Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Ok, here's why i think /mnk is very superior Hearshot.

At 45, you gain aggresor from the main class.
At 50, you gain focus, both used in conjunction can lead to a never ending of accuracy up. I fail to see where ninja beats this out.

(Standard reply).....but we gots shadows...... And duel axes.....

So before, (and really after 50) do you think your hitting much faster than a great axe, enough to really make a difference?

And so what you get rampage alittle bit sooner than ragin rush, but I could use axe and shield, and nearly do as much damage as you.

So.... I have Counter, Boost, Dodge, what do you have to help Ohhhh wait, /nin has no job abilities. Only spells in which you have to pay for, and that are gimped as a sub that are pretty well useless.

And besides, If you have a good tank you'll never need those shadows, and if you need them for pulling at those levels still...... well you might not wanna consider standing right next to the enemy when you pull, you know i thought it was a ranged attack.

But the facts have been so scewed, that It's hard to find a party as a War/mnk, or War/thf at 30, waiting 10 hours for a party just to be invited back to the jungle is not my idea of fun.

Yes, i'm a wee bit pissed at the fact, i have to go back and level ninja, just so I can level warrior 7 more levels. Just so I can get back to Paladin.

[eikichi]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

How many of you actually have WAR post-50? Yeah, WAR is a good tank in dunes. But, for those in the jungles. PLD is a better tank than WAR hands down. If your PLD tank is losing hate constantly to a WAR, then something is obviously wrong. If you're intentionally trying to rip hate, you should PT with my monk sometime. I can guarantee you I can rip hate off the majority of tanks if I really wanted. As far as weapons, G.Axe and Axe only. Maybe swords on the off-chance you get a Joy-toy and/or Ridill.
Having a single WAR tank post-30 will slow down your PT, drastically. The mp consumed to cure the WAR, especially if you keep berserk up the whole time, is a strain.
Conclusion: WAR is not a good tank post-30. /nin or /thf only. If someone asked me to tank I would seriously question the PT setup. /mnk offers some damage, but big numbers come from /thf and /nin.

**Edit**
Do you guys just look at spike damage or DoT?
/thf = best spike dmg with G.Axe
/nin = best DoT/spike

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

How many of you actually have WAR post-50? Yeah, WAR is a good tank in dunes. But, for those in the jungles. PLD is a better tank than WAR hands down. If your PLD tank is losing hate constantly to a WAR, then something is obviously wrong. If you're intentionally trying to rip hate, you should PT with my monk sometime. I can guarantee you I can rip hate off the majority of tanks if I really wanted. As far as weapons, G.Axe and Axe only. Maybe swords on the off-chance you get a Joy-toy and/or Ridill.
Having a single WAR tank post-30 will slow down your PT, drastically. The mp consumed to cure the WAR, especially if you keep berserk up the whole time, is a strain.
Conclusion: WAR is not a good tank post-30. /nin or /thf only. If someone asked me to tank I would seriously question the PT setup. /mnk offers some damage, but big numbers come from /thf and /nin.

**Edit**
Do you guys just look at spike damage or DoT?
/thf = best spike dmg with G.Axe
/nin = best DoT/spike

Not to mention, Counter, as rare as it will kick in /mnk, will only work if you are tanking. A rare counter, and sub-par boost do not warrant mnk as a rival DD to /thf or /nin.

Lets sum up your career as a 30-75 War in successful well-rounded parties:

A. You will be SATA partner. There IS a dedicated tank in the party, there IS a 30+THF with SATA in the party. You may or may not be invloved in the SC, but that Mob needs to turn his back to the tank for the THF to land SATA. In these 2-3 seconds of your provoke, you are taking.... Shadow... Shadow... maybe one more shadow if the THF is slow, then bam its not on you anymore! No cures for you, continue the XP. As a /nin you are also able to Off-hand a nice Stat weapon, one that adds ACC or ATK or STR.

B. You are in a party where you can afford to dish out high DMG(war/thf30-59). You bring your great axe and Sneak Attack WS as you please. (war/thf60-75) You are, essentially, the "Thf" administering DMG+SATA hate control.

C. You get an invite to a party wanting you to tank. Many leaders make a big error in this choice, depending on the level of the party. Slow swinging mobs and a beefy party setup can make this work. Subbing Ninja brings the most benefits, reguardless of what jobs you have in the party.

