RDM/WHM VS WHM/BLM.

[Blondie boi]

Just a few days ago was my first time leveling with a level 41 RDM. I was amazed by how much Refresh and Convert help in a party situation.

The RDM kept Refresh on all the people in the party that needed it at all times. When the puller would come back with a Mob he would cast debuffs on it then sit back and help me heal the Tank. With us both with Refresh and sharing the heals, we almost had no down time at all. And we had a lot of MP to spare. In effectiveness he was doing much more then I was.

The only cure we needed to use was Cure II. Cure III is was not really needed at all(and it gets good amount of Hate)and at level 43 that is the only healing spell that should be used in a battle that a level 43 RDM does not have. Getting Cure spells to their Heal caps is not vary hard so his Cure II was just as affective as mine.

I think WHM's have a few good things but RDM’s have things that will match and better most of the WHM’s ability’s and spells.

It starts.. White Mage VS Red Mage...


White Mage stats VS Red Mage stats

Hume White Mage / Black Mage
Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR

45 634 389 39 37 39 40 41 49 44

Hume Red Mage / White Mage
Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR

45 679 343 39 42 37 40 46 43 41

WHM’s don't have to much more MP then RDM's and with Convert and Refresh that gives RDM's much more MP. RDM's have overall higher stats then WHM's besides their MND and Magic Points so RDM's have much more survivability.

Winner .. WHM if you go with just pure stats WHM are better at healing, but if you throw Refresh and Convert RDM's are obviously the winner in this category.


Divine Seal VS Convert...

WHM's have Divine Seal but Convert is obviously much more effective then Divine Seal. Lets say at the most Divine Seal makes Cure spells two time's stronger, but RDM's convert lets them cast at least 12 more Cure II's. (that is not counting them healing themselves after they use Convert.) So it is easily twice as strong.

Winner Convert...


Refresh VS Protectra/Shellra, Curaga and Regen.

I find all the Protectra/Shellra spells vary effective, but a RDM can cast Protect on the Tank and in a good party the only person that "really" needs protect is the Tank. Even in area's where monsters are doing AOE spells Protectra/Shellra will help, but not all that much. So it is nice, but I don't think it is half as affective as Refresh. Refresh can give a party almost NO down time. I have never seen a Protectra/Shellra spell give a party much less downtime.

The Curaga spells are nice, but really they are not going to bring down time up much for the fact that they tend to cost a lot of MP so when the WHM is resting while everyone standing around with full HP waiting on the WHM‘s MP.

Regen is a nice spell to save MP, but really I don't see how it helps all that much. It's a nice spell, but nowhere near as strong or effective as Refresh.

I think that Refresh is prolly the best spell in the game. It can almost kill all downtime in a party that knows that it is doing.

Winner.. Refresh.


WHM's raise ability VS RDM's raise ability.

WHM's are easily the best raiser's in the game. I don't think I need to argue the point so..

Winner White Mage.


Benediction VS Chainspell

Benediction can heal the entire party in one second and it is a VARY nice spell, but in a good party that knows what it is doing this spell should not be needed. Chainspell is kinda weak next to Benediction, but I don't think Benediction and Chainspell are used enough or at times that you are really getting good Exp to effect much.

Winner Benediction!


I guess the fact that WHM's have such better raising spells then RDM's this and the Protectra/Shellra spells could win them a spot in parties.(I don't think that it's really a good enough but I am not sure if at higher levels these spells might be needed more.) And it's not like I think WHM's are totally useless when it comes to healing, but RDM's are just as good and even better for the fact that they have so much less downtime with Convert and Refresh.

I am definitely not trying to bash on White Mages. I am a White Mage myself and enjoy playing the role as one, but I am somewhat aggravated by the fact that RDM's can heal better. I think that Square has made a mistake in the way WHM's and RDM's play roles.

So I think that in the end a party with two RDM's is going to have less down time then a party with a RDM and a WHM. And even alone, I think that after level 41 RDM's make better main healers then WHM's.

If someone can find a flaw in my logic please tell me.. I would be happy to hear a good point why WHM's make better healers then RDM's.

It just does not make sense..

[Pilsbane]

I don't think Square made a mistake by making Redmages good healers too. I think it would be a mistake to make White Mages the only proficient healers. If White Mages were the only good healers you'd get the Everquest-syndrome where you could have 3 of every class present and not be able to raid anything due to not having enough clerics. I hated that.

[Icemage]

WHM get:

- Cure V. There's no way a Red Mage can keep up with the healing power of Cure V. This spell is unbelievably powerful.

