TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

[Aksannyi]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Even at 55 my Rampages made me sad as hell, without a ton of accuracy gear (which you really just don't have, Hauby is 59 anyway) you're gonna miss a ton on it since it's multihit, and stupid birds don't allow you to eat food so you're extra screwed. I'd do like, 60 dmg on Rampage and it just makes you want to cry, I'd get the odd 700 WS but mostly between like 150 and 300 and, bleh.

Better off going Gaxe all the way, wish I'd done it sooner. Which reminds me, I need to go skilling up again tomorrow.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

/NIN has more reliable/consistent survivability than /SAM, and /THF has none. Either way, opting to dual wield just because you have it isn't a very legitimate reason. It's kind of like a PLD/RDM nuking with Banish II so that Magic Attack Bonus doesn't go to waste. You should dual wield if you know you can do more damage than using a Great Axe that way, not to put a sub job trait to use. Which one is going to be better depends on the weapons that are available to you, how your merits are distributed (weapon skills as well as group 1; DA merits are partially wasted on multi-hit weapons,) what mob you're fighting (against hard things, you might not be able to eat meat while dual wielding) and your gear (there's a big difference between DWII and DWII+Suppa).

It's this kind of thinking that makes me go War/Nin to Promies and use a Gaxe. Besides axes themself sucking something hard pre 42, and Axe WS being all sorts of meh pre 55, Gaxe has just been a more reliable and flexible weapon to me. But unfortunately, with the wet paper bag that is War's natural defense, Utsu is the only thing that I can rely on to not make me drops tons of HP with every hit. I liked War at first because it was supposed to be a flexible job that could DD or tank effectively, but when it comes to tanking, War is nothing more then "on par" with other DD jobs and requires special subs to even have any shred of survivability.

Also, I hate prons with great covers but crap content.

Even at 55 my Rampages made me sad as hell, without a ton of accuracy gear (which you really just don't have, Hauby is 59 anyway) you're gonna miss a ton on it since it's multihit, and stupid birds don't allow you to eat food so you're extra screwed. I'd do like, 60 dmg on Rampage and it just makes you want to cry, I'd get the odd 700 WS but mostly between like 150 and 300 and, bleh.

Better off going Gaxe all the way, wish I'd done it sooner. Which reminds me, I need to go skilling up again tomorrow.

I always found Axes to only be useful when the mobs were VT at the highest, especially Rampage. Though the addition of the J Peti was certainly helpful at 55 against birds, you still need a ton of Acc to hit reliably.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Even at 55 my Rampages made me sad as hell, without a ton of accuracy gear (which you really just don't have, Hauby is 59 anyway) you're gonna miss a ton on it since it's multihit, and stupid birds don't allow you to eat food so you're extra screwed. I'd do like, 60 dmg on Rampage and it just makes you want to cry, I'd get the odd 700 WS but mostly between like 150 and 300 and, bleh.

Colibri are kinda dodgy because while your Rampages will suck, you probably won't be able to stick Shield Breaks on them either. It's a bit of a toss-up but if I had to guess, Great Axe would probably be somewhat better not because of the WS but because of the 3:4 DEX:Acc ratio.

But unfortunately, with the wet paper bag that is War's natural defense, Utsu is the only thing that I can rely on to not make me drops tons of HP with every hit. I liked War at first because it was supposed to be a flexible job that could DD or tank effectively, but when it comes to tanking, War is nothing more then "on par" with other DD jobs and requires special subs to even have any shred of survivability.

I disagree with both statements (WAR being nothing but on par with other jobs and having weak defense.) 15-30 WAR already has Berserk and at 25, Double Attack. WAR develops into a powerhouse DD much quicker than other jobs, and already comes with 1 of the 2 most useful and sought-after DD abilities in the 10-49 range: Berserk (the other being Sneak Attack.) Other jobs can't sub /NIN without sacrificing having one of those two abilities, whereas WAR can go /NIN and still keep its Berserk. And if you were to add how much damage Shield Break contributes to the whole party, WAR would blow every DD out of the water in the low-mid levels.

