WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

[TehTyr]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

It would also be good if Utsusemi also relied on your Ninjitsu for it's strength.

A Ninja with capped Ninjitsu should have full benefits from Utsusemi, however a war/nin should have gimped Shadows, handy in some situations, but utterly useless as a main stay of tanking.

The removal of /nin as a powerful sub would also mean more diverse DD's in exp parties.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that I got from 55 to 61 as WAR/MNK, gax'ing all the way. In most cases, we only had a RDM healer. In most cases, I was out damaging other jobs, until we hit the crawlers and I forgot accuracy food. -_-
(The extra HP from HP Boost took care of any hate.)

[nanatsu]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

The removal of /nin as a powerful sub would also mean more diverse DD's in exp parties.

Not really. Next step down is either /war or /thf and that's all you would ever see. I wouldn't necessarily call that diverse, as those are still pretty standard now anyway.

[TehTyr]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Not really. Next step down is either /war or /thf and that's all you would ever see. I wouldn't necessarily call that diverse, as those are still pretty standard now anyway.

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.

You see -alot- of war/nin's, simply because they can deal damage, keep hate, and negate damage. If /nin was no longer "zomg", you would start seeing a more diverse range of jobs in exp parties, which can only be a good thing.

[Caspian]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.
You see -alot- of war/nin's, simply because they can deal damage, keep hate, and negate damage. If /nin was no longer "zomg", you would start seeing a more diverse range of jobs in exp parties, which can only be a good thing.

Actually, more than likely, they'd just migrate to another sub and everyone would be useing that sub all the time.

[TehTyr]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Actually, more than likely, they'd just migrate to another sub and everyone would be useing that sub all the time.

...

I'm not talking about subs, as I am more talking about mains.

As far as subs go though, there are 5 different subs excluding /nin for WAR that can and have worked.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

battle of semantics? Let's see if I can help (likely not).

If you have a party consisting of: Rdm, Brd, War, Nin and you're one of them. The other 3 people want you to invite 2 more WARs or maybe MNKs. They do not want a Dragoon, or a Dark Knight, or a Blue Mage, or any of those.

People know shadows are easy, and they don't want jobs without shadows.

What TehTyr is saying is that by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you increase the amount of parties with jobs that don't function as well with /nin.

This goes back to the classic debate about how Wars get an offensive and defensive boost from /nin, while DRGs or DRKs* only get a defensive boost. In addition, you could rationalize that they're technically losing offense because they're not longer subbing War to get the benefits that Wars enjoy naturally.

Obviously, /sam is supposed to fill that niche, being that it gives a wonderful defensive edge as well as an offensive boost that rivals /War. The problem is: no one believes in it.

As for Utsu nerfing: I feel that NIN mains should have ~5% chance of getting hit through shadows, but no more. This is mainly because Paladins can get crit'd, while NINs blink would-be crit hits. I don't really want to see /nin nerfed, as I truely enjoy the concept of thf/nin as tank for certain scenarios. It's also the last bastion of WAR tanking which, if you know anything about me, you know I'm not quite willing to let go.

However, I think a nerf like that truely would be best for the game. Particularly if it's implemented along with means of making War tanking viable -- w/out the answer being 2 wars bouncing hate.

I have a RDM "friend" who I recently asked if he wanted to come main heal for our merit party. Layout at the time was War War Brd Blu. He immediately turned it down because there was a BLU in it. He doesn't mind main healing, as he does it all the time. But the BLU wasn't a Mnk, a War, or a Nin.

I don't know how else to stress this to any of you, so here comes a mess of my mind: the vast majority of the people who are in positions to make things known to the masses remain close-minded. The core 5 jobs of the game continue to shun the other 13. Since those 13 aren't getting invited to the "dream team" parties, they continually lose their chance to prove what they can do or to show off new tricks. Those 13 thus dwindle in population as the majority of the people who decide to level those jobs have never explored deeply enough into the game to understand where it stands now. That sort of understanding is required to show that your job can do something that people aren't aware of. This is basic: a DD-only Blue mage, an overturtling Paladin, a Dark Knight with perpetually full mp. A THF that TPs and SAs and WSs all in the same gear. You get the drift? It's the common incompetence that gives these classes bad names, and not enough creative drive existing in those jobs.

I think it no coincidence that the people proving acc formula and finding mob stats all have Mnk or War or Nin (or all 3) at 75.

*yes, I know Drk can dual wield axes. But at that point, their /nin is only adding enough offense to nullify what they lose from swapping off their scythes.

[Karinya]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

What TehTyr is saying is that by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you increase the amount of parties with jobs that don't function as well with /nin.
This goes back to the classic debate about how Wars get an offensive and defensive boost from /nin, while DRGs or DRKs* only get a defensive boost.

They *do* get an offensive boost from /nin, but it's not necessarily greater than the offensive boost they could have gotten from /sam or /thf. But when you get about-as-good offense and OMGWTF better defense, few people are going to pass that up.

Additionally, by destroying everyone's reliance on /nin, you bring tanking back into the game. Without such reliable utsusemi, it would actually be dangerous for some jobs to exceed the tank's hate - which brings back the value of tanks which can hold hate better, and THF and /THF to raise their hate limits even higher.