- Raise II/III. Hmm... let's see... -1500XP loss at level 56 or -500, or even -200? Take your pick.

- Regen II/III. One of the big keys to WHM success, Regen spells generate a constant stream of healing for minimal enmity. RDM have only Regen I, which does... not much at higher levels.

Overall, the key difference between a WHM healer and RDM/WHM healer is in enmity. WHM have a whole bunch of ways to heal without generating tons of enmity that RDM do not, and the WHM healing arsenal is simply more efficient than RDM's across the board.

Smart parties have both RDM and WHM - anyone at higher levels who thinks an RDM is going to outperform a WHM at the primary healer spot needs to get their head checked.


Icemage

[illusan]

RDM is just a speed caster... imo
They are a good solo class and can fill in most spots in a party.
I personally prefer a RDM over WHM.

Also I'd just like to point out that the RDM 2-Hour is very useless until you get Refresh/Raise/Convert...


Scenario:

Everyone in the party dies... except.... who? RDM


Use 2-Hr...
Refresh
Raise Party
Convert
Heals

Run away~ omgz! ^^



RDM is the jack of all trades, master of none.

[Navia]

Best parties I have been in that generate 4k+ xp an hour have RDM and WHM, to push things even farther add in a BRD.
A RDM that thinks they can fill the role of enfeebler and main healer is going to get smacked around bad by a monster because of all the enmity generated by casting so much.

When you start fighting monsters with nifty moves like sickle slash and death scissors that can go off twice in a span of 5 seconds that can take out your tank, I think you'd be insane to not have a WHM.

I don't know why a RDM would want to be a main healer instead of sticking with enfeeble/refresh/link control and doing MB on renkei.

[Miriamel]

Yes, I agree. It's always wise to have two people capable of healing in a party and usually, you will want both - a red mage and a white mage.

[Issaac]

Accept everybody in the group would use a reraise scroll....

RED > WHITE

With convert and Refresh a RED does has about twice the mana of a WHITE. His heals are not that effective as the WHITE once so he ends up at maybe RED = 1.8 X WHITE.

You only need a White as feelgod for raise. Thats why they prey as hell that we never get our fingers on convert and refresh (if they would raise the lvl cap > 80).

[Sera]

Heh. I find this oddly amusing...

Okay, even though I am a WHM I will admit that in high level parties you can replace a WHM with two (not just one) decent RDMs. That much I will give you. But frankly, I prefer the more balanced approach. Each job has it's niche in the game world and in the cases of the three main mage classes, they work best when they are able to work with each other. Some of my best parties have been with a WHM, BLM, and RDM in the group. I won't write off RDM entirely, but I will say that there is no class that can heal as efficiently as a WHM can. Even with convert... man, I would NOT want to have to convert my health when the mob is only at half health.

[Issaac]

Why would you? I use Cure 3 as my main spell, Cure 2 if i know about a freaking spezial attack which force me to hold my tank complete healed over the whole fight.

A Redmage of same lvl can use also Cure 3 less effektiv as i and Cure 2 same effektiv as me. He has a little lower mana then me. So even if he heals with Cure 3 and only cures 178 instead of 190hp, its not a big issue with Refresh on him. After fight, when i am at 1/3 of my Mana he just use convert and is nearly Full mana again. You dont need 2 Redmages to compensate a white. One is more then enough. Sure a white mage is feelgood if you need a raise.

If you compare the mana/healed hp and the rest amount of mana after the fight, the redmage will always win. He may use more hp to heal same amount, but will end up with more mana then a white.

[imac2much]

So you're saying just because at YOUR level and in YOUR parties, RDM do better jobs than you, you consider RDM > WHM?

Wrong.

Refer to Icemage's post, there are several reasons why a WHM outedges a RDM in certain key aspects. One thing he failed to mention that really makes a difference at higher levels: Cure V generates LESS hate than Cure IV... a lot less. I read about this from some high level importers on this forum, then several level 60-70 WHMs and RDMs I've talked to in Midgardsormr confirmed this. They said they never get aggro if they slap on a Regen II/III and Cure V when a big special attack takes a chunk out of the tank's HP, but if they used Cure IV or DS+Cure IV in a similar situation they will certainly get aggro.

Also... what the heck do Reraise scrolls have anything to do with this? RDM can raise I too. The difference is that WHM can Raise II so that I lose only 750 xp and not 2250 xp. Yes, there's a noticeable difference.

