RDM/WHM VS WHM/BLM.

[Peppara]

I prefer the WHM + RDM mix in a PT. Its just a great balanced combo

[Icemage]

Many players, even at high levels (particularly those who play exclusively in set parties) do not understand some of the subtle differences that occur as you go up in levels.

Traditional roles for RDM and WHM:

RDM: Enfeeble, Dispel, Refresh, backup heal, backup nuke

WHM: Heal, party buff, backup enfeeble

The factor of enmity is huge at higher levels. Take a look at the RDM arsenal and you'll see something very interesting.

A traditional RDM will:

Slow (moderate enmity)
Paralyze (moderate enmity)
Gravity (moderate enmity)
Sometimes Dia II/Bio II (moderate enmity)
Refresh (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (rarely)
Activate Convert (low enmity)
Cast nuking spells for magic burst (high enmity)

This means that in this style of RDM will accumulate very low amounts of enmity overall, even if they attack with a weapon.

A traditional WHM will:

Regen I/II/III (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (very frequently)
Cure IV (high enmity) (rarely)
Cure V (moderate enmity) (depends on group/level)
Flash (high enmity) (frequently)
Activate Divine Seal (low enmity, but doubles the enmity of next spell)
Cast Curaga I/II/III (high enmity)

Smart WHM rely on their low-enmity tools (Regen I/II/III) as much as possible, and pull out the big guns (Flash, Cure IV, Divine Seal, and Benediction) only at critical moments. The ones that don't are the ones who you see lying dead after a fight. To assist in this, WHM AF gives WHM a huge edge in decreased enmity.

Now... lets look at the RDM who decides to be primary healer:

Slow (moderate enmity)
Paralyze (moderate enmity)
Gravity (moderate enmity)
Sometimes Dia II/Bio II (moderate enmity)
Refresh (low enmity)
Cure III (moderate enmity) (frequently)
Activate Convert (low enmity)
Regen I (low enmity)
Cast nuking spells for magic burst (high enmity)
Cure IV (high enmity) (rarely)
Curaga (if /WHM) (high enmity)

Look at how many spells the healer RDM has to cast. Not only is that a LOT of spells to deal with, but the RDM is racking up enmity like crazy. So... now the RDM has a lot of enmity, and is almost guaranteed to get hit. What does he do?

If he's smart, the healer RDM will:
Phalanx
Stoneskin
Blink

But now you're talking about a huge list of spells that the RDM has to cast. There just isn't enough time to cast all of those spells all the time, and even the extra MP you get from using Convert won't cover the MP expenditure for long. On top of that, because the healer RDM has so much enmity, Convert becomes a very dangerous move in clutch situations, since casting Cure III or IV on yourself after Converting, instead of being a no-brainer for the RDM, becomes an invitation to die.

People need to look past the numbers and really SEE how these things work in practice. For the above reasons, RDM primary healer parties are almost always bad. The only way it really works is if you have 2 RDM (a VERY rare sight, though I've seen it a couple times) to share the enmity, and even then, if you have 2 RDM, you're STILL better off with a WHM + RDM combination.


Icemage

[Coinspinner]

Do WHM really use Flash? I know that it's a very powerful version of Blind and PLD love it to build up Enmity and reduce the damage they take... but is the blindness really sorth the enmity for a WHM?

[Navia]

I haven't bought flash yet since i'm normally partied with a PLD that uses it liberally to gain enmity. When and why would a whm use this spell?

[Issaac]

Originally posted by imac2much
Your poor spelling and grammar notwithstanding,

Im sorry, i should had been more attentive in school. Im german, thats my only excuse.

[zaldane]

my exp has been and i love reds in party, that trying to stay on top of refresh and debuffs/dispell takes alot of there time. you really need a dedicated healer to keep exp going.

i use flash alot, has very fast cast time.

[Yuanlung]

RDM maybe able to fill in as the healer, but they can never be the healer that WHM can be. It's even more farfetched to come out and say RDM>WHM.

Since many have already listed out the advantage of WHM in the curative department, I'd like to comment about the status restoring spells, or know as the -na line.

Ever died the slow, agonizing death to the poison of a crawler? got blinded? slowed? CURSED? or got any other annoyng bad status that you wish you didn't get? guess what? you are in need of a white mage.

The status restoring spells are availible exclusively to white mages. Sure that RDM can sub WHM and get access to these spells, but like anything /WHM, you get them at twice the level.

This isn't a significant advantage, just another thing to concider when you feel like ditching the WHM because you got a RDM in your party. Then again you could always just buy items that do the same or just tough it out, as a certain WAR often said after a crawler poison: "I'll walk it off.", which has also become his famous last words.

