TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

[Callisto]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

To be perfectly blunt, I didn't even know that there were that many Sushi vs Def food debates for Pld, is that just in lower lvls? I do know that Plds usually prefer to stack haste, especially when subbing nin, over Def gear. And they still manage to hold hate exceedingly well. Everything I hear says that stacking too much def, which a Pld can easily do, will have much less returns so if a Pld can reach that point with /nin then losing Defender doesn't exactly hurt them.

That's at 75, leveling up PLD/NIN is absolutely useless prior to 72, and even then not very functional until 74-75. That's a whole lot of time that it spends dependant on Provoke.

And even though a Drk/Nin can't full time tank, they can survive better then a War/Nin because, again, a Drk can restore it's own HP and stop devastating attacks/halt a mob's normal hits to help recast Utsu. With increased haste gear, all of their "defensive" skills become more useful. But War can't do anything but take it on the chin if shadows fall.

WAR also has Retaliation to boost Counter rates when shadows are down, and DRK's ability to restore its own HP can be limited against IT+ mobs(or even VT Colibri, since they are resistant and likely to cast one back at you even stronger than the one you cast on them), when the mobs could likely resist Drains, and Stun/Weapon Bash both create large amounts of hate, resulting in the DRK getting his head even further bashed in. And again, Dread Spikes won't save you from TP moves and 1-shots.

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Retalation does nothing for defense though as you still take the hit. Moreover, any special abilities like drain samba and even double attack do not proc. Retaliation and Counter are not the same thing at all. WAR's defensive abilities just plain suck.

[Callisto]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Ah, I see. Well then I fall back upon my second rebuttal: no u

[Aksannyi]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Retaliation is great for skilling up, lol, I never go without it.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

That's at 75, leveling up PLD/NIN is absolutely useless prior to 72, and even then not very functional until 74-75. That's a whole lot of time that it spends dependant on Provoke.

I wouldn't say "dependant" on provoke, especially now that we know how the hate values work from it. But before 74, there's really not much else for Pld to sub for short fights. Provoke is a hate grabbing ability, but not a hate building one.

WAR also has Retaliation to boost Counter rates when shadows are down, and DRK's ability to restore its own HP can be limited against IT+ mobs(or even VT Colibri, since they are resistant and likely to cast one back at you even stronger than the one you cast on them), when the mobs could likely resist Drains, and Stun/Weapon Bash both create large amounts of hate, resulting in the DRK getting his head even further bashed in. And again, Dread Spikes won't save you from TP moves and 1-shots.

As pointed out, Retaliation offers no damage mitigation in any way, it only allows you to hit back for TP when you're hit first. And while it's a wonderful ability and I the hell out of it, I can't really call it a "defensive" skill. It's an offensive ability that only works when you take a hit. Meaning it doesn't work through Utsu or Third Eye. Really, the only way it can help assist a war defensively is if they sub /dnc for the increased TP gain.

And while Drk's abilities may be limited against ITs and Colibri...they're still better then War's. ITs will hit ridiculously hard, regardless of Def. Plds don't stack Def to avoid being one-shot, they stack HP/Dmg reduction gear/spells/abilities. I mean, yes, in the end a Drk will still get their face pummeled in against IT mobs, but so will Wars. Which is as far as I'm concerned where the problem lies. Wars should be able to survive better then the other melees, but not as well as Pld or Nin. But currently that's just not the case.

[Celeal]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

For emergency or short team tanking, Retaliation + G.Axe is awesome for TP and Hate gain, especially for WAR/SAM or WAR/DNC. However, I have no clue why the game developers design Retaliation the way it is now. If Retaliation can be access at low ~ mid levels, at which tanking with Def+ can mean something ... but at level 60 is just too late.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

It's definately meant to be used with /Dnc as hate gain was never a problem with War. But increased TP gain means they can use /Dnc's cures and abilities with less strain on their Dmg output.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

To be perfectly blunt, I didn't even know that there were that many Sushi vs Def food debates for Pld, is that just in lower lvls?

