TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

[Malacite]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I thought we were talking about early game WAR? (1~37) in which case I found WAR/RNG to be best. Nice fat +10 accuracy and ranged accuracy to go alongside an A+ rated weapon and shield break = absolutely zero accuracy issues which makes tanking that much easier.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

IMHO, at the right timing, WAR/THF with SA + Sturmwind once or twice in every exp. chain in between exp. chain was useful to secure chain #5... at least that was common before ToAU was introduced.

DD/THF in general tend to take on a lot more damage without contributing that much more in output, in my experience. WAR/NIN can WS earlier and more often without taking as much damage compared to WAR/THF.

For example, in a Lv.33+ party I had recently, the DDs' damage output/taken looked like:

SAM/DRG: 21208/3058
DRK/THF: 16102/4664
WAR/NIN*: 14563/1414
(*skewed data, since also co-tank)

The verdict is even clearer if you look at the out/in ratio instead of raw numbers;
SAM/DRG: 6.94:1 ratio
DRK/THF: 3.45:1 ratio
WAR/NIN*: 10.30:1 ratio

You can see how incredibly efficent the WAR/NIN is in terms of damage-out to damge-in, especially consdiering that he was co-tanking with a NIN (not listed). The SAM/DRG (which was me) probably should have used /NIN instead if it was a normal pick-up party.

* * *

I suppose it can be argued that a WAR/THF will have slightly better accuracy and taking hits will lead to better TP gain compared to taking time to cast Ususemi: Ichi. However, taking hits like that is more likely to incurr down time for MP recharge and break chain, than SA+Sturmwind is likely to help reach chain #5, in my opinion.

For this guide, I think it may not be a bad idea to steer people away from WAR/THF.

[hexx]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

DD/THF in general tend to take on a lot more damage without contributing that much more in output, in my experience. WAR/NIN can WS earlier and more often without taking as much damage compared to WAR/THF.

For example, in a Lv.33+ party I had recently, the DDs' damage output/taken looked like:

SAM/DRG: 21208/3058
DRK/THF: 16102/4664
WAR/NIN*: 14563/1414
(*skewed data, since also co-tank)

The verdict is even clearer if you look at the out/in ratio instead of raw numbers;
SAM/DRG: 6.94:1 ratio
DRK/THF: 3.45:1 ratio
WAR/NIN*: 10.30:1 ratio

You can see how incredibly efficent the WAR/NIN is in terms of damage-out to damge-in, especially consdiering that he was co-tanking with a NIN (not listed). The SAM/DRG (which was me) probably should have use /NIN instead if it was a normal pick-up party.

* * *

I suppose it can be argued that a WAR/THF will have slightly better accuracy and taking hits will lead to better TP gain compared to taking time to cast Ususemi: Ichi. However, taking hits like that is more likely to incurr down time for MP recharge and break chain, than SA+Sturmwind is likely to help reach chain #5, in my opinion.

For this guide, I think it may not be a bad idea to steer people away from WAR/THF.

What is it with your obsession with subbing NIN? Seriously? I leveled WAR on my second character as WAR/THF (no NIN sub available) and tossing in SA Sturmwind here and there provided MUCH more damage than the crappy WAR/NIN's I had to deal with. The only advantage you get from /NIN is somewhat better damage mitigation, but even then, you only get ichi so yeah, not gonna save too many hits if you're stupid (as most war/nin's are). A WAR/THF (or /MNK) who knows how to pace themselves can easily out do a WAR/NIN without worrying about pulling hate. Quit giving out bad advice.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

What is it with your obsession with subbing NIN?

I said it outright: efficiency.

Damage out, vs. damage in.

The "only get ichi" WAR in that party blinked away 85.84% of attacks directed at him. So, that's the kind efficiency which Ichi alone can bring. I can assure you he wasn't stupid.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

What is it with your obsession with subbing NIN? Seriously? I leveled WAR on my second character as WAR/THF (no NIN sub available) and tossing in SA Sturmwind here and there provided MUCH more damage than the crappy WAR/NIN's I had to deal with. The only advantage you get from /NIN is somewhat better damage mitigation, but even then, you only get ichi so yeah, not gonna save too many hits if you're stupid (as most war/nin's are). A WAR/THF (or /MNK) who knows how to pace themselves can easily out do a WAR/NIN without worrying about pulling hate. Quit giving out bad advice.

There's no such thing as a crappy WAR/NIN, only crappy or misinformed players. The WAR job is built in such a way that it can never fail at doing damage. The thing about WAR is that it already has what everyone wants - Berserk and Double Attack - well before many DD jobs even start developing.