[Rawls]

wouldn't it be alright to say that once a RDM gains convert and refresh and a WHM gets all the good spells of the same level that RDMs=WHMs. Since in order to be truely effective in chaining a WHM is reliant on a RDM for refresh. While, as Icemage stated, a RDM doing its job w/ debuffing, enfeebles etc. wouldn't have time to keep up with healing, or at least not without gaining an extreme amount of aggro...

[Deodorant]

Also refresh isn't quite the super-killer-one-spell-owns-all-others that some people seem to think it is. In a 3-mage and paladin party, any rdm will tell you that keeping all 4 constantly refreshed takes a big bite out of your mp. Example being that in-between mob pulls, the whm and blm can sit and rest, but the rdm often finds himself having to stand and recast refresh every mp tick, which ruins his mp regen rate.

This often results in the rdm's mp levels lagging behind the other two mages, because he is basically sacrificing his mp regen to speed up others. Most of the time this isn't a problem, because typically by the time rdm's mp bar empties convert reuse timer is up. However, if you expect an rdm to do main healer duties in addition to everything he normally does, that mp balance is going to go out the window.

Besides, most rdm's I know don't like being pushed into healer role - we'll take on main healer job if we have to, but we're much happier doing what our job was designed to do.

[Rones]

I'm not nearly high enough lvl, but can't whms get refresh clothing anyway to conteract the rdms advantage with the refresh spell?

[Miriamel]

There are certain clothes that give you a "refresh" affect at level 60+, but

a) those only refresh 1MP/3 seconds and
b) they stack with redmage refresh. ^^

[Shiia]

Rdm as main healer post 41 is a nightmare :sweat: . The past 2 days I was primal healer of the group, adding to the fact that one of the group didn't quite helped me in heals...

I already have enough spells to cast during battle. Being main healer will push my casting further. Like Icemage stated I usually cast:

Paralise
Slow
Blind
Gravity
DiaII/BioII (If necesary)
Refresh
Regen
Haste

Adding to the list above I need to toss CureII and IIIs. Convert doesn't become available for like 3 fights on a fast paced group. My mp is usually 0 at the time I can re use convert :dead: . Whm as a healer is much effective after RegenII really... 12hp per tick is very very nice heal spell...

[Asharu]

The best parties I have been in always include a red mage. I would always take a red mage over a white mage if I have the chance. Red mage is just too uber with refresh alone, and throwing in convert pretty much allows no rest time. Spells like Regen II and Regen III are great spells, but all the extra mp you get from a RDM's refresh and convert totally overpowers regen. Simply put, WHMs are only good for raising at high levels. It's sad that WHMs lose popularity once you start grouping with red mages 41+.

As for party formations, RDM+WHM are good to have in a party, but RDM+BLM is just too sweet. (This is risky though if a member of the party dies since there won't be a raise 2 or 3.) BLMs can cure just as well as a WHM (excluding regen), and can do massive damage with MBs. BRD+RDM+BLM... *drool*.

[Issaac]

Originally posted by Shiia
Rdm as main healer post 41 is a nightmare :sweat: . The past 2 days I was primal healer of the group, adding to the fact that one of the group didn't quite helped me in heals...

I already have enough spells to cast during battle. Being main healer will push my casting further. Like Icemage stated I usually cast:

Paralise
Slow
Blind
Gravity
DiaII/BioII (If necesary)
Refresh
Regen
Haste

Adding to the list above I need to toss CureII and IIIs. Convert doesn't become available for like 3 fights on a fast paced group. My mp is usually 0 at the time I can re use convert :dead: . Whm as a healer is much effective after RegenII really... 12hp per tick is very very nice heal spell...

As main healer of the group you would not debuff that much. You cant do both.

Take a 41 human white mage and a 41 human redmage with refresh and convert. Only thing you need to do now is - compare the maximum amouint of hitpoints both can heal with their overall mana -> RDM win.

But before i get hang up as high as possible, i prefer white mage as main also (even if i am on my mules or other jobs). Because he did nothing else then heal for 41 lvls so he normaly knows what he do. whm/rdm or whm/brd is the way to go.

But you can easily go with rdm/rdm or rdm/brd without any problems if you realy take the rdm as healer exclusivly. And no im not talking about lvl 50+.

[illusan]

Maybe I should have said not 50+, because I was in a rush to write the post. When I said RDM could fill most parts I meant they could do a little debuff and still heal at the same time (i'm a taru rdm) but most of the time I am only needing to do 2 or 3 debuff spells so my mana isn't really affected. I've been played as healer/ debuff and a replacement for WHM (below LV50). Every class is good... I too also find WHM + RDM in a party makes the party even better.