Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

[Celeal]

Just a random thought.

Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:
1. Full WAR AF (Enmity)
2. G.Axe (recently 2-hander update) and grip
3. Cocoon, Wild-Carrot from /BLU
4. Sanction-Refresh/Signet for MP
5. Break-WS or RR
6. Wide selecion combination on accessories and food

That should be a good mix on DD, Enmity, Defense and damage mitigation. Any opinion?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Are you suggesting WAR blood tanking? Your post doesn't specifically state that you are intending to tank, but I'll just make that assumption.

I believe that most people dislike blood tanks with a passion, but I'm in agreement that the update has rather significantly improved WAR blood tanking. Most of this improvement comes from 1 DEX = 1 ACC and not 1 STR = 1 ATK. With the improved accuracy while using a great axe or polearm (piercing weak enemies), I believe WAR/BLU blood tanks should be able to do an equally good job holding hate as Paladins who rely almost entirely on job abilities and cures.

Post Lv70, I don't see many people giving this a chance, and I believe you will be better tanking as WAR/SAM with Seigan+Third Eye. However, if you can find members for a THF burn, you might be reasonably effective.

Edit: Actually you may want to experiment with WAR/BLU with an Earth Staff post Lv66 since you will get Spirit Taker. However, Earth Staff is quite weak, so your Spirit Taker may only return 80 MP @ 100 TP.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Are you suggesting WAR blood tanking? Your post doesn't specifically state that you are intending to tank,

Pretty sure Celeal intends to tank... ^_-

Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:
[...]
That should be a good mix on DD, Enmity, Defense and damage mitigation. Any opinion?

- Not sure how Def+50% would compare with shield for damage mitigation at that level. (Been tanking on BLU/WAR (Lv.21 now) on EM-VT; the effect of Cocoon is noticeable, but not exactly breathtaking, esp. on VTs.)
- PLD/WAR can typically toss out three enmity spikes at the start of the fight: Provoke + Flash + one of: Sentinel, Rampage, 300% Spirits Within, and, later on, Warcry. WAR/BLU won't be able to match that, and will require more party cooperation.
- Is Wild Carrot based on Blue Magic skill? Or just VIT/MND?
- Signet doesn't do anything for MP in a party w/out down time between fights.
- If enough healing power in party, keep up Berserk full time?
- Wanted to say something about comparing to NIN/WAR, but it's just not a valid comparison. lol. Completely different style...

[DakAttack]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

It's not a blood tank if you're healing yourself with Wild Carrot, though it may not really get the job done. MP constraints would be huge.

[Armando]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Itazura: a WAR/BLU is supposed to hold hate through raw damage. +50% Defense is overkill, but that surplus of Defense means you can toss up Berserk and still keep the +25% Defense that the average tank gets from Defense food. And since that's covered, that means you can also eat meat. Slap on a Great Axe and you should be able to produce DD-level damage while having high Defense to hold hate with.

Wild Carrot is based off of Blue Magic Skill, Healing Skill, MND, and probably VIT. But WAR's MP pool isn't anywhere near big enough to support Wild Carrot, and it's not available 'til 60 anyways.

Not too keen on the idea of doing it 60+ though. WAR/BLU is best played in the earlier levels if you ask me. It could be done but you may as well sub /NIN and support the main tank by taking hate periodically.

Shields are kind of a moot point since we don't get any Size 3's 'til Lv.48. If you're going to go for the "meh" damage of a one-handed axe and the ~15% damage reduction of Size 2 shields, may as well just slap on the Great Axe and use Breaks to speed up kills and turn you and your party members into murder machines.

EDIT: In retrospect, if a WAR/BLU got refresh then Wild Carrot would certainly help post-60. Problem is noone's going to want to refresh a WAR/BLU. Part of the reason WAR blood tanking fails is because WAR doesn't have an MP pool. While a PLD and a WAR may take similar damage, the PLD's getting 80+ MP a minute plus whatever he gets in between pulls. Flash on its own is absurdly MP-efficient as it is. Then there's shielding. A WAR/BLU tank would probably be better suited with a PUP supporting with Flash and Cures, maybe even a DRG/WHM main healer to milk that MP conservation for all it's worth and capitalize on the extra damage the WAR/BLU would bring to the table. That'd be one hell of an oddball party but as long as the mob can't one-shot the WAR from 50% then it'd be ok (PLDs already cut it pretty close with Erucas but people are willing to do it anyways.) WAR/BLU + DRG/WHM + PUP + COR + (anything x2) would be pretty fun.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Itazura: a WAR/BLU is supposed to hold hate through raw damage. +50% Defense is overkill,
[...]
Shields are kind of a moot point since we don't get any Size 3's 'til Lv.48.

