oh my god

[TehTyr]

Re: oh my god

This comes up a lot but I find it a confusing. The bonus from DW2 is only 15% vs DW1's 10%. So DW1 is a much greater difference from single wielding than DW2 is from DW1.

I switched over to /Nin in the early 40s because it was too easy to draw hate with /Mnk. True I could lay off using the Mnk JAs but then what's the point to having it as a sub? With /Nin I've got 6 hits I can take after pulling hate which is tons of time for the tank to get it back *and* I've got a 10% dmg bonus in form of 10% faster swings from DW1.

Waiting till level 50 so that 10% bonus becomes a 15% bonus just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Now if you want to argue that Wars should be single wielding Great Axes, that's fine, but I find it even easier to pull hate with a G Axe and /Mnk than with a single Axe so there again 6x shadows is a handy thing to have.

The extra cherry on top of /Nin sub is access to Tonko for getting to sight aggro camps.

So, am I missing something here or in a thread where someone's complaining about dying a lot wouldn't /Nin at any level past 24 make a lot of sense to recommend?

With DWI, a /nin doesn't put anything on the table that a Gax can't match or better. DWII closes the gap, and having Shadows to help the WHM (no need to heal DD's after AoE) also puts forward a stronger argument.

If you find your self pulling hate off your tank too much, get a better one.

He has far more important reasons for dying then his sub job. To simply say "Sub /nin" without first addressing the other issues is not only irresponsible, but it's also stupid. Subbing NIN also makes an already weak race (TaruTaru) even more of a push over for mobs if he doesn't have shadows up.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: oh my god

So, am I missing something here or in a thread where someone's complaining about dying a lot wouldn't /Nin at any level past 24 make a lot of sense to recommend?

1. OP didn't have NIN.
2. OP's multi-death day apparently was due mostly out to bad luck.
3. /NIN doesn't help enough with (solo) tanking compared to /MNK, and at those levels WAR's are expected to tank frequently.

Before Lv.30, WAR/NIN is terrific for dual tanking, and is probably a slightly better DD than WAR/MNK if using one-handed axe. However, WAR/MNK is still the preferred solo tank, and WAR/NIN doesn't measure up to WAR/DRG for DD, especially when using two-handed axe.

If survivability while acting the DD is the only concern, then, yes, of course /NIN is the best for a WAR--next to having a good tank and healer(s).

[Mhurron]

Re: oh my god

Thank you for the helper guys. I'm surprised you didn't laugh at the equipment I had

I'll laugh if it makes you feel better.

[Slip]

Re: oh my god

With DWI, a /nin doesn't put anything on the table that a Gax can't match or better. DWII closes the gap, and having Shadows to help the WHM (no need to heal DD's after AoE) also puts forward a stronger argument.

Having shadows so the Whm doesn't need to heal a DD starts at 24, and as for G Axe, there's no reason you can't use G Axe as a War/Nin either, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

The real trade off you're looking at is G Axe + Shadows vs G Axe + a tiny amount of Str, HP and Boost. From what I've seen the difference is minimal at best at levels 20-30.

If you find your self pulling hate off your tank too much, get a better one.

My tank's fine. As a War I can pull hate off *any* tank for a brief while if I let loose. So my choice is a.) be a gimp DD and hold back so that the tank can keep hate or b.) find a way to mitigate the effect of occasionally getting hit. If Monk's Dodge JA was worth a damn that'd be a great answer too but sadly the SE Devs have decided that it's ok for /Nin to offer a broken level of damage mitigation but not for any other job to as well.

He has far more important reasons for dying then his sub job. To simply say "Sub /nin" without first addressing the other issues is not only irresponsible, but it's also stupid. Subbing NIN also makes an already weak race (TaruTaru) even more of a push over for mobs if he doesn't have shadows up.

Yeah, advice shouldn't end with "just sub /Nin, you'll be fine". That's completely different however from saying "never sub Nin, except maybe at 50". Before 50 /Nin has plenty to offer. What I'm objecting to is the idea that somehow DW2 is magically so much more wonderful than DW1 that it suddenly makes /Nin a useful sub at 50. An extra 5% delay reduction is not that staggering a deal.

What matters a lot more than DW2, is getting 2 Viking Axes with their insane +Acc at 48. That's what makes War/Nin's really shine at that level.

As for the original poster not having /Nin, that's fine. There's no reason that among the advice offered to him the idea of using /Nin for DDing once he hits 30 and can unlock it needs to be ruled out though.