D. You are 73WAR being asked to XP in KRT. You can... (1) bring your axes for all-mighty Rampage or start Light with Decimation... (2) bring Great axe for Raging Rush or End Darkness with Steel Cyclone (probably not a good idea in KRT).... or (3) Attempt to make use of that all mighty Monk sub and undercapped Hand to Hand to put on some sub-par damage.




Its quite obvious, 30+ the only things a warrior *needs* is Axe+NIN, GreatAxe+THF. If you are using Sword, when are you going to skill up your axe and great axe? And why take time out of lvling 1-30War by lvling 3 Sub Jobs instead of 2?

[Celeal]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

...
At 45, you gain aggresor from the main class.
At 50, you gain focus, both used in conjunction can lead to a never ending of accuracy up. I fail to see where ninja beats this out.
...

I personally tried lvl 50 ~ 52 WAR/MNK DD aggresor + focus cycle in one XP party. The hit rate for WAR/MNK shield + Viking Axe with Focus alone is about the same with WAR/NIN dual Viking Axes. But in that party I dies couples of time when I pulled hate from link to save the mages when sleep was resisted.

I may try WAR/MNK again in the next party, if the party does not mind me to sub mnk.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

focus can be offset by equipment and food. A hate-stealing /nin is far more useful to the party than a hate-stealing /mnk. Shadows shed hate. If you aren't provoking, the tank should be able to get it back off of you in time.

And doesn't the fact that you died because you took hate as a war/mnk warrant enough proof to why war/mnk is a bad tank? lol

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Wow, by that train of thought Hearshot, when a blm takes hate after a mb, they must be the worst mage ever if they die.

(and i mean this in the sense that they where DD not tanking)

And besides, with the focus/agressor cycle you can eat meat, to push your damage even further. I still fail to see how ninja is superior.

And besides, when you take hate you use defender, you know cause thats what its there for

(And besides, war/mnk was tanking everything along time before /nin was around, and even then people didn't even use nin untill they realized the brokeness of utsusemi)

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Wow, by that train of thought Hearshot, when a blm takes hate after a mb, they must be the worst mage ever if they die.

You can blame the party for that one, MBs should take off the tail of a mob, in a party with a weak tank. I make the assumption you are in a party with people who know what they're doing. My point in that, is that if Monk is such a noteable tank SJ after 30, why can't a 50 or so War manage, much less survive taking hate if this job combo comes with such natural ability?

And besides, with the focus/agressor cycle you can eat meat, to push your damage even further. I still fail to see how ninja is superior.

And besides, when you take hate you use defender, you know cause thats what its there for

(And besides, war/mnk was tanking everything along time before /nin was around, and even then people didn't even use nin untill they realized the brokeness of utsusemi)

Before nin and pld were around, you were expected to wear AF and lvl cap was 60. Defender was more useful then.

How many pieces of AF are remotely useful for a warrior today? Hands have STR *BUT* Enmity, boo to that. Feet are debateable in having noticeable doubleattack enhancement. STR endgame is better. Legs can be offset by food/better gear.

9/10 doctors agree.... war/nin is less of a hassle to cure in a party where he is not tanking (which should be every party in 2006, post 30)

We're not in 2002.

[eikichi]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Not to mention, Aggressor -drops- your evasion. And if you have /mnk and are ripping hate like you say, you'll be getting hit. ALOT. Stack that on top of berserk which would most likely be up, you'll be in red in no time. You say, "that's what Defender is for". You'd still be getting hit harder than your tank would. /nin gives you the ability to keep aggressor + berserk up w/o the worry of getting into the red as fast /mnk.
You are looking at the /ja's on paper w/o actually getting war past Yhoator. Sure, it -may- look good to you on paper. But the fact is that it's not a very bright idea.
And like Hearshot says, gear will compensate for w/e you're lacking in. Missing too much? Get some sole sushi and some +acc gear. If you're wanting to be the best at whatever job you're playing, I'm thinking you would take the necessary steps to make it better than that other WAR seeking.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Yeah, we're not in 2002

were in 2006 where everone duel wields, hides behind shadows for safety, and thinks that /nin is the ultimate subjob.