I am a strong proponent of eating Sushi 50-75. Yet in every thread I've brought that up, someone argues that there's no way eating Sushi is going to be better than eating Defense food.

And even though a Drk/Nin can't full time tank, they can survive better then a War/Nin because, again, a Drk can restore it's own HP and stop devastating attacks/halt a mob's normal hits to help recast Utsu. With increased haste gear, all of their "defensive" skills become more useful. But War can't do anything but take it on the chin if shadows fall.

DRK has nothing to stop "devastating attacks" unless by "devastating attacks" you mean "normal hits." DRK is still going to eat full Sickle Slash damage. And the harder the mob, the less a DRK can do to prevent it from raping its face. I can't imagine draining most IT++ or HNM mobs going all too well, nor can I imagine Dread Spikes lasting very long. WAR may have to take it on the chin, but he'll take it on the chin a hell of a lot better than the DRK with Defender up, and he can have Defender up full time. And, like I said, if the WAR really has to take it on the chin for whatever reason, he can wear a Size 3 shield as well. DRKs have 0 Shield Skill.

But, again, if you're going to argue for a main job's defensive abilities, leave the sub out of it. Stun shouldn't be a pro because it can help recast every other Utsusemi: Ichi (which is unnecessary if the mob has Elegy on it) because you're the one arguing for DRK's superiority at mitigating damage over WAR. If we wanted to consider subs and if we were considering tanking situations then the WAR/NIN is going to have the appropriate support to make sure he can recast Ichi either way.

SE specifically said they increased the shield Block rate and then gave Plds a spell that increases that rate even more. On top of the TP returns and spell interrupt down gained from Shield Mastery. That's a pretty clear increase in "skill" (though I will admit, the word I used was fairly misleading) when it comes to using a shield.

The only thing the WAR is going to be missing out on is the Shield Mastery bonuses. They're nice but they're not necessary, and they don't really mitigate damage.

Pld was seen as useless compared to nin for just about everything because the only thing a Pld could do defensively was increase it's Def. They had to change that because just increasing Def wasn't enough of a defensive tool to be useful.

No, a PLD still had his shield, and Flash, and Cures. They had to change it because not taking damage is always better than taking damage. Who wants a tank that takes hits to the face when a NIN can go fights getting hit only once or twice? If NIN's recast timers were higher and NINs took more damage, nothing would've been inadequate about PLD's style of tanking.

Sam, Drg and Mnk blow War's defensive skills away and Drk, a job who's supposed to be nothing but offense, can actually survive longer when combining it's natural abilities with defensive skills from subs.

Again, not really. We've been over this. Only SAM holds a candle to WAR's defensive abilities. DRG needs a healing wyvern to stay alive, and besides soloing or low-manning stuff they're going to be offensive. MNK's defensive abilities are flaky, that's why we don't tank stuff with them. For a MNK to mitigate damage well he needs a specialized gear set to max out his Counterstance effectiveness so he counters enough hits to justify getting hit for triple damage on hits that get through, and he still runs the risk of being one-shotted by any mob with dangerous physical TP moves. We've been over DRK; DRK needs to become an MP sponge to even pretend it can mitigate damage, and against tougher things it's still not going to work out well.

But that's the thing, all those other jobs can melee DD just as well as War regardless of Sub, and they all (except for Rng) get better ways to suppliment their survival when combined with a proper sub. War should be able to exceed these classes in terms of defensive abilities, not be on par...or worse...then them.

I would like to see a DRG/WAR take hits to the face better than a WAR/anything. I would also like to see a DRK/WAR take hits to the face better than a WAR/anything. Or MNK. It doesn't happen.

And while Drk's abilities may be limited against ITs and Colibri...they're still better then War's. ITs will hit ridiculously hard, regardless of Def.

False, false, false. Why do you keep saying this? There is a difference between "ITs will never hit for low numbers" and "ITs will always hit really hard no matter what you do." No matter how high your Def gets, an IT will never hit for negligible damage. It'll bottom out at a number that isn't small enough to ignore. However, Defense CAN and DOES get those numbers down to a much more manageable range. How can you even pretend that a WAR using Defender is going to take the same damage as a DRK, or a DRK/WAR with Berserk?