The "No /Nin before 50" mantra that gets spit out so much makes it seem like that would be actively wrong, when in reality /Nin is a useful tool in a War's arsenal at many levels. /Mnk is too, and so is /Drg, each for different uses.

[Celeal]

Re: oh my god

Subjob choice goes with party setup and tactics. Choose the one that make sense. WAR/MNK can be great, so do WAR/NIN.

If the party setup is NIN/WAR, mage x 2, DD/NIN, DD/NIN, and WAR, it make a lot of sense for the WAR/NIN as DD + backup tank.

If the WAR is a tank and the party as a lot of healing power, debuffing and mp recovery, WAR/MNK tank works.

WAR/NIN can solo tank too if the mob is slow hitting and tank friendly (like Carb) and there is a BRD for Elergy + mage for Slow/Paralyze/Stun.

When partying as a WAR, please do not play it in auto-pilot mode. Even WAR/THF or WAR/SAM can be great.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: oh my god

I'm levelling my WAR in a 3 person static which consists of:
WAR/MNK Hume (me)
RDM/WHM Elvaan
RDM/DRK Mithra
All level 53 atm.

... as the solo tank it is almost impossible to get consistent shadows off, and we all love wasting all that time casting only to be interrupted right near the end, eh?

When I solo tank, whether or not I can consistently get shadows back up depended largely on my support. Are your two RDM buddies making sure key debuffs stick and stay? By key, I mean stuff like Slow and Para. If you still can't get Ichi timing down with Slow and Para on the mob... well, maybe you should hold off /NIN tanking until BRDs have elegy.

[TehTyr]

Re: oh my god

Having shadows so the Whm doesn't need to heal a DD starts at 24, and as for G Axe, there's no reason you can't use G Axe as a War/Nin either, the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

The real trade off you're looking at is G Axe + Shadows vs G Axe + a tiny amount of Str, HP and Boost. From what I've seen the difference is minimal at best at levels 20-30.

Not so minimal for a Taru-Taru.

And yes, you can still use Gax with /nin, but what's the point? If you're going Gax, you can sub better jobs to up your damage out put.

My tank's fine. As a War I can pull hate off *any* tank for a brief while if I let loose. So my choice is a.) be a gimp DD and hold back so that the tank can keep hate or b.) find a way to mitigate the effect of occasionally getting hit. If Monk's Dodge JA was worth a damn that'd be a great answer too but sadly the SE Devs have decided that it's ok for /Nin to offer a broken level of damage mitigation but not for any other job to as well.

Tanks can "Go all out" too, you know.

Personally, I've never had a problem with Dodge. Sure it isn't a "OMG PERFECT DODGE IN A JA!", but it's a nice enough bonus to take a little of the heat off the healers. Focus is awesome though.

Yeah, advice shouldn't end with "just sub /Nin, you'll be fine". That's completely different however from saying "never sub Nin, except maybe at 50". Before 50 /Nin has plenty to offer. What I'm objecting to is the idea that somehow DW2 is magically so much more wonderful than DW1 that it suddenly makes /Nin a useful sub at 50. An extra 5% delay reduction is not that staggering a deal.

What matters a lot more than DW2, is getting 2 Viking Axes with their insane +Acc at 48. That's what makes War/Nin's really shine at that level.

I was never saying "Never sub /nin before", so please don't try and alter the perception of my posts.

In a party where you can bring everything a ninja has to offer to the table, like a LS party (see first post *cough*), it's a great sub and everything is happy with the world. However, if you'll be levelling in pub parties all the way, IMO, you'd be safer as /mnk. There are also situations where a /mnk is vastly more useful then /nin.

Also, the idea of two viking axes was kind of assumed... this -is- a warrior forum, right?

As for the original poster not having /Nin, that's fine. There's no reason that among the advice offered to him the idea of using /Nin for DDing once he hits 30 and can unlock it needs to be ruled out though.

It never was.

The "No /Nin before 50" mantra that gets spit out so much makes it seem like that would be actively wrong, when in reality /Nin is a useful tool in a War's arsenal at many levels. /Mnk is too, and so is /Drg, each for different uses.

It's a mantra that pales in comparison to the "You should sub nin". 90% of the time, the people offering the /nin advise are doing so -only- because every one else has -told- them that it's the proper way to go.

