steel cyclone vs raging rush

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Without Rune let's just do a quick numbers run...

Turban (5) Dusk +1( 4) Speed Belt (6) Haidate (5) Aurum (2) so in an ideal set up, you'd have 22 haste (or 24 if you really splurged on Unicorn +1, but that's only when HP 75%+), so the Rune actually gives you a bit of leeway on haste gear too :D

[Callisto]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Rune should cap you pretty easily with standard gear, I have a totally different TP set for it where I trade in haste for DEX and aim for a higher CRIT build, Walahra/Dusk > Askar, Blitz/Woods > Thunder, and so on.

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

I've been wanting to see forever how RR performs with full crit gear stacked on >.>

Ya ya crit gear is over rated bla bla bla, but the fact remains WAR can potentially stack +18% worth of the stuff, so would be interesting to at least see that in action regardless of how good it would actually be.

[Callisto]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

It all depends on your level of attack compared to the mob. If your attack is at or near cap you'd need at least 2 out of every 3 RR hits to crit in order to top KJ at the same level of attack. The Crit Rate+ TP modifier of RR is as of yet unknown, but even with a 10%~ boost at 100%(the purported boost of Rampage), you'd still need a pretty massive amount to top 66%, the native cap being 29% I believe(full dDEX + 4% from merits), you'd need 28%+ from gear.

Read also: not going to happen.

That said, at lower levels of attack RR crits gain more ground vs. KJ, hence the previous statement: Without large amounts of buffs, use RR, with Berserk/Food and another Attack buff, use KJ.

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

I wonder though, had they left the old TP modifier (damage) in and still made it a crit WS (is there even 1 WS in the game that does that btw? I don't think there is) makes ya wonder if it would be more or less bad ass.

I still find KJ generally outperforms RR, largely in part to that beefy 50% STR mod.

[Callisto]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Crit WS always have a 1.0 fTP, and the majority of them are multi-hits(every hit past the first on every WS also has a 1.0 fTP). The straight comparisons between the two are always going to be extremely situational on everything from gear to buffs to mob.

If you want to be technical, Raging Rush is overall the better WS. It is applicable in a wider variety of situations, against both high and low defense mobs. In ideal situations(all hits manage to crit, but without being forced via Might Strikes) it has a higher ceiling. It cannot make Light, but it can make Fragmentation which is a very solid SC choice, off of many very commonly-used WS, such as Guillo/Yuki/itself.

KJ has a higher practical ceiling, as you're going to find yourself with Berserk + Chaos + Food up a hell of a lot more often than you're going to find yourself critting 3 straight hits, will see more consistent damage overall(relative to itself) without the high and low spikes of RR, and the higher overall ceiling with MS is taken into consideration, but again it's only going to be ideal when you have a very high level of relative attack, and even then the difference is not going to be a whole lot.

If you actually parse the two against each other and use them properly(RR with Bergressor down, KJ with it up) you'll see the difference is really not that great, and were you to use KJ fulltime you'd see that your overall average WS damage is a fair amount lower than were you to be using RR when your buffs are down.

A side note too, but this discussion is also one of the very few times that racial differences can actually come into play and make a difference. For example, as Elv I hit 114 DEX for Raging Rush with my current gear. That puts my dDEX on Greater Colibri at 47. For dDEXs 41-50, every single DEX point you add comes out to 1% crit rate, were I to be hume I'd have an extra 3% crit rate that would likely outdo the 1~ base damage that I'd lose out from the loss of STR. It's minor, but for so many discussions where the conclusion is that it really does not matter which race you are, this is one of the very few situations where it can actually make a difference.

[Armando]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Crit WS always have a 1.0 fTP, and the majority of them are multi-hits(every hit past the first on every WS also has a 1.0 fTP)

Well, Rampage has 0.5, so it'd be slightly more accurate to say that crit WS always have 1.0 fTP at most.

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

IIRC, the thread over @ BG determined that KJ is the better WS over all, though it's 20-something plus page debate and I don't feel like digging it up LOL.

I see you point, but considering the strength of most endgame enemies KJ will generally serve you better (and if I'm not mistaken out perform RR when MS is up)

[Callisto]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Again, it depends on your buffs. If you're always in a COR+BRD party, maybe. If you're generally stuck without a 2nd Attack buff, it won't.

Aside from Berserk, without Aggressor you'll get substantial losses on KJ as well due to the amount of STR/Attack that you'd need to give up to pile on accuracy. If you're fairly well maxed out this is much less of an issue, but this isn't BG, the OP and more than likely every single person who has posted in this thread and/or this WAR subforum aren't rocking Hecatomb Cap+1 and EBody. For the purposes of this thread, RR is the superior overall WS.

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

I dunno man, even on high level enemies at least in my persona experience I find KJ almost always out performs RR unless I get stupid lucky. And even then, I tend to DA on KJ fairly often (idk why I just do...) so my own experience has been KJ > RR. RR has always been crappy for me since they changed it to Crit.

[Mezlo]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Agree to disagree lol?

[Lmnop]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

/shrug. I don't have zomgawesome gear, but I have pretty good gear. I think I'd describe myself as the 2nd tier above AH warrior: all the important stuff is rare/ex, and I have Haidate. But I lack Perdu Voulge and a lot of high end stuff (Ares, most heca).

I normally run with 1 Minuet, 1 March, and attack food/pizza. With that load-out, and the seismic axe, I still typically do as good with RR as I do with KJ. And remember, that's with me only using KJ with bergressor up or to hit a SC. Maybe I'd just need a 2nd Minuet to push me over the top, but one of the guys I run with a lot regularly drops KJs that are 30-50% stronger than mine. He's got the same buffs as me, so it's obviously possible to squeeze in more something that I'm missing.