As long as you believe Defense does nothing, there's no way I can argue with you. Of course other jobs have better damage mitigation when you think Defender doesn't help at all.

[Celeal]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Well, I had done WAR/DNC tanking in two 67 ~ 68 parties at Imps Camp. It was messy, but functional at the bare minimum (aiming for survival before exp. rate).

However, I think a SAM/DNC can tank better than a WAR/DNC.

There isn't much reliable subjob choice for melee to boost his defensive tools, unlike subjob choice for damage output.

[Nuriko]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

You know, if more defense doesn't do anything, then less defense doesn't do anything either ... I should tank as WHM! I mean, I'll have LOTS of healing ability, so lots of hate there...

Really, def may not do a lot beyond a certain point, but don't say it does nothing!

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

DRK has nothing to stop "devastating attacks" unless by "devastating attacks" you mean "normal hits." DRK is still going to eat full Sickle Slash damage. And the harder the mob, the less a DRK can do to prevent it from raping its face. I can't imagine draining most IT++ or HNM mobs going all too well, nor can I imagine Dread Spikes lasting very long. WAR may have to take it on the chin, but he'll take it on the chin a hell of a lot better than the DRK with Defender up, and he can have Defender up full time. And, like I said, if the WAR really has to take it on the chin for whatever reason, he can wear a Size 3 shield as well. DRKs have 0 Shield Skill.

IT++ and HNMs will tear apart a War just like they will a Drk. Which is the problem. And while Dreadspikes and Drain won't be much use against them, neither will defender because mobs will still hit like freaking trucks. But at least Drk can use Stun to stop -ga spells, bomb tosses, big moves. War will just have to rely on Def and HP, combined with whatever bonus they get from sub, which just isn't enough.

But, again, if you're going to argue for a main job's defensive abilities, leave the sub out of it. Stun shouldn't be a pro because it can help recast every other Utsusemi: Ichi (which is unnecessary if the mob has Elegy on it) because you're the one arguing for DRK's superiority at mitigating damage over WAR. If we wanted to consider subs and if we were considering tanking situations then the WAR/NIN is going to have the appropriate support to make sure he can recast Ichi either way.

I'm arguing for having a main job ability that can at least suppliment a sub job ability to combine into a somewhat viable defensive build. If we're going to throw in support situations, then other jobs will have just as much. Drks can get Hastes/refresh and lower their recasts while increasing their MP. Stun really is a powerful tool to help keep shadows up, especially since it works on so many things. But while Stun, and even Drain and Dread spikes, can help reduce and mitigate Dmg a Drk/Nin will take while assisting in recasts, War/Nin will just have increased Def, which as you get more, gets less useful. War won't have any way to heal themself or stop large attacks like Drk does.

The only thing the WAR is going to be missing out on is the Shield Mastery bonuses. They're nice but they're not necessary, and they don't really mitigate damage.

No, a PLD still had his shield, and Flash, and Cures. They had to change it because not taking damage is always better than taking damage. Who wants a tank that takes hits to the face when a NIN can go fights getting hit only once or twice? If NIN's recast timers were higher and NINs took more damage, nothing would've been inadequate about PLD's style of tanking.

They also modified Sentinal to a Damage Reduction+Hate building JA from a pure Def boost and changed Rampart from being an AoE def boost to a Magic Dmg reduction JA. As well as adding Auto-refresh and reprisal. Back when it was just Shield, Flash and Cure, the Shield would only proc rarely, and the Flash and Cures would ripped through a Pld's MP quickly. They needed to add a lot just to balance it against Nin, and even change straight up Def boosting JAs to damage reduction ones because straight Def wasn't enough. Which is the same problem War is facing now.

And while Shield Mastery in itself doesn't mitigate damage, the interrupt reduction on them helps with casting cures and spells. Which, in the end, mitigates damage.