IMO, I see no advantage to subbing nin until 50, for many reasons, including DWII. Sure, the shadows are nice, but there aren't many mobs that it'll come in -real- handy. It's pretty safe to say that after the first level break, things start hitting harder, your tanks start getting their AF gear, and the gap between DD and tank widens.

You also summed it up pretty well; /nin is a tool. A single tool in a very large tool box that is the WAR job. Over stating it's importance is what gets people to start rejecting WAR invites just because they aren't /nin.

When I solo tank, whether or not I can consistently get shadows back up depended largely on my support. Are your two RDM buddies making sure key debuffs stick and stay? By key, I mean stuff like Slow and Para. If you still can't get Ichi timing down with Slow and Para on the mob... well, maybe you should hold off /NIN tanking until BRDs have elegy.

All the mobs are enfeebled at all times. Like I said, consistency is the big thing. Drives me crazy getting the timing down pat, only to get some ant using Sand Trap, or a gobbie to use goblin rush, etc. Last time I subbed /nin though, I went through some 600 tools in a few levels and no one died, so I don't think my timing needs -that- much work.
(Mind you, in the last 3 levels as /mnk, no one has died either, so...)

To be quite honest, since the RDM/WHM is staying out of battle and has Refresh/Dark Staff/Tranquil Mind/Ginger Cookies/Convert, MP is less of an issue then it use to be. So much so, that the second RDM usually has near full MP by the end of the battle. The problem lies with the fact that if I sub a /nin, the amount of dmg I take goes up, so I am forced to Shadow my self, if I am constantly shadowing my self, then suddenly our party only has a RDM and half of a WAR doing dmg. /mnk allows me to take acceptable dmg, while also allowing me to focus on putting out as much dmg as I can.
(Counter with Gax, Double Attack with Gax, nothing beats sturmwind till at least 55, meat instead of fish, etc.)

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about BRD wise... by static, I mean it's the three of us, and no one else. The reason for this is simple; the RDM/WHM is my Sister, and the RDM/DRK is my Mum. So keeping them alive is a very risky business indeed.
(And you lot think you have it hard when a LS member dies, HA!)

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: oh my god

Also, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about BRD wise... by static, I mean it's the three of us, and no one else. The reason for this is simple; the RDM/WHM is my Sister, and the RDM/DRK is my Mum. So keeping them alive is a very risky business indeed.
(And you lot think you have it hard when a LS member dies, HA!)

Ah. When I read "static with 3", I thought you meant you 3 always start the party and fill up with 3 pick-up members. For what you're doing, I'm more used to hearing "Trio" than "static". Or perhaps "static trio" would be more precise.

[Celeal]

Re: oh my god

I had a few parties between level 50 ~ 60 as DD using WAR/MNK. Alternate between Aggressor and Focus with attack food is awesome for low IT mob ^o^! It works well when Focus or Aggressor yields enough acc+ to hit the exp mob, works well with both G.Axe or Shield + Axe.

I had tanked in one party as WAR/MNK at level 58. Unfortunately, it does not work well for me. Maybe it is the pickup party setup, or me/party members did not prepared for WAR/MNK tank style, i don't know. However, to me WAR/MNK is a solid tank:
1. Attack food + Defender all time + Defensive gear = decent damage migration with decent damage output.
2. Alternate between Focus and Aggressor/Dodge = accuracy buff at all time. Focus 2 minutes out of 5 minutes, while Aggressor 3 minutes out of 5 minutes, and Dodge covers the Aggressor's evasion lost.
3. Good old Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Provoke... counter.
4. WAR AF for tanking.

However, for sushi build, i would use war/nin (Axe) or war/sam (G.Axe)

[Sevv]

Re: oh my god

PLEASE do not tell him this. There's already enough Warriors in the game going /NIN at his level when /MNK is superior for both tanking and damage. The fact that he's a Tarutaru might be part of the problem.
If he's tanking, better gears and party support and if doing damage, hate management are the resolutions to his problem...not shadows.

your gonna outdamage me with an axe war/mnk to war/nin? lol /nin is for those who want to use one handed weapons as well as those who pull alot of hate.

hell when i solo rng nms as drg i sub /nin due to eagle shot and i am still able to use healing breath.

now if he wants to use great axe or other 2handed weapons /thf @ 30 and /sam @60 are the way to go.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: oh my god

your gonna outdamage me with an axe war/mnk to war/nin? lol /nin is for those who want to use one handed weapons as well as those who pull alot of hate.

