WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Later, noting that I always had some form of refresh on me, I said I should've gotten Sanction Refresh so that I could use my Rune Chopper (if Evoker's averages 2 mp/tic, auto refresh would be #3 which would sustain it indefinately and give me +5 acc, +9% haste for a -2 DMG trade off). It wasn't long after that I started getting tells from all of the BLU's HNM LS about how much of a noob I am and how I should be swinging dual axes.

And then some of them started coming out to our camp so they could harass me there.

Sounds like those players haven't learned how to process negative emotions without having to hurt other people just to make themselves feel better.

Look on the bright side... since you were their target, you probably saved some poor puppies from getting kicked around that night.

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Unless WAR/SAM + G.Axe is hurting the party's performance, or WAR/NIN's performance is much better than WAR/SAM, there is nothing wrong to WAR/SAM.

That BLU's comment of /SAM cannot pull is very noobish. If one Third Eye and 30 seconds is not enough for pulling, something is wrong with the player or the camp location.

[Eji Kazuma]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Yeah... I would say that players like that who can't play any class combination other then what is the norm or what is laid out before them really should just go to WoW. Mindless slaughtering for mindless players...

I honestly don't mean to harass you, but please, please, please do yourself and your parties a huge favor and use Great Axe. Nothing even comes close to Great Axe from 1-40 simply because Shield Break borders on broken at the low levels, and either way no WS beats out the raw power of Sturmwind. I'd go as far as saying Great Axe is the best weapon from 1-48 in 99% of the situations. -40 Evasion on the mob is just too big to ignore, AND it lets you land Acid Bolts easier.

I understand that Great Axe is the best for warriors... and I'd like to say I understood the power of Shield Break or Sturmwind, but I honestly don't like Great Axes, so I've never really used one.

My level 40 War has a 0 in G.Axe, and 0 in regular axe... and my level 30 War on this character has a 6 in both. I tried to give Axes a chance... but they just don't appeal to me.

I know, this probably means that I won't be able to take Warrior very far, because most people believe very adamantly that this is the only way to go... but unfortunetly I just don't believe in playing the game the way someone else wants me to play... I also don't see a purpose in paying for something I don't enjoy.

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."


EDIT: Also, I have noticed on a Consistant basis that skills which deal critical damage based on the %age of TP when used Deal more damage with higher then 100% TP. For Example, Powerslash... However Powerslash is a very Inconsistant Weaponskill because of it's nature... so I don't know if there is any kind of formula for this.

[Armando]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

I know, this probably means that I won't be able to take Warrior very far, because most people believe very adamantly that this is the only way to go... but unfortunetly I just don't believe in playing the game the way someone else wants me to play... I also don't see a purpose in paying for something I don't enjoy.

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."

I understand where you're coming from; the problem is that Shield Break is too good to ignore. It doesn't just make a big difference for you, it makes a big difference for every DD in the party. It makes killing a lot faster, and therefore everyone gets a lot of EXP per hour. If the difference between Great Sword and Great Axe were marginal, sure, enjoy - just like if the difference between WAR/SAM and WAR/NIN is slim, then going WAR/SAM should be ok regardless of what the cookie-cutter combo is. But if you deliberately end up gimping yourself and the party, then it's not ok.

There's a saying that goes something along the lines of "It's your $12.95, but in a party it's our $64.75." You wouldn't like partying with a PLD that uses spears just because sword and shield doesn't appeal to him, or a MNK that uses poles because he thinks bo staves are cool.

Also, I have noticed on a Consistant basis that skills which deal critical damage based on the %age of TP when used Deal more damage with higher then 100% TP. For Example, Powerslash... However Powerslash is a very Inconsistant Weaponskill because of it's nature... so I don't know if there is any kind of formula for this.

This is true, but two 100% Power Slashes will outperform one 200% Power Slash, and two 100% Hard Slashes will outperform one 200% Hard Slash. For formulas I suggest you go to VZX's FFXI Doc.

Back on topic: Damn, Lmnop, that thing with the BLU really sucked. I can't believe his LS buddies came all the way out there to harass you, that's pretty retarded right there. How did you feel you performed in comparison to going WAR/NIN, though? Did you party side by side with any WAR/NINs, for that matter? And what weapon were you using Wardancer?

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

edit:
err.. i was wrong with the Hasso part, plz forget it...
/end edit

Edit:
As for comparing with WAR/NIN, 3 weeks ago I had a party with another WAR/NIN while I was using WAR/SAM. My WAR was level 65 and leveled up to 66 in that same party:

The camp location is at Mount Z(tab) and fighting fire-crawlers. I cannot remember the party setup (it has been 3 weeks), but the main tank was a PLD, and there was a BRD in the party.

The WAR/NIN was level 66 when the party started, my WAR/SAM was level 65, a few K TNL. I was the puller in the party.

I don't have parser, but I think my performance as WAR/SAM is a draw with the WAR/NIN: When going-all-out, The WAR/NIN did use his shadows, and I did use my Third Eye and run behind the PLD for Cover. Overall the WAR/NIN take less damage than my WAR/SAM while riding the hate-line, but my WAR/SAM unleashed more WS (Raging Rush every fight, plus additional Full Break every other fight) than the WAR/NIN.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

It's kinda the same thing you see all over the place... how someone demands that you use a certain subjob or they won't invite you to their party. From what I see, that's the same as saying "You play by my rules or you don't play at all."

