not read or did not understand what had said in my previous posts.

I realize that you and ApplePie are good friends and it is only natural to defend a good friend from what may be perceived as an attack, but I do not mean him any ill will. This is a forum. It is a place for rational and CALM debate and an expression of ideas and beliefs. Integral to this is mutual respect. I apologize if my frustration with being misinterpreted or not being able to understand him (or not being able to get a point across) appeared hostile, but I can assure you it was not. I am sure that ApplePie is a capable and experienced white mage, but I do differ with him on certain aspects which I view as "mercenary" but others may view as "practical". Nevertheless, I do respect his opinion... and perhaps it would help if I was capable of bridging this communications gap.

Enough of this. I've said enough on this topic and I'll take my leave now.

aszid: - Point taken. Perhaps they may be a little self-centered, but I feel that it is unwise to judge people so prematurely - after all, I don't see them boasting nor bragging in /shout or /say all over Jeuno. I advise you merely to avoid partying with them, as it appears to be a conflict of interest. But that's just my two cents.

[Synbios]

Originally posted by Apple Pie

I fully agree with you. That's a rare case. However, do paladins have problem with their MP when they only have either a bard or a red mage?

When we have an experienced bard like Rekiem who always fill them with Ballad II or a red mage like Jei who always fill them with Refresh, do they really have problem? I'm afraid not. I think they hardly need to rest and still store their TP faster than white mages do (white mages have to rest). I understand HS gives you 50TP back when all six blows hit mobs though.

The real question here is "When a leader forms a PT or you make your own, do you expect WHM to be an attacker?" It's similar to what Jei pointed out. To create LV3 Light renkei, is it better to invite white mages than guys with beard and one-handed axe?

I, as a leader, always have some idea about where to go and which skillchain to be used prior to inviting people. Based on this, I decide who to invite. I believe and hope this is what most people do...

I understand we don't always have ideal setup but it isn't harder to find attackers than to find white mages because the population of foward players is larger (something like 7:3?) than that of mages.

You said we had to think of something in general but do you often hit macros like this? Do most of them above LV67 do this? If you and they do, I don't object anymore. I am wrong. Maybe I sub THF and try fuidama HS some time...

/p [Call me "USU!(‰P)" 1st: Hexa Strike <tp>]

/p [Hexa ikima-------su!]
/ws Hexa Strike <t>
/wait 1
/sh Hyahhhoooooi

Oh well, wanna try some MND+ gears for your silence, Synbios?

I don't remember saying I have problems with my MND gear, mmm.. but if you wanna, why not? The only stuff I lack for my MND gear is the Promise Badge and I have to complete the Star Necklace quest 1st before I can take on the PB quest, and the uber ex WHM shield which I'm still waiting for my friend to get his Alchemy high enough to synth one for me and try for a HQ, the other gear I use would have to be all changed to HQ if I really want to squeeze out maybe +4/5 MND, and they'll cost quite a few thousand. Stuff like Red Cape +1, Sainty +1 X 2 (which I would gladly use Electrum instead). Then again, I don't think they're worth it considering how often I need to silence. Better to throw those gil into my Erase funds.