OP uses two-handed axe, BTW. ^_^;

now if he wants to use great axe or other 2handed weapons /thf @ 30 and /sam @60 are the way to go.

It's easy to become an MP sponge with WAR/THF at Lv.30+; SA + Sturmwind is very difficult to resist, and the average tank players simply won't be able to hold the monsters if the second hit is a critical hit as well or if Double Attack proc'ed when Berserk is up.

With /DRG (and that latent earring), it's 4% haste, which means 4% more DoT and 4% more TP over time, while Jump + big axe = nice TP and damage. This is easier to walk the hate line with, I think, without losing ground on damage.

WAR/SAM actually looks like a decent combination, even at Lv.30. Zanshin and Store TP are helpful on the damage front, while Third Eye just before Sturmwind or Warcry will lessen the risks.

Of course, all the above were about DD'ing; WAR/MNK for solo tanking and WAR/NIN for duo tanking are the way to go if not DD'ing.

Edit:

I had tanked in one party as WAR/MNK at level 58. Unfortunately, it does not work well for me. Maybe it is the pickup party setup, or me/party members did not prepared for WAR/MNK tank style, i don't know.

Hmm. What was the level difference between the party and the monsters? I'm going to guess that WAR/MNK is actually a better tank for VT than IT monsters, especially using the attack food + defender style.

Even on PLD, fighting IT monsters comfortably requires Defender at times, and my PLD is always on defense food during exp parties. I can't imagine a WAR/MNK after Lv.40 to be having an easy time tanking IT's alone.

[Celeal]

Re: oh my god

Edit:
Hmm. What was the level difference between the party and the monsters? I'm going to guess that WAR/MNK is actually a better tank for VT than IT monsters, especially using the attack food + defender style.

Even on PLD, fighting IT monsters comfortably requires Defender at times, and my PLD is always on defense food during exp parties. I can't imagine a WAR/MNK after Lv.40 to be having an easy time tanking IT's alone.

It has been a while since that party, I could not remember what was the party setup. We were at the Gusval Tunnel (spelling*) exp-ing on Carbs (and Goblin, if it is in the way and could not avoided).

In theory it can be done, that is why I tried WAR/MNK tank at that party. However, I guess the entire party (including myself) was not prepared: I feel very awkward to main tank as WAR/MNK since I have not do it for 20+ levels. From the support I seen in that party, I bet that the rest of the party had never work with WAR/MNK tank since the Dunes.

My conclusion is practice is required. If the player does not party with WAR/MNK tank for many levels (lvl 30+), when situation is need for the player to support a WAR/MNK, the player would not have the experience or skill to work with the WAR/MNK in those levels.

P.S.
For MP sponge with WAR/THF at Lv.30+, I would also say practice is required. For the first few try in parties as WAR/THF at lvl 30+, it is the MP sponge very easily. The more WAR/THF to practice, the more experience and knowledge for WAR/THF to ride the hate. I had use WAR/THF exclusively from level 42 to 48. It is true that I pull hate with SA + Sturmwind, however, it does not matter if you make sure the mob dies within 10 or 20 seconds afterwards.

[Lmnop]

Re: oh my god

Hmm what do you know? This thread became a SJ debate.

I solo tanked as war/nin @38 with a great party. I duo tanked as war/nin 40-41 with a great party. War/nin has its uses pre-50. But War/mnk is reliable. I solo tanked as war/mnk umm.... all over the place. And every time I had a party that would let me, I vastly preferred it to my time as war/nin.

the "no war/nin to 50" is a statement of averages. 48, 50, and 55 are the big levels. I don't think I have to spell out what comes at those 3 levels anymore, but the idea is that it won't be great (for DD) until some, if not all, of those conditions are met.

No blanket statements, guys. War/nin is just a tool. Don't be a tool, 'cuz then you're just a KI snob. Be a Warrior instead and be ready for anything.

[Slip]

Re: oh my god

I was never saying "Never sub /nin before", so please don't try and alter the perception of my posts.

IMO, I see no advantage to subbing nin until 50, for many reasons, including DWII.

And I'm altering perceptions of your post how again?

I think on the overall topic of /nin vs /mnk vs /sam vs /thf we're going to have to agree to disagree. I see all of them being useful depending on the role you need to play, LS party or not, over a wider range of levels than you seem to.

[Sevv]

Re: oh my god

i had nin unlocked when i dinged 30 so i made the switch i still tank on my war at 64 with /nin lol aht urghan mobs rock =P