As for the Defense, WAR is right up there. With the same armor access as PLDs and at least Defense Bonus I, the only non-tank job that can compete with that is BLU. Plus, like I said, they're just about the only job that can really afford to go /NIN without losing a lot of damage potential; the only job non-tank job that has similar levels of damage mitigation and can still get Berserk is a post-Seigan SAM. About two years ago I won all three Promies with a WAR/NIN x2 dual tank setup. We had a third WAR on one of them, I think Mea.

Plus, until 50, WAR is the only job that can afford to have Berserk up when he pulls hate. If another job pulls major hate he can A) cancel Berserk or B) take a lot of damage. WAR can equalize it with Defender, and once the tank has hate back, cancel Defender and keep on kicking ass. And if it's something critical like a mission run then the WAR has the option of canceling Berserk and popping Defender in a pinch. Again, only BLUs can really compete with that.

Later on other jobs start getting all their goodies, but early on there's very little that can compete directly with a WAR that's using all his tools. That's why it disturbs me greatly when people still manage to suck.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I disagree with both statements (WAR being nothing but on par with other jobs and having weak defense.) 15-30 WAR already has Berserk and at 25, Double Attack. WAR develops into a powerhouse DD much quicker than other jobs, and already comes with 1 of the 2 most useful and sought-after DD abilities in the 10-49 range: Berserk (the other being Sneak Attack.) Other jobs can't sub /NIN without sacrificing having one of those two abilities, whereas WAR can go /NIN and still keep its Berserk. And if you were to add how much damage Shield Break contributes to the whole party, WAR would blow every DD out of the water in the low-mid levels.

Just to be clear, I only meant on par defensively.

As for the Defense, WAR is right up there. With the same armor access as PLDs and at least Defense Bonus I, the only non-tank job that can compete with that is BLU. Plus, like I said, they're just about the only job that can really afford to go /NIN without losing a lot of damage potential; the only job non-tank job that has similar levels of damage mitigation and can still get Berserk is a post-Seigan SAM. About two years ago I won all three Promies with a WAR/NIN x2 dual tank setup. We had a third WAR on one of them, I think Mea.

But in the long run, especially at high levels, Def means little to nothing. Other melee jobs get better defensive tools, and while they might not be stuff that would turn them into a tank, they're much more useful at mitigating Dmg then straight Def is. Drks can use Dread-spikes, Drain I/II and stun to restore HP and stop a mob's attacks, Sam, as you stated, gets Seigan, which is near Utsu like protection, Mnks can Counter and Chakra HP back, which while not astounding, still saves more HP then straight Def. And on top of that, Mnk/Sam/Nin get easy access to some potent Dmg reduction gear that pretty much negates any advantages from heavy armor. Even Thf and it's super evasion gives it better defensive capabilities then War on many mobs. And while Drg may rely on a subjob to use it, Healing Breath is a powerful defensive tool that only a Drg can use.

Hell even Pld, the Brickwall of this game, needed much more then pure Defense to be a powerful tank. But for War, a job that's supposed to be the most versitile of all melees, it has almost nothing to help mitigate damage and keep it alive. War's best tanking abilities come in the form of subbed abilities, things every other melee can use in addition to their own defensive skills. And it's something that has always bugged me.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

But in the long run, especially at high levels, Def means little to nothing. Other melee jobs get better defensive tools, and while they might not be stuff that would turn them into a tank, they're much more useful at mitigating Dmg then straight Def is. Drks can use Dread-spikes, Drain I/II and stun to restore HP and stop a mob's attacks, Sam, as you stated, gets Seigan, which is near Utsu like protection, Mnks can Counter and Chakra HP back, which while not astounding, still saves more HP then straight Def. And on top of that, Mnk/Sam/Nin get easy access to some potent Dmg reduction gear that pretty much negates any advantages from heavy armor. Even Thf and it's super evasion gives it better defensive capabilities then War on many mobs. And while Drg may rely on a subjob to use it, Healing Breath is a powerful defensive tool that only a Drg can use.