Yes, yes, I understand the concept. The whole bit about shield vs. Cocoon is about comparing damage mitigation between PLD/WAR and WAR/BLU, not Great Axe vs. Axe+Shield.

And, the topic is about Lv.60+ WAR/BLU, so Wild Carrot is pretty important to the discussion.

Post level 60 WAR/BLU tank:

Problem is noone's going to want to refresh a WAR/BLU.

I would gladly Refresh a WAR/BLU who's using MP, but I'm a bit odd.

Edit:
Accodring to this:
Mithra WAR60/BLU30: 96 MP native, before spell/equipment.
Galka PLD60/WAR30: 98 MP native, before equipment.

WAR/BLU's small MP pool may be a problem, but likely not insurmountable. For a Mithra, at least.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

The problem with MP tanking with COR and BRD in particular is unless you have like a DRK or BLU up there, its hard to justify giving a buff that doesn't present a benefit to all those on the front line. This is usually why you hear bickering from a BRD or COR that the PT should have a RDM to cover the PLD, Refresh gear, sanction etc. because its just hell to get the people who need ballad/Evoker's and those who don't need it to position themselves properly to receive/avoid it.

I will say, though, that the update made Gallant's Roll and Magus Roll situationally useful and very nicely so. I've had a bit of time to play around with them and come up with some impressive results.

I hit a PLD with Lucky #3 on gallant's in Limbus and we were on Behemoths. Hits that usually go for 200-250 were turned into 150-190 and returning anywhere from 22-50 damage on the Blaze Spike effects.

Sadly, I made some further tests and the more DEF you pile on, the less damage gets reflected. I did COR/BLU on Lesser Colibri and where I usually took 60-70 ish damage and returned 9-20 damage on spikes, but when I used Cocoon, the spikes returned like 3-6 damage.

That's still less damage taken overall, but it shows the diminishing returns of Cocoon and damage reflection.

Magus Roll I did on Bahamut in a tank PT. I was actually going to question being in a tank PT at first, but once we got a BLU in my PT, I requested the leader leave her with us.

Barfira + Magus Roll's results were extremely impressive. The other two PTs didn't even have these elemental and magic defense buffs. But damn, I don't think one of our PLDs even got into the red the whole fight. All this fire damage going around and our PLDs and even I hardly took damage.

While in terms of EXP/Merit Party mechanics COR and BRD might clash with WAR/BLU, there is quite a bit of potential for them to be impressive together elsewhere.

I once did some playing around with Minne x2 and Cocoon, dear god a naked taru should not be allowed to take such litttle damage. Its just not right.

[Callisto]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Since this is a higher-level WAR/BLU bloodtank we'd be considering, you can also include an Ethereal Earring into the possiblities. If a WAR main this is likely to be the chosen AN reward. Yes, WAR/BLU would likely have a terrible natural MP pool depending on the race, however Wild Carrot only costs 37mp a pop, and between Refresh/Ballad/Evoker's and an Ethereal that's not too difficult to sustain.

As far as getting a Refresh for the WAR/BLU, if a RDM who is worth their salt is told that a WAR/BLU will be tanking, they will Refresh them without question. And yes it can suck for a BRD or COR to land their Refresh abilities on a tank, but if the party isn't completely retarded about how they line up it isn't too difficult to land it on the tank and not the DDs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

because its just hell to get the people who need ballad/Evoker's and those who don't need it to position themselves properly to receive/avoid it.

To be fair, some BRDs simply refuse to give front line Ballad, even when the front line is eager to cooperate.

One time, partying on PLD and exp'ing off Magmatic Eruca, I asked for Ballad from a BRD ("Showmo", who replaced a RDM) and asked how he wanted the frontline to be arranged, and where we should stand. I asked several times, and he ignored me each time.

Later, when I demanded Ballad (all-capped party chat) when my MP was running very low, the BRD "lol'ed" at me and claims he's a PLD75 and not used to getting Ballad. (This is after he decided to start pulling "merit style" without tell us, while the THF was pulling.)

