Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Sorry to drag this post from the depths (although its not too far down on the page) I just didnt want to create a new topic on this same thing with another one on the front page :D

I posted in General forum about something similar (among other things) and I'll be returning to the game in awhile (one i get steady internet) and WAR/BLU has caught my interest.

I'm an old fashioned WAR/MNK fan for a tank, nothing against PLD's or NIN's I just like to tank as a WAR. And with /BLU it definately seems more viable.
Caccon + various abilites, along with the new 2h weapon update (keep in mind i havnt playted since before BLU, COR and PUP were introduces so new to me is old news for you guys/gals) seems like WAR/BLU can keep up with the best of them when it comes to tanking.

I never had any issues as a WAR/MNK with a Gaxe before but with /BLU and 2H update it seems like this combo will prove to be far superior in many ways.

I was just wondering (due to lack of other posts on this subject) has anyone done aditional testing on this method of tanking? or is it still to 'iffy' for most partie to even attempt?

Unless I get alot of negative feedback I will most likely attempot this once I can play again, as I plan on Duo-Boxing (with a WHM) so relying on a fulltime healer isnt an issue with me, just curious as to how well cacoon stands against other subs or other main tank jobs (primarily PLD)

ANy additional info on this matter is greatly appreciated :D

EDIT: Also I'm aware Caccon isnt the only benfit of subbing /BLU (latent abilites, aditional skills) but form what I have seen/read it seems to be the biggest selling point of the sub.. +50% def with low MP cost and good duration.. youd be crazy not to at leats try :D

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I think WAR/BLU would make a decent tank with the right gear choices. Although people will frown upon it, especially post TOAU brats who dont even know what a "blood tank" is, and whiny WHMs who get pissed because party leader invited a Paladin instead of a Ninja.

People are so spoiled with melee/nin or nin/war, so seeing someone actually try something different is nice.

I'd like to see the results of WAR/BLU, as long as its not always going to be on "Colibri" because they aren't the only monsters in the game lol.

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Luckily when I try thi out i will be duo-boxing a WHM aswell so i wont have to deal with the whiney WHM :D

I agree with the gear chices, as even back when i was playing (before BLU and all them showed up) I always kept 2 sets of gear on my WAR for tanking and DD as needed.

I've always been a fan of 'Blood tanking' as its my personal preferance in a tank job to play as, but if a PLD or NIN can do the job just aswell or better I will stand down, but I will always give it my all no matter what choices I make..

I just cant wait to finally get back into the game and try out this new stuff

[Armando]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I'm interested in seeing results from this too. Don't think I've heard of anyone that's tried it in all this time.

Might need to make your own parties, 'cuz people won't take too well to the idea of a WAR tank. They'll definitely try to get another tank if they have the chance.

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I am more than willing to try, but i wont even be able to get the game for along time still, 6-9 months due to being stationed in Iraq and no net thats capable of playing anything online where I'm at.

Once I start playing i will definately give this combo a shot as, at leats to me, it seems like an excellent idea and would love to see how it holds up :D

Any other experiances on this are greatly appriciated as I'm always looking to learn more and reaserch before I play.

[Armando]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Well, dunno if you read a couple of pages back, but don't use Defense food (use meat, Shield Break will take care of your Acc needs,) do use Berserk, and don't touch Sturmwind (Shield Break's -40 Evasion is far superior.)

You'll never match the damage mitigation of a PLD, nor do you have as many hate tools. To make up for those shortcomings, hold hate through damage, and reduce the damage you take by killing the mob faster than other tanks. Play like you're a DD that happens to have a lot of Defense.

EDIT: Also, most blue spells will put up too little damage to be worth the drain on your stupidly small MP pool, but Mighty Strikes can put them up to par. No reason not to let loose some Bludgeons and Head Butts when you use it.

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I figured the MP would be an issue, and Cacoon would most likely be the only skill i use, anything else would most likely be for latent effects (Auto-refrsh and stuff like that) just to give a little extra where I can.

I read the post and agree with the meat food and berserk, and planed on the damage for hate.

Back when i used to play I played as a WAR/MNK tank (when parties would allow it) and loved it and never had many issues woth holding hate from damage + voke alone :D

[Lmnop]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

In 6-9 months, there'll prolly be another expansion in the works... who knows? But assuming nothing's changed, totally go for it.