Hell even Pld, the Brickwall of this game, needed much more then pure Defense to be a powerful tank. But for War, a job that's supposed to be the most versitile of all melees has all of nothing to help mitigate damage and keep it alive. War's best tanking abilities come in the form of subbed abilities, things every other melee can use in addition to their own defensive skills. And it's something that has always bugged me.

They all get something, but only a handful are worth talking about. Dread Spikes is on a 3 minute recast, costs 78 MP, and won't save you from Death Scissors or magic. Counter is limited by your accuracy so it can have, at best, a 9.5% activation rate if your hit rate is capped. Counterstance will rape your Defense, and again, Counter won't guard against TP moves or magic. Chakra is on a 5 minute timer. THF is supposed to have great survivability. Healing Breath is hax but it's seldom used in parties.

Arguing that WAR's survivability comes from subs makes about as much sense as complaining about PLD's pseudo-dependency on Provoke. It's the whole package that counts and when it comes down to it, WAR loses very little subbing /NIN and that's what makes it so versatile. A MNK, DRK or DRG subbing /NIN is missing out on Berserk and Double Attack, or Hasso and Store TP, or SATA.

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

4:3 DEX:Acc ratio.

ftfy

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

The point was that when those jobs aim for a more defensive/survivalist build, they can combine their natural defensive traits with their subs to create strong defensive set ups. But war's only defensive tool is barely useful at all so it's only form of survival is all based on it's subjob. Drk can combine it's natural defensive skills with Nin or even Sam, and even wear some heavy armor, to end up with an equal or better survival set up then War. While Dreadspikes won't save you from Death Scissors or Magic, niether will Defender. And while counter may only have a natural 9% proc rate, on lower mobs (T-VTish), combined with a proper Counter build and /nin, will end up saving that Mnk a lot more HP then a War who takes it on the chin between recasts. And I've had parties (not exp mind you, but I'm not a big fan of exping) and done missions with friends who go Drg/Mage and end up not only keeping themself alive, but keeping the Pt alive because of the Wyvern. And while thf is "supposed" to have great survivability, War is supposed to be able to be used as a strong defensive job as well as being a great DD. But it's not, the only defensive tool it has is Defender...which just isn't enough.

[Lmnop]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

A DRG still has perma-Aggressor and a jump every minute which often equates to being more powerful that double attack (10% double attack rate when you only swing 7 times/minute would mean .7 extra swings a minute vs the solid +1 offered by Jump+High Jump). The +50ish attack of a DRK is effectively a permanent half-powered Berserk. While I agree with you, Armando, I don't think it's such a night-and-day difference as you make it out to be. a DRG is awesome /nin. a DRG/sam is just awesomer. Pretty much proportionately, I gain a lot from subbing sam to WAR over nin.

Also, Super Jump once every 3 minutes (which not only prevents and sheds aggro - it can be used to dodge dangerous AoE!) and the fact that a small portion of their damage is hate-free (wyvern) puts DRG at higher defensive capabilities in a party setting than WAR. Monk is kinda SOL, though. Their defensive tricks aren't that impressive, and they have a lot to lose by subbing NIN. Buuuut that's what they have to do in order to live.

When it boils down to it, we all know Ziero's right: it took more than super defense - heck, it took more than super defense plus self-curing - to make PLD the tank that could keep up with a NIN.

----

This is all terribly off topic! Good thread, Armando!

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

The point was that when those jobs aim for a more defensive/survivalist build, they can combine their natural defensive traits with their subs to create strong defensive set ups. But war's only defensive tool is barely useful at all so it's only form of survival is all based on it's subjob. Drk can combine it's natural defensive skills with Nin or even Sam, and even wear some heavy armor, to end up with an equal or better survival set up then War. While Dreadspikes won't save you from Death Scissors or Magic, niether will Defender. And while counter may only have a natural 9% proc rate, on lower mobs (T-VTish), combined with a proper Counter build and /nin, will end up saving that Mnk a lot more HP then a War who takes it on the chin between recasts. And I've had parties (not exp mind you, but I'm not a big fan of exping) and done missions with friends who go Drg/Mage and end up not only keeping themself alive, but keeping the Pt alive because of the Wyvern. And while thf is "supposed" to have great survivability, War is supposed to be able to be used as a strong defensive job as well as being a great DD. But it's not, the only defensive tool it has is Defender...which just isn't enough.