Again, not really. We've been over this. Only SAM holds a candle to WAR's defensive abilities. DRG needs a healing wyvern to stay alive, and besides soloing or low-manning stuff they're going to be offensive. MNK's defensive abilities are flaky, that's why we don't tank stuff with them. For a MNK to mitigate damage well he needs a specialized gear set to max out his Counterstance effectiveness so he counters enough hits to justify getting hit for triple damage on hits that get through, and he still runs the risk of being one-shotted by any mob with dangerous physical TP moves. We've been over DRK; DRK needs to become an MP sponge to even pretend it can mitigate damage, and against tougher things it's still not going to work out well.

Actually people use Mnks to tank smaller things all the time, and anything a War can effectively tank a Mnk, Drg/Mage(especially Blu) or even Drk/Nin can tank just as well. Yes, they'll need specialized builds to do so, but so does War. Defender doesn't magically make War able to take hits or stop attacks, or cast cure III for 7 mp, but other jobs have things that do just that. For anything where War is an "effective" tank, other melees are just as good, if not better. Which is where the problem lies in my eyes, Wars are supposed to be great on offense or defense, but they are severely lacking on defense.

I would like to see a DRG/WAR take hits to the face better than a WAR/anything. I would also like to see a DRK/WAR take hits to the face better than a WAR/anything. Or MNK. It doesn't happen.

Seeing as they would all have the Def bonus and Defender, they'd take hits pretty much the same. Drk can use most heavy armor too outside of a few heavy plate sets. And Mnk, though it doesn't have plate armor, does have easier access to Dmg reduction gear that doesn't suck, which would accomplish the same thing. Drg/War may take slightly more dmg, but it won't be a landslide difference.

False, false, false. Why do you keep saying this? There is a difference between "ITs will never hit for low numbers" and "ITs will always hit really hard no matter what you do." No matter how high your Def gets, an IT will never hit for negligible damage. It'll bottom out at a number that isn't small enough to ignore. However, Defense CAN and DOES get those numbers down to a much more manageable range. How can you even pretend that a WAR using Defender is going to take the same damage as a DRK, or a DRK/WAR with Berserk?

I'll admit that my overuse of hyperboles is a bit off, and I'll apologize for that. I never meant Def makes no difference at any point or situation, just that purely stacking too much of it will make less of a difference the more you pile on. A defensive build needs more then just increased Def, but that's all War is capable of naturally. Other jobs get better ways to mitigate dmg, especially when combined with Subbed abilities, but War's defensive options are too simple, rigid and in the long run ineffective.

As long as you believe Defense does nothing, there's no way I can argue with you. Of course other jobs have better damage mitigation when you think Defender doesn't help at all.

Defender can help...it just doesn't help as well as abilities other Jobs can use.
______________________________

You know, if more defense doesn't do anything, then less defense doesn't do anything either ... I should tank as WHM! I mean, I'll have LOTS of healing ability, so lots of hate there...

Really, def may not do a lot beyond a certain point, but don't say it does nothing!

I hear Whm/Nin does really well in campaign solo.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

What I'd like to know is how this went from a "Use Shield Break! " thread in to a Warrior Tanking/Defense thread. I think that perverted doujin had something to do with it. <_<;

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

IT++ and HNMs will tear apart a War just like they will a Drk. Which is the problem. And while Dreadspikes and Drain won't be much use against them, neither will defender because mobs will still hit like freaking trucks.

It'll still hit the WAR for less. You can't bring up Arhat's gear as a plus for NIN/SAM/MNK and then backpedal and say "the mob will still hit like a truck so Defender isn't a plus."

But at least Drk can use Stun to stop -ga spells, bomb tosses, big moves.

That's not a plus because in any situation where it would matter, there's going to be someone stunning those things either way.

They also modified Sentinal to a Damage Reduction+Hate building JA from a pure Def boost and changed Rampart from being an AoE def boost to a Magic Dmg reduction JA. As well as adding Auto-refresh and reprisal. Back when it was just Shield, Flash and Cure, the Shield would only proc rarely, and the Flash and Cures would ripped through a Pld's MP quickly. They needed to add a lot just to balance it against Nin, and even change straight up Def boosting JAs to damage reduction ones because straight Def wasn't enough. Which is the same problem War is facing now.