I know most Bards are not that stupid/annoying, but I have a feeling in many parties, people who need Ballad want to cooperate more than the Bards who should be giving Ballad...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I know most Bards are not that stupid/annoying, but I have a feeling in many parties, people who need Ballad want to cooperate more than the Bards who should be giving Ballad...

I think its just that BRDs get so many overcautious PLDs that they just give up. I've PTed with PLDs that treat every PT like (1) A SATA setup or (2) as if they're dealing with a cone AoE mob, even when they're not.

This means rather than PLD placing his back to the mages, he ends up sandwiching the melee (who probably need a different buff. between him and the mages. It is so damn annoying you just eventually give up hope and assume no PLD knows how to line up, which is why even I get a bit ill-tempered when I don't see that RDM that needs to be in the PT. Plus I think its also that BRDs and CORs want to give PLDs real hate tools from thier buffs, not just be a manabucket for everyone in range. Its really depressing to BRD to just be casting Ballads, hell, people talk about how BRDs are loved for endgame and WTF is the first thing they do with them?

BLM or SMN PT.

Ick. All these phenominal melee buffs go to waste and you're made to play Manabattery/Curetank. Ew. Ew. Ew.

You can compromise on BRD and just do the three-buff cycle for an MP/Melee PT, but its harder to break it down to that on COR if the PT also nags for that EXP gimmick buff we have and then a melee buff. I just can't do Corsair's Roll for that setup and people get fussy.

Anyway, when you get the PLD that lines up, its all good. But those PLDs are soooooo rare. I'm sure a WAR/BLU would be much more eager to position themselves, but PLDs just get plain spoiled on RDMs.

[Lmnop]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Enter the almighty L-shape.

Mages . . . tank

. . . . . . . . melee

Except either the puller sucks or the tank sucks or they at least suck at working together so the mob ends up coming in from odd directions and the melee scatter and everyone swarms the mob, losing formation, etc etc.

I think my new de facto response to "I have X job at 75" will be "yeah, and you probably suck."

War/blu is certainly interesting. As for Wild Carrot... I can't help but feel that mp would be better spent on Damaging spells like Bludgeon.

[Celeal]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

Sorry for the late reply, I was very busy in past couple of days.

For MP issue, how a PLD tank is going get Refresh/Ballad/Evoker is how a WAR/BLU is going to get it. As Lmnop mentioned in above post, L-Shape is the basic position for any MP-driven tanks with BRD or COR.

In non-burn parties which the mobs are not pull-and-sleep in the mid of battle, the tank can have Melee's Song during battle, and Ballad in between pulls. For my PLD, 20 or 30 second Ballad I+II every battle before it is overwritten with other songs is enough MP for my PLD to function.

For MP-driven Tank (such as PLD) in true TP burn parties, which the mobs are pull-and-sleep in the mid of battle, the amount of Tank's self-cure is proportional to how well the Tank holds hate. If the Tank (PLD) is dumping Cures on other party members who get hate, technically the main healer with Cure more effectively in long team. In other words, the tank (PLD) should spend less MP in TP-burn parties compare to traditional parties since the tank only hold hate for a short period of time.

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

[Callisto]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

I was wondering about this myself, is it confirmed that the new DEX:ACC 2h ratio carries over to Blue Magic?

[Lmnop]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

I suppose it's possible that it'd be different, but as of now the rule is (with no exceptions, to my knowledge): Physical Blue Magic accuracy = Main hand accuracy. So I would assume so.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Post 2-hander adjustment makes WAR/BLU possible?

IMHO, the sequence of WAR/BLU tank using of Wild Carrot or Healing Breeze should be different from PLD's Cures. WAR/BLU also has tools like Head Butt (with 1 DEX == 1 ACC using G.Axe), Auto-Regen (Healing Breeze + Sheep Shong), etc.

Auto-Regen is 20 HP/min, right? That's nice, but not really a big deal at Lv.60 where a Mithra WAR/BLU has over 1100 HP. I'd rather equip spells for STR or DEX (or even VIT), if anything.

Head Butt will be accurate with A+ weapon in hand, but would the stun proc well? The damage also would likely be unimpressive, since the D rating comes from Blue Magic skill. While tanking on BLU/WAR, Sandspin gave more enmity than Head Butt, so Head Butt likely won't much of an enmity tool for WAR/BLU either, but that's a very subjective observation.