Not enough for what? For the job to main tank? You're mixing two different things now. Defender is more than adequate for a damage reduction tool or simply as a Berserk canceller. Pin hate on a DRK or DRG for an extended period of time and see what happens. Once Dread Spike's over or if Super Jump isn't available any more, they're fucked. No matter how you slice it the WAR's going to fare better in the long run with its natural abilities. And this is completely ignoring that if you were in a situation where the WAR needs to mitigate damage, WARs do get Size 3 shields and a respectable C skill. They also have the second highest HP in the game if I remember right.

Either way I still don't see what's flawed about depending on your sub. A PLD can't tank subless despite being the game's clear-cut tank job. Same thing with a NIN. DRG's Wyvern is completely dependent on subs. If the job is good defensively with a specific sub, it's completely irrelevant whether the job would suck subless, because other than fighting Maat and doing Salvage, those situations don't exist.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

A defender using War will go down just as fast as a Dreadspikes/drain/stunning Drk will, because in the long run Defense does very little. And when combined with other subs, Drk has better tools to survive and augment the strength of said sub based tools, Drg as well. Drk/nin can heal HP and has a better chance to recast shadows using Drain/Stun, each on the same time as Utsu spells, then a War/nin who has no way to heal itself (outside of bolts) or halt a mobs attack. Drgs constantly and consistantly solo Exp chains on T mobs due to Healing breath, something War can't do even with /Dnc sub.

And if Pld's need /War then why is Pld/Nin so popular nowadays? Between the numerous boosted enmity of their JAs, combined with increased Dmg reduction, haste modified Flash and Cure timers, a far superior shield skill with numerous traits and the Pld specific spell, voke is more of an emergencey tool then a needed one at higher levels. Especially seeing as how the hate from Voke is said to completely erode before the timer even counts down.

And again, they had to substantially boost Plds shield skills, as well as modifying the very way it works, in order to balance it as a damage mitigating tool. So even if War does have a "respectible" C ranking in shield, it just won't be that useful.

And I'm not talking about full time main tanking against ITs, though Sam already beats war at that to be honest. I'm talking about built in job abilities native to the class to give it some sort of defensive prowess to at least rival Sam of all jobs. But all War can do is directly boost their defense, and as we saw back before the days of the Pld boosts, and as frequently stated on almost any high level discussion forum about this game, stacking defense is near useless.

And War has less HP then Pld, Sam and Mnk, possibly even Drk.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

A defender using War will go down just as fast as a Dreadspikes/drain/stunning Drk will, because in the long run Defense does very little.

And this is where your argument falls apart. If Defender did "very little" then PLD Sushi vs Def food debates wouldn't exist. Defender isn't a shitty ability because it doesn't do enough, it's shitty because it kills your damage. If your sole concern is staying alive then Defender will help a WAR as much as it will a PLD. And, again, a DRK can't sustain that effort. Dread Spikes is only available every 3 minutes, costs 78 MP. Stun's base recast is 45 secs, he can only use that on every other Ichi recast and every time he does there goes another 25 MP. Drain is also on a tight 60 sec recast, and without the aid of Dark Staff and a powerful +Dark skill build, the numbers the DRK is going to heal back aren't going to be spectacular. There goes another 21 MP every time he does so either way. Drain II is also on a 3 minute recast and costs 37 MP. That's a shitload of MP just to pretend to tank.

And if Pld's need /War then why is Pld/Nin so popular nowadays? Between the numerous boosted enmity of their JAs, combined with increased Dmg reduction, haste modified Flash and Cure timers, a far superior shield skill with numerous traits and the Pld specific spell, voke is more of an emergencey tool then a needed one at higher levels. Especially seeing as how the hate from Voke is said to completely erode before the timer even counts down.