Blm: they do it, cause they don't like taking damage.
Blu: Most of them do it for spell spamming good times, with 2 weapons (a good 60% of blus on my server are /nin)
Brds: can duo tank an HNM going /nin
Bsts: do it for less down time
Cor: Ive seen alot of people /nin (nearly 40% the other is /rng and /whm)
Drg: (well to tell you the truth I've never heard this one, but still with how it is today I wouldn't doubt it)
Drk: do i need to say any more, Jugernaut+Ridill ftw, or Ridill+Kraken
Mnk: not taking any damage, while doing awesome damage
Pld: Ohhh boy everyone wants enrage so we can sub /nin the entire game
Pup: Never heard or seen this one, but wouldn't doubt it...
Rng: Glass cannons of FFXI, but not with /nin (and thats why they got nerfed)
Rdm: when i see a rdm/nin in my party in the crawlers nest >< yea.....
Sam: Heard about this one
Smn: Once again, wouldnt doubt it ><
Thf: /nin 24+ for pulling from 3 feet away
War: Nearly everone 30+ till the 60s, then you can sub thf occasionaly (and heck evertime a war/nin passes through the dunes, Promathia cries)
Whm: 2 darksteel mauls ftw

(note the sarcasm)

But still, i mean /nin may work great endgame, but that doesnt mean i have to suffer through the dunes, with /nin warriors thinking they're the best thing since sliced bread

And for the person who posted after, i know what the job abilities do, my monk is 40, unfortunatly going /mnk is looked down upon becuase it doesn't have utsusemi and 2 weapons, and doesnt cost 50k to maintain every party.

Agressor is a 25 accuracy boost
Focus is a 20 accuracy boost
Dodge is a 20 evasion boost

And besides, the -eva can be countered by Dodge for 2 out of the 3 minutes

You know I see all these people spouting off how great /nin is, but its taken the challenge out of the game, its rips the enjoyment out of it. Cause you know the only reason nin is so popular is becuase of the shadows, its the most selfish subjob in the game.

Cause back in 2002 and on, this game was about skill as a job, now it's about how much money you can throw at a job

And as for duel wield, everone says it looks cool, but it doens't really do much till 50, even then...

Other subjobs offer actual abilities, what does /nin give a person?

And a funny example of /nin superiorness, in quicksand caves, he did rampage when he had one shadow left, the spider hit one of his shadows and did sickle slash, and one shotted him.

(Well the point of this thread was to help the OP, the OP has not been back to this thread for quite some time now, because he is looking into other jobs. I suggest we let it go, or make a new thread)

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

First of all Aggressor is not 25 Accuracy Bonus, its more like 10ACC. This shows your lack of knowledge about the job. Don't spread rumors.

You appear to be a bitter paladin refuting the mass-use of nin and /nin by everyone and their mother in this game.

Lets look at FACTS instead of fiction, about Ninja the Sub Job.

Dual Wield Trait 1: lvl 10NIN, lvl 20JOB/NIN. Allows dual wield, both weapons are added together for full weapon delay. This first trait is useful all the way to endgame for the SOLE purpose of being able to off-hand a statistically beneficial weapon. Rangers offhand RACC, Thieves can offhand DEX,STR,AGI,etc,etc, Warriors offhand ACC,STR,Multihit Weapons, etc. This is the use of Dual Wield1.

Utsusemi: Ichi lvl 12NIN, lvl 24JOB/NIN: Each shadow, subbed, is absorbed by the same things a Main'd Ninja's Shadows are. Recasts are the same as well. The only difference is Ninja Utsu: Ni is 4 shadows, while a 74JOB/nin is 3 shadows. The main feature is the ability to absorb attacks with shadows, pretty straight forward.

Dual Wield Trait 2: lvl25NIN, lvl 50JOB/NIN. Enhances Dual Wield Effect. "Melee Haste" per weapon 7.5%. Sure this doesn't seem like a lot, but people pay millions for haste gear. DoubleAttack and Dual Wield 2 shine together. (NIN Dual Wield4 is 25%)


This argument isn't whether /nin is better than subbing something else, i think this speaks for itself. The original issue is what is most beneficial to sub to Warrior? What jobs/weapons can you skip entirely? But while we're on the subject of other SJ's usefulness:
Counter is only useful when you are getting hit. You won't be getting a whole lot, much less enough to get counter to kick in. HP boost is not enough to be offset by a single IT mob swipe to the face. Focus sounds nice, but i balance maintaining a safer party against it. Add up what you lose against what you gain. Without /nin, you lose a substantial defense as a warrior. /drk? lets not go there. /SAM? Gain a small amount of TP just so you can waste it on an SC thats already going to happen?

If you are so bewildered by the use of /nin in this game, go lvl it yourself and come back. Not to mention, get Warrior past 30 then raise a legitimate argument in a Warrior Forum.

And Cor, Blu, and Pup are still in early stages. They didn't go through YEARS of speculation like warrior, thief, and other jobs.