SA Sturmwind is enmity overkill. It's only a good idea if you can kill the mob with it - but now you're placing restrictions on its usage. SA Breaks are generally a better idea since it does good damage without causing nearly as many hate issues, and you're also guaranteeing your break won't miss.

Anyways Utsusemi: Ichi is a useful spell no matter how you slice it, and WAR is able to exploit it to its fullest. Taking hate? Good, you're making use of it already. Not taking hate? Do more damage or Provoke the mob. Every time the mob hits your shadows it's not hitting the tank, and that's MP saved for the healers.

[hexx]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

There's no such thing as a crappy WAR/NIN, only crappy or misinformed players. The WAR job is built in such a way that it can never fail at doing damage. The thing about WAR is that it already has what everyone wants - Berserk and Double Attack - well before many DD jobs even start developing.

SA Sturmwind is enmity overkill. It's only a good idea if you can kill the mob with it - but now you're placing restrictions on its usage. SA Breaks are generally a better idea since it does good damage without causing nearly as many hate issues, and you're also guaranteeing your break won't miss.

Anyways Utsusemi: Ichi is a useful spell no matter how you slice it, and WAR is able to exploit it to its fullest. Taking hate? Good, you're making use of it already. Not taking hate? Do more damage or Provoke the mob. Every time the mob hits your shadows it's not hitting the tank, and that's MP saved for the healers.

Not saying ALL WAR/NIN's are crappy, but I've dealth with plenty to realize that /NIN aint all what people want it to be. Sure, /NIN has its moments where its nearly indispensible (some merit pts, nyzul, assault, dynamis, etc) but all in all, at the lowbie levels, there are other subjobs out there that tend to shine more than /NIN.

Yes SA Sturmwind generates shit tons of hate, but again, if planned accordingly, you will more than likely kill the mob once its used. Its all about pacing yourself and not going psycho the minute the mob is pulled. You do have a point in using Breaks with SA though.

Main thing I'm trying to point out here /NIN is great, but you cant ALWAYS depend on it, or bash other subs either because it really brings nothing else to the table save shadows and dual wield.

I said it outright: efficiency.

Damage out, vs. damage in.

The "only get ichi" WAR in that party blinked away 85.84% of attacks directed at him. So, that's the kind efficiency which Ichi alone can bring. I can assure you he wasn't stupid.

Whats all this about "efficiency"? Since when did xp parties stop being about FUN and start being more about "max xp/hour". A party can be fun AND get the job done without every job going /NIN, if and when people learn to control themselves.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Main thing I'm trying to point out here /NIN is great, but you cant ALWAYS depend on it, or bash other subs either because it really brings nothing else to the table save shadows and dual wield.

He didn't bash other SJ (and you didn't actually point out /NIN was great, as far as I can tell--you've only complained /NIN players were lousy); Armando just emphasised (rightly) that Utsusemi is really, really useful for WAR. It allows a player to do more damage without adding to healers' load. It can be used to co-tank without taking more damage. Both are good things.

Whats all this about "efficiency"? Since when did xp parties stop being about FUN and start being more about "max xp/hour". A party can be fun AND get the job done without every job going /NIN, if and when people learn to control themselves.

People generally are happy when the exp/hour is good, and became happier when the exp/hour becomes better.

Plus, did you read the part about I was the SAM/DRG in that party? I've never advocated /NIN for everything--I advocated that DD's should strongly consider /NIN when joining unknown to pick-up groups, and that PLD should use /NIN in merit parties (if a PLD actually gets an invite) and such. So far, only for Warrior do I say /NIN should be the default in all exp groups once Ususemi: Ichi is available--at least, the default until Seigan from /SAM.

* * *

If you're not one of those people who are happier with better exp/hour, don't get the Anniversary Ring--you'll be annoyed at its 'efficiency' at getting you exp.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

Main thing I'm trying to point out here /NIN is great, but you cant ALWAYS depend on it, or bash other subs either because it really brings nothing else to the table save shadows and dual wield.

Until 55 all it offers a WAR is Utsusemi. Only a horribly misinformed player would Dual Wield before then. But that's precisely the point; while Ichi is all the sub provides, Ichi is all the sub needs.

Whats all this about "efficiency"? Since when did xp parties stop being about FUN and start being more about "max xp/hour". A party can be fun AND get the job done without every job going /NIN, if and when people learn to control themselves.

More often than not, what the other 5 people want is efficiency. Being efficient can be fun too, anyways. /NIN and fun aren't mutually exclusive.