Having your full time WHM buddy around, however, may somewhat skew your results. I'm not saying ditch him and make life harder on yourself... but try not to rely on him. If you're regularly losing hate to your WHM PL, you're not really proving anything... at that point, you could just be a War/Smn.

And definitely build your own parties. Your WHM dual box will help here... telling people "I have a PL" makes them care much less about your perceived "Sub-par" subjob.

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

The WHM wont be a PL, but a party meber.

I'll be starting from scratc on both accounts so niether wil have any levels to start with

[Celeal]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I have partied in Dunes, with a Taru WAR/BLU tank --- He was able to tank.

I opened this post a while (last year ).... At this moment, my view on WAR/BLU is a little different from before:

For a post level 30 WAR tank (except level 74+ WAR/NIN), the healer(s) has to be very skillful. If I compare WAR/BLU with PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR, it is like WAR/BLU sacrifices self-cure or shadows for more damage. Imagine a bad PLD/WAR who does not use his MP to tank, or a bad NIN/WAR who cannot keep his shadow up, that should be the rate WAR/BLU's bleeding.

On paper WAR/BLU tank works, if and only if the healer is on-par. However, it really depends on healers. If the healer is not willing to step outside the comfort zone, the WAR/BLU tank won't work.

[Kasandaro]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I actually did tank from 24 to 34 as for war/blu for the subjob static I was in. Things I found:

* Cocoon must be up at all times. Period.
* Attack or Acc/Eva food. As someone said, Defense food is overkill.
* If you have Shield levelled, axe+board can work well. Gaxe really does rock more, though.
* Once I got a level or two into the mobs, I found I could safely blow Berserk and still laugh at the damage.
* Pollen isn't there to cure yourself; you're not a PLD. Pollen is there to annoy the mob.
* Head Butt will save you and you healer gallons of mp (especially against gobs by the Yuhtunga OP). Ditto Healing Breeze. And both will net you stupid amounts of hate.
* Bring juice. Bring fruit and water crystals and make juice. Hold a bow to the rdm's head who you know has 60+ in Cooking. Point being, you'll want a Refresh effect.

[cyrusblaze]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

For a post level 30 WAR tank (except level 74+ WAR/NIN), the healer(s) has to be very skillful. If I compare WAR/BLU with PLD/WAR or NIN/WAR, it is like WAR/BLU sacrifices self-cure or shadows for more damage. Imagine a bad PLD/WAR who does not use his MP to tank, or a bad NIN/WAR who cannot keep his shadow up, that should be the rate WAR/BLU's bleeding.

On paper WAR/BLU tank works, if and only if the healer is on-par. However, it really depends on healers. If the healer is not willing to step outside the comfort zone, the WAR/BLU tank won't work.

Granted I havnt been ingame in along time but i dont think that is an adequite comparison betwee PLD Nin and WAR/BLU.

PLD generally rely on thier MP (flash and heals mainly) to hold hate and to lower the reliance on a healer.
Where as a WAR/BLU should be able to hold hate just from damage + voke + occasional BLU skill. (my 40+ WAR was more than capable of holding hate from damage and voke alone) And with Caccon and the right gear setup thier defense should be on par with PLD in DEF (without shield) Granted the WAR cant heal themselves and a reliance on a healer is needed (but not a problem in my situation)

NIN use thier shadows to prevent damage done to them comletely making a healer nowhere near as needed, but they oftne run into hate issues (especially pre-SATA) but thier DEF is rather low compared to a PLD or even a WAR so when they do get hit.. they get hit alot harder. Saying a WAR/BLU would 'bleed' as much as a NIN who sucks with shadwos just seems wrong, especially since a NINs DEF would be nowheres near as close to that of a DEF built WAR (with or without cacoon) I've found form my experiances the majority of healing needed with a NIN is that of party memebers due to the NINs unable to hold hate aswell as a PLD or a WAR tank.

A WAR/BLU is meant to get hit which is the main reason the cacoon really benfits this combo as the added defense + defense gear boosts the defense up alot as compared to a DD WAR, but they are able to crank out good DPS while being able to take the hits pretty well.
A reliance on a healer is not a problem for me as I'll always have a healer with me with my duo-box.