You make it sound like Sentinel and Rampart actually gave lots of Def, and that they had good duration. Hint: the amount of Def they gave sucked, and it only stuck around for 30 secs. They just opted to take two near-useless buffs and revamp them rather than giving us more JAs with the same effect. Don't make it look like they needed to take the Def stuff we had and replace it with something useful, because that's not what happened at all. Absorbing physical damage wasn't Utsusemi's only advantage. It'll stop magic too, and that's why we were given Rampart and Fealty.

And while Shield Mastery in itself doesn't mitigate damage, the interrupt reduction on them helps with casting cures and spells. Which, in the end, mitigates damage.

No, it only mitigates damage in a situation where there's no way for you to time the spell at all. Few people bank on Shield Mastery kicking in to get spells off.

Actually people use Mnks to tank smaller things all the time, and anything a War can effectively tank a Mnk, Drg/Mage(especially Blu) or even Drk/Nin can tank just as well.

Those things aren't threats. I'm talking about stuff that aren't "smaller things."

And Mnk, though it doesn't have plate armor, does have easier access to Dmg reduction gear that doesn't suck, which would accomplish the same thing.

Darksteel Harness Set, Askar Gambieras, Acheron Shield. SAM/NIN/MNK aren't the only ones with access to damage reduction gear.

[Lunaryn]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

The "Defense does nothing" argument leads only to the conclusion that the only jobs that have ANY damage mitigation tools at all are NIN, WHM, RDM, SMN, THF (2-hour) and maybe PLD and BLM if you count Flash and Blind. After all, those are the only jobs that have any tools to avoid damage altogether. Everyone else is stuck actually taking damage, and thus being completely ineffective because the important mobs hit them for "too much" damage.

Meanwhile, most of us know that as broken as defense gets at the extremes, it is in fact critical for most normal damage-taking situations, unless you're in an all-/NIN party trading hate for perpetual shadows. BLM soloing wouldn't even be that risky if you took the kind of damage a WAR or PLD does when caught with shadows/buffs down. And WAR gets access to some of the best defensive gear throughout a wide range of levels. And defense bonuses. etc.

The claim that DRK can take damage better than a WAR is absurd on its face. A DRK/BLM fighting skillup mobs can be raped faster than a much higher level healer can keep them alive, even with proper armor and tools like Drain and Stun. I wouldn't want to hold hate on anything without a WAR (Defense Bonus, Defender), WHM (Stoneskin, Blink, Regen, Cure), or NIN (Utsusemi) sub, and even then not for very long.

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

BLM soloing wouldn't even be that risky if you took the kind of damage a WAR or PLD does when caught with shadows/buffs down.

Gonna have to disagree there because generally, if you're taking hits you're either doing something wrong or it's already too late.

No one's saying def is useless, that's just silly. But it's not terribly helpful either and it's about all WAR has to defend itself which is the problem. This is why I've been saying for some time now SE should overhaul the DEF/VIT system along with armor classes.

Jobs like WAR and PLD that can wear full plate should take the kind of hits to match. There ought to be damage reductions based on what kind of armor you have on.

The only real problem with this balance wise is that it may lead to WAR just going all out on the offensive and not giving two shits about their defense since they are already wearing full plate and thus, can laugh at the enemy's pathetic attempts to hurt it (as they would IRL >_> seriously real plate mail was something to fear)

It's all pretty tricky, but I would like to see the heavy DD's be able to take much less damage then we currently do because of our armor types (also while I'm add it DRG needs to be added to the list since it's the only Knight that can't wear plate, and it could in ever other FF)

Speaking of which, a friend and I were arguing over whether or not Haubergeon is chain or plate. I say it's plate (look at the shoulders for crying out loud) and as such NIN should seriously be removed from it in favor of DRG. Not because I like DRG better over NIN, but because it just doesn't make a lick of sense for Ninja to wear such heavy armor.