The main point is that WAR loses very little and gains a lot by going /NIN. Being able to do more damage while taking less damage is better than being able to do even more damage while taking more damage, and it's also better than holding back like you would using Sturmwind on /THF.

/THF is best used at 60+ if you ask me. TA's benefits are two-fold: if you do a 500 damage WS with TA up, that's 500 damage not on your name, and 500 damage the mob thinks the tank did. The tank'll be up 500 damage worth of hate relative to everyone else in the party, and 1000 damage relative to you. Everyone wins. Notice that the reason it's good is the same reason Utsusemi is good: do more damage while taking less damage.

P.S. WAR/NIN x2 is the best EXP tank at almost any level past 24. If there's any good that comes out of /NIN being the standard on /WAR, it's that. You get the man power of 4 people - 2 fully capable DDs, a virtual tank (both WAR/NINs combined will hold hate with their damage alone and avoid as much damage as 1 NIN) and 1 buffing job (two people capable of Breaks is crazy delicious, regardless of whether you're using two breaks or simply having the WARs alternate between Break and Sturmwind.) It certainly doesn't hurt that one of them can also serve as the puller, too.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

P.S. WAR/NIN x2 is the best EXP tank at almost any level. If there's any good that comes out of /NIN being the standard on /WAR, it's that. You get the man power of 3 - the damage of two DDs with the damage mitigation and hate stability of a real tank.

I like the WAR/NIN x n tanking set up, but it still a trade off--the setup won't quite equal to a single (strong) PLD tank in terms of stability before maybe 60's or even 70's, especially in the Lv.41-60 range with Flash and Refresh. Even as low as Yhoator jungle, my PLD did better tanking than WAR/NIN x2 (an LS mate and I).

Only time I've seen PLD level kind of tanking performance with WAR/NIN x2 tanks at the lower levels is with a WAR/NIN x2, THF x2 set up in Altepa desert. The WARs were able to balance well since both have SATA, so able to ride Ichi relatively well while enjoying the enmity gifts from the THFs.

Not to mention WAR/NIN x2 tanking takes coordination to do well. I probably still prefer PLD, or NIN/WAR + WAR/NIN + THF once the NIN has Ni.

Oh, WAR/NIN is the best first Provoke for SATA, hands down. (Duh. But, worth pointing out.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

If you're not one of those people who are happier with better exp/hour, don't get the Anniversary Ring--you'll be annoyed at its 'efficiency' at getting you exp.

Actually, it is annoying me a bit: this dang Dedication is just lurking there in my buffs, just waiting to wear off due to time . . . I'm almost Paladin 37, for Pete's sake! (Ooh, forgot to put that in the Accomplishment thread, guess I'll have to get there.)

[Celeal]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

WAR/NIN is useful, and has been shown repeatedly in exp. parties over and over again. Without a doubt, WAR/NIN works.

......

In order for WAR/THF (level 30~40) to work, the party as a whole needs to dump heavy damages (spike damage or nukes) at the mob right after SA + Sturmwind.

When executed properly, WAR/THF at level 30-ish range does not take much damage:

In order for the mob to deal damage on players, it needs "time" for executing the attacks.

The whole point of WAR/THF is not giving that "time" to the mob. A dead mob won't fight back.

(1) The exp. mob HP is consistent. (even if the mob can drain HP or cure itself, it does not matter as long as the party is "quick")
(2) SA + Sturmwind damage is consistent.
(3) Sneak Attack /recast is constant.
(4) The hate generate by SA + Sturmwind is consistent.

The tactic is just plan SA + Sturmwind when the mob's HP is at a certain percentage. It is okay even if the SA + Sturmwind cannot kill the mob at once, the rest of the party just need to bring down the mob as soon as possible. Since the WAR/THF can secure the hate easily after SA + Sturmwind, the rest of the party can go all out attack without worry about bouncing hate.

Once again it only works at level 30~40 range, when WAR/THF can still take some beating from exp. mobs for a short time.

[hexx]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

If you're not one of those people who are happier with better exp/hour, don't get the Anniversary Ring--you'll be annoyed at its 'efficiency' at getting you exp.

See, unlike people of your ilk, I'm in NO hurry to reach 75. Whats the point of getting there if you have yet to go back and skill up? I make it a point to make sure all relevant skills are capped before syncing or using an exp band. So an Anni Ring is by no means "efficient" if you're 75 and have the skills of a lvl 60ish.

I never argued that /NIN doesnt make a great tank or any of that. But saying its the BEST sub out there for low levels also doesnt help out lowbies.

[Armando]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

I never argued that /NIN doesnt make a great tank or any of that. But saying its the BEST sub out there for low levels also doesnt help out lowbies.