I know I havnt been able to try this combo out but I have read alot of information about this and I dont want to completely dismiss your opinions especially since you have some experiance with it, but the way you make it sound seems off, to me anyways. I honeslty cant come up with an accurate enough description mysellf other than a comparisoon to WAR/MNK.

I played as a WAR/MNK (tank style) up to 46ish and while i had many complaints at the start of a party (OMG no NIN!?!?!?!?!!! NUBZZ!!!) by the end I had revieved many compliments due to being a good tank with high hate capabilities. and while /MNK offered some nice advantages I feel /BLU with Cacoon offers more to my WAR-tank than what /MNK offered, although damage might be slightly less I think the added DEF more than makes up for that. That and being able to eat meat foods with little worry and possibly using berserk depending on the mob aswell.

All that aside, I appreciate all the feedback so far and if any others have additional info it would be greatly appreiciated :D

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Again, on paper, WAR/BLU looks great--but, in practice, it's harder to say. For me personally, the 50% defense boost on BLU/WAR was not sufficient as damage mitigation by late 30's. WAR does have better defense armor than BLU, as well as better defense skills, so it may more doable. However, there just not enough enough reliable testimonies to be sure at this point.

Don't pin all hopes on tanking well as WAR/BLU, is the idea. It may work, it may not. You'll have to try it to find out.

PLD generally rely on thier MP (flash and heals mainly) to hold hate and to lower the reliance on a healer.

PLD also have substantial damage mitigation from Shield, Flash, and a tradition of heavy armor. Not to mention enmity management job abilities like:

• Shield Bash - Pretty strong enmity tool in the low to mid levels.
• Sentinel - Strong enmity spike, plus doubles enmity of all action while active.
• Rampart - Another strong enmity spike, plus defense boost and magic damage absorb.
• Cover - Temporary take damage in place of a party member; very helpful while working on regaining the monster's attention.

Where as a WAR/BLU should be able to hold hate just from damage + voke + occasional BLU skill.

"Should" is the key word. What happens when someone else substantially out damages you?

In my party yesterday (SCH37-39), the DRG/WAR did 36% of the party's total damage output (not counting his Wyvern), while the WAR/NIN (Great Axe) did only 25%. The WAR was not badly geared(*), but obviously the DRG was much better--winning both DoT and WS damages.

A WAR/BLU may not be able to output substantially more compared to WAR/NIN, especially before Bludgeon from /BLU hits cap. (Even then, it would be very dependent on Refresh--just like PLD.)

So, what can a WAR/BLU do when the monster beats on the DRG while his Berserk is up? Before Wild Carrot, the WAR/BLU can 1) Hope Provoke is up, otherwise let the DRG get beat up; or, 2) Blow 55 MP on Healing Breeze to cure 1.5 person.

As for a PLD? This is where PLD shines; at that level, a PLD/WAR can draw from any of these job abilities: Provoke, Shield Bash, Sentinel, or Cover. Chances are, at least one of those should be up, and the PLD can toss out either a Cure II or III, depending on what the DRG needs.

One may even say it's not about "should" to be able to hold the monster's attention, but a matter of "must"--because once a WAR/BLU lose the monster, the options are rather limited.

In that, it's very much like a NIN. (Oh, and both NIN/WAR as well as PLD/WAR will also have Provoke, so it's a wash there.)

(*) The WAR who was out damage by the DRG is a good player; had four different weapons ready, and gears to DD, tank, and pull. My friend speculated that DRG may have merits, on top of the winning nature of polearm weapons at that level. Not much a normal WAR can do to keep up with that, short of merits.

* * *

I understand you favor WAR tanking, but no WAR set up can match the enmity management ability of a PLD as tank; that kind of flexibility and options are just not there.

* * *

NIN use thier shadows to prevent damage done to them comletely making a healer nowhere near as needed, but they oftne run into hate issues (especially pre-SATA) but thier DEF is rather low compared to a PLD or even a WAR so when they do get hit.. they get hit alot harder. Saying a WAR/BLU would 'bleed' as much as a NIN who sucks with shadwos just seems wrong, especially since a NINs DEF would be nowheres near as close to that of a DEF built WAR (with or without cacoon)

Celeal overstated the case a bit, but there's truth in what he wrote. NIN will evade far more of the attacks without Utsusemi than WAR. In any case, on average, you'll find WAR/BLU "bleeding" more over time than NIN.