[eikichi]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Blm: they do it, cause they don't like taking damage.
Blu: Most of them do it for spell spamming good times, with 2 weapons (a good 60% of blus on my server are /nin)
Brds: can duo tank an HNM going /nin
Bsts: do it for less down time
Cor: Ive seen alot of people /nin (nearly 40% the other is /rng and /whm)
Drg: (well to tell you the truth I've never heard this one, but still with how it is today I wouldn't doubt it)
Drk: do i need to say any more, Jugernaut+Ridill ftw, or Ridill+Kraken
Mnk: not taking any damage, while doing awesome damage
Pld: Ohhh boy everyone wants enrage so we can sub /nin the entire game
Pup: Never heard or seen this one, but wouldn't doubt it...
Rng: Glass cannons of FFXI, but not with /nin (and thats why they got nerfed)
Rdm: when i see a rdm/nin in my party in the crawlers nest >< yea.....
Sam: Heard about this one
Smn: Once again, wouldnt doubt it ><
Thf: /nin 24+ for pulling from 3 feet away
War: Nearly everone 30+ till the 60s, then you can sub thf occasionaly (and heck evertime a war/nin passes through the dunes, Promathia cries)
Whm: 2 darksteel mauls ftw
(note the sarcasm)

Ok, I note your sarcasm. Now let me try to make it seem more -realistic- to you.

BLM: would get kicked out of PTs for going /nin. It gives them no benefit in what other subs can give them(/whm or /rdm).

BLU: too most, this is also considered a DD. /nin or /thf would give them more potential for dmg.

BRD: only time i've seen /nin is when they solo. And that there is a totally different topic.
BST: also another DD class. Personally, I /whm for the -na's and erase. Considered a solo job, so w/e makes the user happy.

COR: /nin post-28 does help alot. Dual-wield Archer's Knife for that extra r.acc and agi. /rng adds accuracy as a job trait. and /whm for backup curing.

DRG: i dunno about anyone else, but if i saw a drg /nin i would definitley find out why he was /nin. I see no benefits from /nin for drg.

DRK: you're right, but how many drk's do you see with either of those weapon combinations? I've never come across a /nin in an xp, or any other situation.

MNK: /nin is good for tp burns to reduce downtime when you're trying to get the most xp/hr.

PLD: honestly, I don't know so I won't say anything about this. (That's right, if I don't know what I'm talking about I leave it as that)

PUP: majority of PUPs I've seen normally go /mnk or /thf

RNG: ok.. you shouldn't say things you have no experience with. I go /nin for the stats of my off-hand(Woodville main, franny off-hand) when I go xp. During gods/HNMs, some still go /nin, while others /war. Nothing worst than whiffing the whole time. Which all boils down to the added stat from the off-hand. I don't melee even though I /nin, but that extra r.acc and r.atk is ALOT better than subbing something else. Sure I won't be doing as much dmg as a /war, but I can keep up with them and sometimes others in the PT. And pre-nerf RNG still outdmg'd the majority of jobs, even WITH /nin. Why? because I've been playing RNG pre- and post- nerf. So don't tell me otherwise unless you have done both.

RDM: /nin makes jesus cry in PTs... Good for solo, but nothnx to PT

SAM: read "MNK"

SMN: lie

THF: /nin is beneficial because of shadows and the dual-wield effect. maybe /war depending on situations. Would a thf pull raptors /war? Hell no, unless he's crazy and want's to raise evasion and die. /nin or /war plz. situational only.

WAR: dual-wield with /nin. SATA with /thf post-60. I still fail to see how /mnk offers more than what the other two subs bring. (BTW, dodge will not raise your evasion noticably higher than w/o out.)

WHM: solo. and I've seen them dual-wielding DS Mauls. Hexastrike is godly for them.

[piroko]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Personally, a great axe would be more benificial until 48 (viking axe) or 50 (DW2). A great axe's delay is around high 400s to low 500s where as a single axe is 260+ to low 300s. Until level 50, you'll be slower than a great axe. That's one pro.

SA Strumwind is killer. That's my second.

But it's all the setup and what people are looking for. If you're the 2nd voker for a party then /NIN would be safer but otherwise, I would sub THF past 30.

/MNK is an amazing tank from 1-30. I used a Neckchopper and tanked everything up to 30 when I started taking too much damage from goblins. Provoking and boosting at every opptournity gives you -a lot- of hate. No one could rip hate from me... which wasn't great when I was dying, but I guess I did a good job. Oh, you can Boost > WS for more hate as well.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Personally, a great axe would be more benificial until 48 (viking axe) or 50 (DW2). A great axe's delay is around high 400s to low 500s where as a single axe is 260+ to low 300s. Until level 50, you'll be slower than a great axe. That's one pro.