It's more like, if you want to play with other people, you better be ready to compromise a bit on your preferences. You can weild any weapon you like, use any sub job you like, and wear any gear you like... if you play solo.

[Eji Kazuma]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

[Timian]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

It's all about effeciency.
Your WAR/RNG might have put out nice numbers,
but pulling hate through massive damage with no way
to migate damage makes you an MP sponge.
Also, did you actually try to parse your WAR/RNG against
a properly geared WAR/NIN? No idea what level you're referring to,
but for the most part, I'm pretty sure you'd be left behind.

"Trying to be the best they can be" sometimes means
doing what has been proven to work.

[Lmnop]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

actually, he's talking about a prime level range for war/rng. A decently geared War/Rng is pretty sweet to behold. Particularly if you're using Holy Bolts. They're bad ass. Though If I were War/rng, I'd do it for one of 2 reasons: use a Great Axe and still open Distortion for a THF (as well as get hightened use out of debuff bolts) or save TP for Shield Break, so that it's cake for my bolts to hit which, again, would be debuff bolts and then Holy Bolts for the bulk of your damage.

I've heard of War/rng using Bow and if you have good enough R.Acc at the levels where the skill gaps aren't so great, the WAR's incredible STR rating just makes damage wonderful. War/sam is viable @40, methinks. It'll be as good as war/nin DD-wise, for sure. But I really don't feel like using this thread to bicker about using optimal/sub-optimal combos or whatever. I'd like to keep away from other SJs and any B or under weapons and so on. This is for war/sam so let's keep it that way.

Fact: On paper, War/Sam is at least as good as war/nin DD-Wise.
Fact: Without people to give it a chance, we'll never know for sure.

Someone gave Nin/Drk tanking a chance. Someone gave Tp-burn Kirin a chance. Things that seemed incredibly plausible on paper, and they said "let's try it!" So why hasn't war/sam been met the same way? Because 90% of WARs are fan boys. And Fan boys want to be cool and powerful and they don't want to find out that there's anything that could be as cool as them.

In that party, I parsed slightly under the BLU using Gawaine's Axe. Considering my parser had 2 fights of me not fighting (afk while they kept going) I think I'd be pretty close to even with him, and if I had done the Rune Chopper trick, I think I would've out-done him. My accuracy also lacks quite a bit, and colibri meant I was eating meat. While we both did roughly 80k damage over the course of the night, my DRG friend + Wyvern did a wonderful 100K damage. And I think he only ate one food the whole night.

The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow. I've mentioned before that the game is too fickle to attempt to activate 2 JAs back-to-back. Sometimes this works out wonderfully, and your bergressor animations overlap. Sometimes Lag kicks you in the groin and you have to wait for 'serk to completely end before you can begin aggressor. The same is for Seigan/Third Eye.

My normal Process: WS, get hate, still caught in WS animation and get hit. Get hit a 2nd time between activating Seigan and Third Eye. Mob is now attacking Tank again and I have Seigan up. So I go straight back to Hasso if it's up... and then get hate again. Alternatively, I simply pop Third Eye, anticipate a single hit, then get hit twice so it turns to the tank. There goes my chance for Counters and now i have a minute recast on Third Eye instead of 30 seconds.

I would like to see one of a few things happen: one that i've stated before is that I think activating Seigan should automatically use Third Eye, setting it's recast back to 30 seconds and doing both animations simultaneously. In the event that Third Eye is down still, it simply won't auto-fire. But maybe that's too difficult to implement. Alternatively, I'd like to see Seigan actually have it's own function. Has anyone noticed that as a stand-alone JA, it does absolutely nothing? I would like to see activating it give you it's own "Third Eye" effect that doesn't stack with Third Eye, yet is only guarenteed to anticipate one attack. Thus you'd activate Seigan for the first Anticipate (and just hope the mob doesn't Double Attack) and then use Third Eye to tank from there. This fix would be easier to implement, and would cover another concern of mine: I think Seigan should make you always dodge at least 2 attacks. In my experience, I only anticipate once around 30-40% of the time. That's altogether too much hitting being done to me.

All and all, I'd equate the Seigan/Third Eye combo with casting Utsusemi:Ichi -after- you get hate, except at least it's not interruptable. I want to get hit occasionally - Utsusemi is already broken enough, S-E isn't gonna give us another way to infinitely avoid damage. But it'd be nice if it could reliably cut the damage down to managable size.

I'll end this dreadfully long post on a high note:

when any DD starts a fight with TP in a tp-burn situation, they're wasting it if they hold it. But if they let loose, not even 6 shadows can save them, often enough. As a War/sam, I take those opportunities to use a break WS -- Shield, Armor, or even Full Break. If the mob just came in, there's a strong likelyhood that even a Break will pull hate, but it won't be for very long. a 500 dmg Steel Cyclone gets a bit more attention.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?