In addition, you could rationalize that they're technically losing offense because they're not longer subbing War to get the benefits that Wars enjoy naturally.
Obviously, /sam is supposed to fill that niche, being that it gives a wonderful defensive edge as well as an offensive boost that rivals /War. The problem is: no one believes in it.

Well, I do, but on DRG, which is stuck with a 2h weapon whether we want it or not (and doesn't have any magic to hose the way DRK does; btw, why is it that Hasso and Seigan make you bad at spellcasting, but you can *go berserk* and have no penalty? +50% to all spell casting times and recasts while Berserk would shake up a few tactics, I bet. ) The defense isn't that great, but who cares, I have high and super jumps. Hasso really is excellent, though, the acc combined with acc bonus trait (and some gear, of course) keeps me at a good hit rate with meat on almost every mob and 10% haste in no equip slots is beautiful.

As for Utsu nerfing: I feel that NIN mains should have ~5% chance of getting hit through shadows, but no more. This is mainly because Paladins can get crit'd, while NINs blink would-be crit hits.

PLD can block a crit, but yeah. I think that sounds about right for exp mobs, maybe going up to 10% on hnm (some hnm are so helpless against blink it's just outrageous).

I don't really want to see /nin nerfed, as I truely enjoy the concept of thf/nin as tank for certain scenarios. It's also the last bastion of WAR tanking which, if you know anything about me, you know I'm not quite willing to let go.

I think WAR can tank well without /NIN. But most players don't have the right gear, tactics or even party formation to make it work effectively, because it's too easy - and effective - to just wear all attack gear and spam utsusemi.

However, I think a nerf like that truely would be best for the game. Particularly if it's implemented along with means of making War tanking viable -- w/out the answer being 2 wars bouncing hate.

Offense and defense used to be a tradeoff. They should be again. Which is why my *other* idea for Utsusemi is to have the user's attacks slowed 5% for each shadow that is active... Magic recasts wouldn't be affected so a ninja could still keep shadows up the same way they do now, and there'd be no effect on kiting by either NIN or X/NIN, but the DD-and-tank-at-the-same-time idea would take a major hit. Which is the whole point, of course. Blink tanking is a neat idea, but having the same party member be 100% of a DD and 100% of a tank is just too good. Nothing else can possibly be balanced while that is allowed. It's like having a 7 member party, without the exp reduction.


A WAR who is willing to gear and eat for defense can have a lot of defense - about as much as a PLD for WAR/MNK, or more if he goes /BLU - dealing better damage and probably holding hate at least as well (they have better tanking AF for one thing). There's just one catch - you need more healers to split the curing. In a time when BLU don't even set up the healing spells they have until you beat them over the head 47 times, it's hard to find a party willing to make this adjustment outside a static.

I think WAR could stand to get some more tanking-oriented traits or abilities - that aren't designed to work with /NIN. E.g.:

Revenge (trait): Whenever you are damaged by a physical attack, you gain attack power until your next attack (like a free Boost, only probably a bigger effect).

This would allow you to recoup some of the damage lost by using tanking armor and food, putting your damage further ahead of PLD to compensate for the extra healing needed. Gaining more TP when an enemy hits you would be an interesting idea toward the same goal too.

Obviously these should be given only after level 38 - the whole point is to improve WAR in comparison to other tanks, who are usually /WAR anyway.

I have a RDM "friend" who I recently asked if he wanted to come main heal for our merit party. Layout at the time was War War Brd Blu. He immediately turned it down because there was a BLU in it. He doesn't mind main healing, as he does it all the time. But the BLU wasn't a Mnk, a War, or a Nin.

With friends like those, who needs total strangers?

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Here, let me point out why we have all these threads on imbalance:

But most players don't have the right gear, tactics or even party formation to make it work effectively

Everything that's wrong with the universe.

And yeah, my RDM friend is a friend because he's nice to me, and he's a good guy. Everyone's with their faults, and his is a glaring misunderstanding of how the game works. I feel like /blist'ing him every time he talks about FFXI mechanics or any time any particular job comes up, so I just don't talk to him about that crap.

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Nah~ fix the mobs in ToAU, that will fix it all... cannot really blame the players, it is logical to use the most suitable tools to achieve the goal. In this case, /nin in exp parties...

*me go to play 9Dragons until FFXI next expansion releases~

Peace.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

melee burns in sky were pretty much the best exp pre-AU too. KRT really wasn't any different, though at least skeletons make shadows useless. And my first Tp burn party was @60ish in Ule[tab key] on raptors. They were already getting popular before AU came out. My sister's BRD went from 55-75 mostly on them. That was all before AU.

AU just made it accessible to everyone instead of the first 2 parties in the zone. And they made mobs that encouraged the (lack of) tactics. I'm looking at you, Amnesia.

Sorry guys, bored at work so I'm back-to-back posting.

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

And the Cobrils (spelling*) reflect on BLMs's black magic too... sigh. Maybe BLM should BLM/NIN and join the club too *joke*