So I really have to wonder: if I didn't feel bad for not making use of my seismic axe, would I ever use KJ (outside Mighty Strikes, of course)?

Random fact time! Skillchains are actually potent in merit parties. Raging Rush > Raging Rush shreds puks (since there's a lightning component, the "heal wind" thing is ignored and they take full damage), as do most SCs. Since I don't even remember the last time I was the only WAR in meripo, I find myself ditching lots of KJs just for the better SC options.

[Malacite]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Random fact time! Skillchains are actually potent in merit parties. Raging Rush > Raging Rush shreds puks (since there's a lightning component, the "heal wind" thing is ignored and they take full damage), as do most SCs. Since I don't even remember the last time I was the only WAR in meripo, I find myself ditching lots of KJs just for the better SC options.

This actually applies to in any case where the enemy might normally resist (or in the case of Puks absorb) an SC; even if they are strong to 1 of the elements, if there's 2 or more elements to the chain that resistance is totally ignored. And yeah I've busted out a few nasty chains on SAM against Birds.

Hell one time I was on BRD/NIN and for the hell of it decided I'd melee since we had a 2nd BRD pulling. I was averaging 400~600+ Eviscerations and fairly often getting mirror Darkness SC (the two SAM were real dumb asses, mindless spamming gekko and soaking up MP like mad). I was actually out damaging them for a while according to our RDM who had been parsing the party... orz

[Callisto]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

So I really have to wonder: if I didn't feel bad for not making use of my seismic axe, would I ever use KJ (outside Mighty Strikes, of course)?

Not sure if you parsed your stuff, but the only weapon that can really have any viable effect on your WS choice is typically Martial Bhuj, just because it makes Steel Cyclone a bit punchier(though it's still going to be inferior to something along the lines of Perdu using RR/KJ).

As far as the differences between the two, this is what it looks like with March/March/Chaos/Kabobs using RR with Bergressor down and KJ with it up:

stuff

I'd consider my gear for each to be about even, well above average but not really capped for either(No EBody, NQ Heca, no Rajas)

As you can see, when averaged out KJ is slightly stronger than RR, but were I to be using KJ with Bergressor down the average would be noticeably lower. My KJ set sits at 128 STR with 3% more DA than RR, my RR is at 109 STR with capped dDEX(vs. Greater Colibri), 4 Crit Rate+ merits, and an extra 3% from gear. This parse was somewhat short since I tried out Polearm for half of this party, typically my KJ average would be a tad higher than this, also the RDM was not casting Dia and we had no DRK to boost Chaos Roll, so I was likely not fully capped on Attack the bulk of the time even with buffs up.

I pretty much always WS as close to 100% as possible, making the extra fTP of a 200% KJ negligible...so with the benefit of a large amount of base D increase(about 5 greater fSTR and an even larger amount from the extra 15% STR mod taken out of a larger amount of STR), an extra 25% Attack from Berserk, and an extra 3% DA, KJ only beats out RR by a relatively small amount.

Again, both WS are more or less equal as they have their place. Fully buffed, use KJ, high-defense mobs or not fully buffed, use RR, neither is correct to use 100% of the time, neither is really a superior WS.

Also for II if you're interested, not sure what defensive info you're looking for but here's the kParser file from the party that consisted of MNK/WAR WAR/SAM(me) DRG/RDM COR/RNG BRD/NIN RDM/WHM, you can open this up in KP and maybe get the type of info you were looking for:

http://slashangry.net/callisto/tpburn2.sdf

It's not really a prime example of the party I'd make to go all-out DD in, but I was nearly full-timing Hasso except for when the mage was entirely out of MP.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: steel cyclone vs raging rush

Off-topic alert~

http://slashangry.net/callisto/tpburn2.sdf

It's not really a prime example of the party I'd make to go all-out DD in, but I was nearly full-timing Hasso except for when the mage was entirely out of MP.

That was a response to this exchange, right?

DD/NIN vs. DD/subDD debate

My LS 'merit' party last night was DRG/NIN, RNG/NIN, SAM72(?)/NIN, THF73/NIN (pickup), RDM/WHM (rusty RDM healer--me). Greater Colibri, 18.2k/hr (w/out ring); I was mildly (and pleasantly) surprised.

The party was taking ~308 damage/minute on average (Total damage taken / Party duration ). What kind of damage/minute does an all DD/SAM (and/or SAM/not-NIN) merit party typically take?

This is more or less the whole crux of the /DD vs. /NIN debate, when done properly /DD comes out ahead not only in XP/hr, but in damage taken, simply because things are not alive long enough to TP more than twice, and generally only one of those will be a Pecking Flurry.

Itazura's example: ~308 dmg/min taken
Callisto's example: ~794 dmg/min taken

As you said, though, that may not have been the best example for the DD/DDsub; you were only getting ~16.4k exp/hr in that party, which is fairly low for a BRD+COR party.


Here's another recent example from my experience (Feb. 6th), with much stronger DDs.

Camp: Greater Colibri (lower camp)
Party: WAR/NIN, SAM/NIN x3, WHM/SCH, BRD/NIN
Rate: ~24.4k exp/hr
Damage: ~257 dmg/min taken

Looks like stronger DDs may lead to less damage taken, but I'm not sure that's from the birds having fewer chances to do TP moves or just they spend more time running (instead of fighting all the time) since I couldn't always get birds/Wivre to where they were before they finished one.