Neither job is better than the other as a whole... like many others have stated, I prefer having both in my PTs. To say that a RDM > WHM in all instances is extremely shortsighted and narrow-minded.

[Azael]

As a rdm, i can say i do not think of my self as a better healer than a whm, not by a longshot. I can, if i need to be the pts only healer, if and only if the rest of their group can do their job perfectly. But as a RDM, my skills are ment for enfeebling and backup healing and refreshing mages. THAT is my job, i assist the whm and i know my role and thats how you make an efficient PT, whms get more spells earlier than RDM do, so it's really no use comparing them since their roles in group are very different. Rdm's can try to be WHM's but in esscence we're not, i'd much rather have a whm than a psuedowhm rdm in my pt at any rate. Just my opinon tho.

[Issaac]

Originally posted by imac2much
So you're saying just because at YOUR level and in YOUR parties, RDM do better jobs than you, you consider RDM > WHM?

No, i didnt said because of my lvl, i said at my lvl. I never talked about lvl 50+ or Cure V. How could i agrue about a spell i dont have. The reraise was a example to make clear that no raiser is needed in this "imagineable" group. Im quit sure that this RDM > WHM will turn around again once i get Cure V and raise 2, Regen 3 etc.

So dont read my post and think im talking about all lvls and all times, im only talking about lvl 41-50. Before lvl 41 reds are gimps anyway :p

[Pilsbane]

illusan, your view of redmages is skewed. Redmages are only good for speed casting? I guess Refresh is worthless to you, eh? You also use the 'Jack of all trades master of none' which is also false. Redmages are master of enfeebling. Being number 1 at enfeebling and number 2 at nuking and healing is pretty damn good for 'just a speed caster'.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Issaac


No, i didnt said because of my lvl, i said at my lvl.
...

So dont read my post and think im talking about all lvls and all times, im only talking about lvl 41-50. Before lvl 41 reds are gimps anyway :p

What the hell are you babbling? Nowhere in your post is there any disclaimer that says: "The following only applies for my level."

No, you say this:

Originally posted by Issaac
Accept everybody in the group would use a reraise scroll....

RED > WHITE

With convert and Refresh a RED does has about twice the mana of a WHITE. His heals are not that effective as the WHITE once so he ends up at maybe RED = 1.8 X WHITE.

You only need a White as feelgod for raise. Thats why they prey as hell that we never get our fingers on convert and refresh (if they would raise the lvl cap > 80).

Basically, you said RDM > WHM. You didn't say "at my level, RDM > WHM."

If you want people to know you're talking about level 41-50 gameplay, then say so. We're not mindreaders. Don't blame readers for misunderstanding your post, blame your poor presentation.

Your poor spelling and grammar notwithstanding, your reasoning doesn't even make sense. You keep talking about how WHM are just there for raises... but don't you realize RDM get's Raise before Refresh? I agree that at a certain level span a RDM can be just as effective as WHM, but then at later levels the balance shifts again. This is nothing out of the ordinary.. it's just like how *generally* SAM > DRK > DRG levels 30-48, DRG > SAM > DRK levels 49-59, DRK > DRG > SAM levels 60+. Obviously this isn't a failproof generalization, but if you argue from an ability and weapon skill standpoint, it's somewhat true.

Just the same, RDM become "godly" after they get convert and refresh, but there is no reason why you can't have both a RDM and WHM so that the WHM can also have refresh. RDM's also won't have nearly as much time to cure people since he'll be busy casting Refresh on the mages and paladin, enfeebles on the enemy, dispelling the monster, etc... Since you don't have enough time to spam cast lower level cures and have no access to Cure V, you'll have to throw on a *deadly* Cure IV to heal your tank, most likely getting some nasty aggro.

Don't get me wrong, I love both jobs... in fact, if you ask anyone in my LS, they'll all tell you that RDM is my *favorite* job. I think it is a great and very useful class, but I also think they work great in conjunction with a WHM in most cases. WHM are useful and good in their own right, and are not just "effektiv raise feelgods" as you seem to imply.

[Blondie boi]

I never knew that Enmity would play a big role in the WHM’s class, but now that I look at it I see that they get a lot of -enmity equipment. I also never knew that Cure V gets less hate then Cure IV. I might have also underestimated the Regen line of spells, this might because that at level 43 I am still using Regen I. It also makes vary little sense to have two RDM’s in a party. The WHM and RDM combo makes a lot more sense.

I guess that I was wrong to say that RDM’s are better healers, next time I will look into higher level Spells and Equipment before I post.

Thanks for showing me my own wrong.