Well in most cases, Longer delay equates to a higher DMG rating on the weapon. Keep in mind, 260x2 (dualwield1 before 50) is 520 Delay. After 50, 260x2 comes out as around 440.

But TP return is completely different, TP is based on post-dual wield calculation, so while you are swinging faster than you were at 49 with the same axes, you may get LESS tp per hit than you were before. BUT swinging faster at 50 with dualwield2 does bring on more Double Attack opportunities, there is a TP gain right there. (and a difference of maybe 1tp from the TP-Floor penalty)

[Armando]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

And doesn't the fact that you died because you took hate as a war/mnk warrant enough proof to why war/mnk is a bad tank? lol

There wasn't enough info in that anecdote to jump to that conclusion. Anyone can die in a situation where the party is actually fighting two IT mobs at a time. Also note that Celeal was DD'ing, not tanking.

First of all Aggressor is not 25 Accuracy Bonus, its more like 10ACC.

I'll take the tests that showed it to be 25 Acc over a claim with no foundation such as "it's more like 10 Acc." Especially when noone will probably bother to confirm it either way.

Lets look at FACTS instead of fiction, about Ninja the Sub Job.

This shows your lack of knowledge about the job. Don't spread rumors.

The facts you posted are wrong. That aside, I feel that personal attack was unnecessary, especially when you yourself don't know your facts. On top of that, it's a moot point. I know more facts about this game than most people, yet in the time I've been playing there have been many people that have taken multiple jobs to 75 and cleared RoZ and CoP completely, and have far more game experience than I can hope to get.

Well in most cases, Longer delay equates to a higher DMG rating on the weapon. Keep in mind, 260x2 (dualwield1 before 50) is 520 Delay. After 50, 260x2 comes out as around 440.

Dual Weild I is a 10% Delay reduction and DWII is 15%; a pair of typical axes (276 Delay) comes out at 496 Delay at DWI and 469 at DWII.

But TP return is completely different, TP is based on post-dual wield calculation, so while you are swinging faster than you were at 49 with the same axes, you may get LESS tp per hit than you were before. BUT swinging faster at 50 with dualwield2 does bring on more Double Attack opportunities, there is a TP gain right there. (and a difference of maybe 1tp from the TP-Floor penalty)

Each Double Attack you do while Dual Weilding will also give less TP per hit, so while you do more Double Attacks, they're for less TP. The ONLY innate increase in TP gain you get from Dual Weilding comes from the extra delay-free hit you get when you first engage a mob, but that's often cancelled out by the fact that if you whiff the last hit needed to go over 100 TP, then you'll have to wait twice as long. Dual Weild will only truly give you a TP advantage if your off-hand weapon has Accuracy, Haste, or multi-hits, or if your average post-DW Delay is significantly under 180.

I have to concur with Piroko, while Utsusemi is very handy, I'd pick Great Axe over axes pre-48 any day, even as /NIN. Maybe I'd pick dual axes if I were to use a pair of C.C. Axes +2, but meh, -40 Evasion for the mob or -25% Defense is just so much more useful. It takes a lot of raw damage to compensate for the awesome power of breaks, and quite frankly, dual axes won't perform significantly better than great axe before the 48+ levels (if at all.)

[eikichi]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

I'll take the tests that showed it to be 25 Acc over a claim with no foundation such as "it's more like 10 Acc." Especially when noone will probably bother to confirm it either way.The facts you posted are wrong.

If what you say right, then both assumptions are incorrect and should be voided from the conversation.

I have to concur with Piroko, while Utsusemi is very handy, I'd pick Great Axe over axes pre-48 any day, even as /NIN. Maybe I'd pick dual axes if I were to use a pair of C.C. Axes +2, but meh, -40 Evasion for the mob or -25% Defense is just so much more useful. It takes a lot of raw damage to compensate for the awesome power of breaks, and quite frankly, dual axes won't perform significantly better than great axe before the 48+ levels (if at all.)

If you agree do this, why not /thf? SA+WS is alot more devasting than Boost+WS. And like I said, if you're at that point where the only way you can land a hit is with Aggressor up. Upgrade your gear! There is no reason why you should be missing 85% of the time, unless you're overhunting.



Anyways, all of this was a /derail from what the OP originally wanted to know. If he can just stick with /nin instead of re-lvling mnk and thf. The answer is YES