My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

Most players aren't trying to be the best WAR/NIN they can be, let alone be the best WAR/RNG that they can be. It's hard to tell the difference between someone who's actually putting thought into making the most out of their sub, and someone who thinks they're a beautiful and unique snowflake.

[Karinya]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Maybe the MNK was confused because they double attacked with one hand and then kicked, making 4 total attacks that round. Granted, this would mean he'd have to be unable to tell his hand from his foot to make that mistake, but I've met players that dumb.

I bet I can guess how many non-DD spells that BLU cast. :p In some jobs it's really easy to tell who the stupid players are... of course, telling a war/anything they can't pull is a pretty big hint.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

Maybe the MNK was confused because they double attacked with one hand and then kicked, making 4 total attacks that round. Granted, this would mean he'd have to be unable to tell his hand from his foot to make that mistake, but I've met players that dumb.

Well, double attacking with each fist might be rare, but it's not impossible. I've done H2H skill ups and seen double attack fire for each hand. It's not any more rare than, say, seeing 4 attacks as WAR/NIN without Joyeuse/Ridill/K. Club/etc.

[Karinya]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

In that party, I parsed slightly under the BLU using Gawaine's Axe. Considering my parser had 2 fights of me not fighting (afk while they kept going) I think I'd be pretty close to even with him,

Depending on the parser you may be able to exclude specific fights and recalculate totals/averages based only on the selected fights, I think.

and if I had done the Rune Chopper trick, I think I would've out-done him. My accuracy also lacks quite a bit, and colibri meant I was eating meat. While we both did roughly 80k damage over the course of the night, my DRG friend + Wyvern did a wonderful 100K damage. And I think he only ate one food the whole night.

Also, you said you had Evoker's on most of the time - that probably means the BLU had the buffs most favorable to him, and you didn't. And if you were using break WS, some of the rest of the party's damage is actually from the def and eva down you are putting on the mob. (A BLU can do something similar with Enervation and Infrasonics, but I'm betting this one didn't bother...)

If your accuracy was lacking with an A+ weapon and Hasso (and possibly Shield/Full Break too), it would have been noticeably worse with an A- weapon and no acc abilities/traits other than Aggressor. Damn high eva mobs that steal your food, anyway.

Was the DRG /SAM too? On a mob that wasn't weak to any particular damage type DRG probably would have been in the same ballpark with the other two - although, like you, he probably wasn't getting the most beneficial combination of buffs.

Were all three DDs the same level?

The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow.

Great, I can look forward to that with DRG/SAM too.

You could always activate Seigan+3E before you WS, but then you lose the ACC and STR of Hasso. Might be a worthwhile tradeoff in some situations though, like a NIN tank you KNOW is going to lose hate and take a while to get it back.

[Ziero]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

See, now honestly, that's what I'm talking about. If someone is trying to be the best they can and they feel that they are better one way rather then the other. Then who's business is it to tell them that they should, or shouldn't play a certain way?
My War/Rng is a perfect example... I can seek for hours on with that combo without an invite, switch to a Ninja sub and suddenly have an invite in seconds. I don't think it's fair for someone to make judgements on a class combination just by glance, I belive that as long as someone is trying to be the best they can be it really doesn't matter.

See this is the problem. You are not trying to be the best you can be if you refuse to use axes on War. Even while lvling Drk I found that Gaxe outperforms Gsword in terms of DoT and WS dmg because at lower lvls Gswords are just not that good. But -40 evasion and a two fold critical attack beat everything Gsword can offer for a good long time. And on top of that, as a War, you don't even have access to one of the strongest Gsword WS, Spinning Slash. You are trying to have fun while you play, and you find Gswords more fun. But you are not trying to be the 'best' you can be because Gaxes are MUCH stronger.

On top of that, as a War, the best ones lvl ALL their options. Axe, Gaxe, Sword, Gsword, Polearm, Scythe, Nin sub, Rng sub, Thf sub, Sam sub and hell even Mnk sub. The best have most, if not all, of those lvled to a point where they're effectively useful. If you want to play using a different weapon and ignoring your main ones, that's fine and all. Though you can not say you're trying to be your best when you deliberately ignore your best weapons and alternative sub choices.

As for War/Sam, I'm going to attempt to join my next pt on war as just that. Sadly I'm still 59 with about 8k tnl so it might be tough. But I would much rather ding 60 and be able to start busting out some Meditated Raging Rush goodness. Plus it's much harder to keep Gaxe skilled then it is to keep axe capped, so any excuse to lvl with my Gaxe is a good one imo.

[Celeal]

Re: WAR/SAM in Exp. Parties

The problem with War/sam: Seigan is too slow.

Maybe Utesumi is too godly XD

However, Seigan + Third Eye is great for setting up SATA.

At least Seigan has good chances for counter-attack, Utesumi cannot.

IMHO, /NIN with both Ichi + Ni shadows are the best for bouncing hate. For Ichi only (without Ni), for the 1st five/six shadow is great, but beyond that, I think Seigan + Third Eye is better.

Unless I am wrong, AoE magic does not destroy Seigan + Third Eye (unlike blink or shadows).