It's by far the safest choice. Other subs aren't as flexible and require that the tank be good to be used to their full potential - but even if you do, there's no guarantee you're doing the party a bigger favor than lending them your shadows to reduce downtime.

Lowbies are gonna need to level NIN at some point or another anyways. Better have them start working towards Norg fame sooner than later.

[Taskmage]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

So an Anni Ring is by no means "efficient" if you're 75 and have the skills of a lvl 60ish.

It's a lot more efficient to skill up with tools like waltz II and ni. But I don't even see why you're making an issue of it. Even if you used all 10 charges of an anni ring in the same party at level 60, you'd just end the party at level 63 instead of 62. You'd be a whole 5 more points under your skill cap vs if you didn't use the ring, not to mention you just freed up 3+ hours of time you would've had to spend exping that you can use for skillup or whatever you want. Whether your goal is levels or skill points you get there faster if you use the ring.

Refusing to use an exp band unless your numbers are blue isn't more efficient, it's just anal.



"ilk" :p

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: TO ALL NEW WARs: How to be awesome

In order for WAR/THF (level 30~40) to work, the party as a whole needs to dump heavy damages (spike damage or nukes) at the mob right after SA + Sturmwind.

Ah, I see what you mean now; if done that way the DD/THF won't take too much damage.

It seems a little inflexible, though; if, say, a SAM has Meditate up, instead of WS twice or three times in one fight, he may have to hold TP much longer for fewer WS's, or even just not use Meditate. If BLM run low on MP, does that mean the WAR will have to hold TP and/or SA longer, too, since he has to wait until lower monster HP before letting loose?

I know, I know; not every party should be WS spam. Still, as someone who leveled much of PLD and a good portion of BLM in a SC+MB static parties (pre-level sync, pre- two-hander buff), I remember it was quite frequent that TP, MP, and pulling would get out of synch and we end up at the end of the fight with one or more people with 200+ TP, or no MB was done, or the puller hadn't had time to disengage and run off before the monster died. If that happens a lot in a static, the average pick-up group would do only worse in keeping TP in synch and nucking MB ready.

Timing WS like you say (or, even better, SC+MB), makes a party feel more like a team. But, the game just doesn't offer enough reward for those styles of play in exp parties, not ever since SE make it possible for physical WS's to land most of the time for decent damage instead of making players rely on magical WS's to SC or SA as the only sane way to use physical WS in the low to mid level ranges.

Old-time players (like me... /sigh) should adapt to the times, I think. I know I did not think WAR/NIN was a good idea three years ago, and would have laughed at the idea of a PLD/NIN. (I do miss SC+MB, though...)

I make it a point to make sure all relevant skills are capped before syncing or using an exp band. So an Anni Ring is by no means "efficient" if you're 75 and have the skills of a lvl 60ish.

You're overly concerned about skills, I think.

Evasion and skills for weapons, even two-handed weapons, go up relatively fast when facing VT to low IT enemies. If one syncs to no more than 10 levels below or so, one will catch up when in higher level parties easily enough--the worse case scenario having to using sushi instead of pizza or meat for a while, if you're not on sushi to begin with.

Granted the Lv.42 party I was in last night had a Bard, but my uncapped skills (my SAM has never been in party higher than Lv.38 before that--been in mostly low 30's lately) gave me an overall hit rate of 85.02% (Pizza, but no Hasso--Seigan full time), which is quite adequate for that level, IMO. (It was higher than everyone else's, anyway.)

If you're talking about things like Shield, Parrying, or Singing/intrument skills, that's a whole different matter--likely those won't be capped from exp'ing alone even if you never level synch or use an exp band.

While leveling BRD, I used exp band, and took Level Sync parties all the way to 72, then in un-sync'ed parties to 75. After parties, though, I always went to Al'Taieu to skill up--I had pretty much capped skills (singing, wind, and string) going into every party Lv.50+, I think. For PLD, which reached 75 (after 4 levels of mostly Campaign Battles) just before Level Sync was added, I just keep tanking every opportunity I get (which isn't often)... Think I'm within 4 or 5 of cap now for Shield, but still long ways off for Parrying--but these deficiencies do not prevent me from tanking on PLD.

I never argued that /NIN doesnt make a great tank or any of that. But saying its the BEST sub out there for low levels also doesnt help out lowbies.

I don't understand this argument.

"Using /NIN is very good, and you should do so as soon as you can Lv.24+." Seems like a helpful advice to me--not like anyone was saying "WAR/NIN or get off FFXI and go play WoW."