During my last session on BLU/WAR tanking T-IT (mostly VTs) monsters, I was losing over 90% of my HP bar each fight, on average. (Never even attempted to use Berserk, BTW.) Now, I replaced a good deal of that loss myself, but it was still fair amount of work for the other BLU. That's not even tanking full time; thanks to the peaky nature of RNG's output, the bats were hovering near the RNG more than I liked.

Here's what I think of Cocoon tanking vs. NIN's Utsusemi tanking:

- Cocoon tank: Substantial enmity loss from damage taken, but make it back on DD output since can use real damage food, making it a volatile climb. (Mental image: gravel road)
- NIN Utsusemi tank: Builds enmity slower, but loses it slower, too. Prone to catastrophic enmity loss such as taking large damage from TP moves while Utsusemi is down, but can build enmity smoother when done well. (Mental image: smooth tarmac--with big bomb craters here and there.)

A WAR/BLU is meant to get hit which is the main reason the cacoon really benfits this combo as the added defense + defense gear boosts the defense up alot as compared to a DD WAR, but they are able to crank out good DPS while being able to take the hits pretty well.

While I don't think it's the case that WAR/BLU can really take hits that well past Lv.40 or so, I applaud you for wanting to try. I'd love to be proved wrong, and see the return of WAR tanks.

I played as a WAR/MNK (tank style) up to 46ish [ ...] by the end I had revieved many compliments due to being a good tank with high hate capabilities.

WAR/MNK should be better at generating enmity, compared to WAR/BLU. The real test though, is how well can the party chain, and for what kind of exp/hour. So it's not about WAR/BLU tanking alone, but about what kind of party you can build around it.

(For reference, my SCH37->39 party was doing about 5k+/hour, chaining 4-5 inconsistently due to link happy beetles. That was NIN, WAR, DRG, BRD, SCH, WHM.)

[Celeal]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Another consideration is, DEF+ only works until a certain point when tanking against exp. mobs (T ~ IT+):

1) Diminish return of DEF+ and VIT+.
2) Mobs' attack that "bypass" DEF+ in practice, such as magical attack, breath attack, critical-hit ~ one-shot attack, etc.

I am not trying to discourage WAR/BLU tanking. I am trying to point out the things that may cause problem for WAR/BLU tank. PLD's cures or NIN's shadows gives *time* for the healer, and relief some workload of main healing. For WAR/BLU tank, I imagine heavy workload on the healer side.

[Karinya]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Another consideration is, DEF+ only works until a certain point when tanking against exp. mobs (T ~ IT+):

1) Diminish return of DEF+ and VIT+.

Isn't really that big a deal on things smaller than a god; by the time you hit it on ordinary mobs you're already taking low double digits. In any case, it's just as big a problem for PLD and they overcome it.

2) Mobs' attack that "bypass" DEF+ in practice, such as magical attack, breath attack, critical-hit ~ one-shot attack, etc.

Crits don't bypass DEF exactly. The others are valid, but many of the attack types listed also go through shadows leaving a NIN even more vulnerable, and/or will hit a PLD just as hard as they hit you. Again, if you're not talking about snolls blowing up in your face or Chainspell Flare, these things can be dealt with.

I am not trying to discourage WAR/BLU tanking. I am trying to point out the things that may cause problem for WAR/BLU tank. PLD's cures or NIN's shadows gives *time* for the healer, and relief some workload of main healing. For WAR/BLU tank, I imagine heavy workload on the healer side.

Possibly. I'd build it first as a RDM+{WHM, SMN or SCH} party - so that they can split heals if needed and you have a targetable refresh that won't have the awkward positional issues of trying to get MP out of a BRD or COR. Once you see how that goes you can decide if you can branch out into something with less healing power.

Don't forget, though, that there's a meat eating WAR in that party, who isn't spending half his time recasting Utsu:Ichi, in addition to the other DDs. So having more backline isn't necessarily going to lead to a slower kill rate, especially if one or more of them are also MBing.