People use /NIN for A) DD'ing while not taking damage or B) tanking things that'll hit you so fucking hard, you'll be bleeding a shitload of hate. WAR/NIN does A just as well and none of the jobs you're quoting are going to live very long in situation B without Utsusemi. I don't see people using PLD/NIN before Utsusemi: Ni.

And again, they had to substantially boost Plds shield skills, as well as modifying the very way it works, in order to balance it as a damage mitigating tool. So even if War does have a "respectible" C ranking in shield, it just won't be that useful.

Given that nobody's tried and measured it, I fail to see how you could possibly know that. Shield Skill is still a black box and for all we know more Shield skill is useless against EXP mobs.

And I'm not talking about full time main tanking against ITs, though Sam already beats war at that to be honest. I'm talking about built in job abilities native to the class to give it some sort of defensive prowess to at least rival Sam of all jobs. But all War can do is directly boost their defense, and as we saw back before the days of the Pld boosts, and as frequently stated on almost any high level discussion forum about this game, stacking defense is near useless.

Again, this fallacy. If you don't have any defense buff, then a 25% Def boost will undeniably drop your damage taken. Stacking Defense is useless when you start piling up Cocoon and Defense food and expect a proportional drop in damage. Stacking Defense is impractical (emphasis on that word) when, even after dropping its damage, the mob is still going to hit you for absurd amounts of damage (see HNMs, but not EXP mobs). Stacking Defense is impractical when something else will help you kill the mob so much faster, that you avoid the same amount of damage (Sushi vs Def food, Shield Break vs Weapon Break, Dia vs Bio.) There's a big difference between Def not doing anything and there being more effective options.

And War has less HP then Pld, Sam and Mnk, possibly even Drk.

Dead wrong buddy. MNK has A-ranked HP (and HP Bonus traits), WAR and SAM are the only ones with B rank, PLD and DRK have C's.

And I would like to remind you that PLD was buffed not because it was inadequate in itself, but because NIN was even better.

[Mystiqsoulchild]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I am thinking of becoming a WAR so thank you for the kick ass thread!!

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Their defensive tricks aren't that impressive, and they have a lot to lose by subbing NIN.

Or SE could get off their fucking asses and fix Guard already like they did shield. I guarantee you'd see a lot more MNK using /WAR in merits if they could reliably guard attacks while using counterstance with merits and Relic boots. MNK already has everything it needs (Guard, Counter, B+ evasion) except for a fix to make guarding happen more often. As it stands it's much like the old shield skill, rarely kicking in but usually taking off massive chunks of damage from attacks (I've guarded Peckling Fury before and took almost nothing)

[Celeal]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

To be fair, Defender for WAR or DD/WAR is hard to adapt to nowadays exp. parties in ToAU camps. In a sense WAR's native defensive tools isn't really used by WAR or other DD.

If we compare WAR/NIN with other DD jobs that /NIN for the same reason as WAR/NIN, like MNK/NIN, DRK/NIN, RNG/NIN, BLU/NIN, SAM/NIN, etc, WAR/NIN has the worst defensive supplement with /NIN. Heck.. even a DRG/NIN technically has Healing Breath.

Actually, I think it is a good trade off for game balance. WAR main job itself is very strong offensive wise.

[Ziero]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

And this is where your argument falls apart. If Defender did "very little" then PLD Sushi vs Def food debates wouldn't exist. Defender isn't a shitty ability because it doesn't do enough, it's shitty because it kills your damage. If your sole concern is staying alive then Defender will help a WAR as much as it will a PLD. And, again, a DRK can't sustain that effort. Dread Spikes is only available every 3 minutes, costs 78 MP. Stun's base recast is 45 secs, he can only use that on every other Ichi recast and every time he does there goes another 25 MP. Drain is also on a tight 60 sec recast, and without the aid of Dark Staff and a powerful +Dark skill build, the numbers the DRK is going to heal back aren't going to be spectacular. There goes another 21 MP every time he does so either way. Drain II is also on a 3 minute recast and costs 37 MP. That's a shitload of MP just to pretend to tank.

To be perfectly blunt, I didn't even know that there were that many Sushi vs Def food debates for Pld, is that just in lower lvls? I do know that Plds usually prefer to stack haste, especially when subbing nin, over Def gear. And they still manage to hold hate exceedingly well. Everything I hear says that stacking too much def, which a Pld can easily do, will have much less returns so if a Pld can reach that point with /nin then losing Defender doesn't exactly hurt them.

And even though a Drk/Nin can't full time tank, they can survive better then a War/Nin because, again, a Drk can restore it's own HP and stop devastating attacks/halt a mob's normal hits to help recast Utsu. With increased haste gear, all of their "defensive" skills become more useful. But War can't do anything but take it on the chin if shadows fall.

People use /NIN for A) DD'ing while not taking damage or B) tanking things that'll hit you so fucking hard, you'll be bleeding a shitload of hate. WAR/NIN does A just as well and none of the jobs you're quoting are going to live very long in situation B without Utsusemi. I don't see people using PLD/NIN before Utsusemi: Ni.

Seriously, every DD job does A just fine. War is a great DD and all, but so is every other melee DD. War loses just as much subbing nin for defense as any other job. And a War will go down just as fast, if not faster, in B then every other job too. Because while other jobs have ways to prevent, avoid, reduce and heal dmg dealt, War only increases it's Def which is not at all useful against big things, as pointed out by yourself. The point is that other classes have better ways to prevent damage that can be augmented through the use of specific subs, and Warrior, the class that's supposed to be the class that exceed in either offensive or defensive situations has the worst natural defensive abilities.

Given that nobody's tried and measured it, I fail to see how you could possibly know that. Shield Skill is still a black box and for all we know more Shield skill is useless against EXP mobs.

SE specifically said they increased the shield Block rate and then gave Plds a spell that increases that rate even more. On top of the TP returns and spell interrupt down gained from Shield Mastery. That's a pretty clear increase in "skill" (though I will admit, the word I used was fairly misleading) when it comes to using a shield.

Dead wrong buddy. MNK has A-ranked HP (and HP Bonus traits), WAR and SAM are the only ones with B rank, PLD and DRK have C's.

Coulda sworn Sam had more...but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

And I would like to remind you that PLD was buffed not because it was inadequate in itself, but because NIN was even better.

Pld was seen as useless compared to nin for just about everything because the only thing a Pld could do defensively was increase it's Def. They had to change that because just increasing Def wasn't enough of a defensive tool to be useful. Which is the whole point in that a War using defender will still take more dmg then other jobs using their defensive skills from main + sub. Which is why I'm bothered by it, because War is supposed to be the melee who can be offensive or defensive, yet it's best defense is worse then jobs who are meant to be pure offense. Sam, Drg and Mnk blow War's defensive skills away and Drk, a job who's supposed to be nothing but offense, can actually survive longer when combining it's natural abilities with defensive skills from subs.

To be fair, Defender for WAR or DD/WAR is hard to adapt to nowadays exp. parties in ToAU camps. In a sense WAR's native defensive tools isn't really used by WAR or other DD.

If we compare WAR/NIN with other DD jobs that /NIN for the same reason as WAR/NIN, like MNK/NIN, DRK/NIN, RNG/NIN, BLU/NIN, SAM/NIN, etc, WAR/NIN has the worst defensive supplement with /NIN. Heck.. even a DRG/NIN technically has Healing Breath.

Actually, I think it is a good trade off for game balance. WAR main job itself is very strong offensive wise.

But that's the thing, all those other jobs can melee DD just as well as War regardless of Sub, and they all (except for Rng) get better ways to suppliment their survival when combined with a proper sub. War should be able to exceed these classes in terms of defensive abilities, not be on par...or worse...then them.