Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

[lionx]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

I honestly dont know if it is preffered for a reason or just "hot". While duel wielding Axes are cool at lvl 20 there are absolutely no real good Axes imo for the most part until Viking Axes, and even then its debatable vs Shield Break for the entire PT. Only time to sub NIN, is at lvl 24, and dual tanking with another WAR/NIN, or an actual NIN.

Subbing NIN at 20 is pretty retarded IMO, you lose Boost from a MNK sub to tank, and you dont even get the real main reason why people sub NIN pre-rampage...Utsusemi. Even so WARs at low levels tend to be tanks, and i wont invite a WAR/NIN even with Utsusemi to solo tank...they cant keep hate worth much of anything. To me, /THF rocks, you lose nothing like the other jobs who sub THF(Berserk and Double Attack) and you gain whatever they have when subbing THF. However i havent tried it personally although i have pted with WAR/THFs before and they were pretty good. I can only wonder about post 60 WAR/THFs...to me on paper its awesome because you get the Berserk and Dbl Attack, yet you can SATA a bunch of hate to the tank.

There are multiple reasons that i can think of to keep GAxe leveled. Shield Break(-40 Evasion if unresisted), Sturmwind(which outdamages every Axe weapon skill until Rampage i would assume), Armor Break(i THINK -25% DEF), and Raging Rush. Most Axe WSs are weak until Rampage and onward(and i think Mistrel is kinda weak too..or maybe its just the WARs i been pting with ), and dont offer too much to the party that Breaks do imo. Only reason to use Axe is for skillchains.

I am trying to level my Marksmanship for status bolts though, and i feel that is way superior to boomerangs in general. But really...under lvl 55 when they get Rampage...i always look at a WAR/NIN with some skeptism...you never know if they have any other subs availible or if they are any good..especially those who sub NIN in the dunes -_-; They dont help that..

[Celeal]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

To OP, for exp. parties:

WAR/MNK is very good from lvl 10 - 30 for solo tanking. It is really tanking + DD all-in-one.

At lvl 42, 45, 47 I had solo tanking in Crawler's Nest for exp. parties as WAR/MNK (no PLD or NIN seeking when I was in those parties). The mobs were hitting hard, fast, and can double attack per round. I tried different gear and food mix match, the only way I manage to make WAR/MNK solo tank works at that lvl is gear like a PLD (def+/vit+ food, def+/vit+ gear), open battle with Shield Break (in order for me to hit the mob to keep hate, since most gear slot is using defensive gear), have a THF SATA on me to help hate. Without DD food and acc/atk gear, my damage output drops when solo tanking as WAR/MNK.

Although the exp. from those WAR/MNK-main-tanking parties are below average, I have learned a lot from it. However, I may try WAR/MNK solo tank again once my WAR has full AF XD.

As a DD for WAR/MNK, I tried once in lvl 51~52 exp. party (Helm Beetle camp at Crawler's Nest), using aggressor ~ focus cycle w/ attack+ food. Somehow I feel that Focus from WAR/MNK is a lot weaker than MNK/WAR's (my MNK is at lvl 54). WAR/NIN Viking Axe x2 beats WAR/MNK Viking Axe + foucs because of the DW II from /NIN. For Great Axe, WAR/MNK is better than WAR/NIN, but Boost + WS from WAR/MNK is alot weaker than WAR/THF Sneak Attack + WS.

WAR/NIN (after level 24) is very useful when the main tank in the party cannot hold hate well, or the THF is very slow on setting up SATA on tank, or there is no main tank in the party. NIN/WAR + WAR/NIN, WAR/NIN x2, or every melee /NIN burn parties is very good for WAR/NIN.

WAR/THF is very good after level level 30, for Great Axe. Sneak Attack can make a weak WS to do decent damage, a strong WS to even stronger. Sneak Attack + Break WS will make sure it lands on the mob.

Sneak Attack, when used seperately, can be used for TP gain too. TP sitting at 96% and your were whiff-ing the mob? Use Sneak Attack and blam, you are ready for Skillchain. You can also pre-load Sneak Attack when the puller is pulling: When the puller pulls the mob at a distance away from camp, activate sneak attack. Once the mob reach the camp, get behind the mob and use the sneak attack that was charged a moment ago. After 10 or 20 seconds later, your next Sneak Attack timer should be ready again...

I never tried WAR/SAM. Once my WAR reached level 60 I may try it.

I know WAR can benefit from many different subjob, weapons, etc. It is a lot of work, but it is worthed. If time and resource are the constrain, level NIN and THF to lvl 37 as the 1st priority. It is because most job can /NIN or /THF to gain benefit from it.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

when did your DRG become a matter of discussion? O_o

i said war/whm is gimp or war/pup. I didnt even mention the job DRG o_O

...you ok man?

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

NIN and THF, thats it.

[Goldesper]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

NIN and THF, thats it.

MNK at least until 40s can work very, very well at tanking.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

MNK at least until 40s can work very, very well at tanking.

But keep this in mind, Why would you level a sub you won't use after the 40s?

THF and NIN are very capable before (and superior after) the 40s.

For a war starting out, there is no problem going to 30war/thf or 30thf/war tounlock nin and continue war/thf or war/nin.

Starting war/mnk when you want to be an endgame war is pointless.

If you want to be endgame MNK, well thats a different story, this is a War thread so ya. lol

[lionx]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

I would level MNK up to 37 if i was called to tank after 40 though. I dont know how many people still WAR tank(even though its viable), but i certainetly would like to have that option availible instead of sitting there saying i cant tank.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

I would level MNK up to 37 if i was called to tank after 40 though. I dont know how many people still WAR tank(even though its viable), but i certainetly would like to have that option availible instead of sitting there saying i cant tank.

every once in a while you'll get that war tank request in early levels, but subbing nin is the way to go. especially if theres a second war/nin or DD nin in there to help.

If you are below 30 and don't have NIN yet, war/thf before 30 is just as capable as subbing anything else, those levels are such a push-over.

If you are war and want to lvl the fastest with the most necessary jobs, THF and NIN. Lvling MNK to sub to war in xp is like lvling whm to sub to mnk for xp. XP just doesn't need it.

[lionx]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

You could sub whm and be just as an effective war before 30, i agree. this is true for almost any job before 30. My point in this, was that on the road for a beginner going on to be a 37+ warrior to endgame, you want to lvl jobs you will actually use. You will not use mnk the majority of the time, especially endgame. I said war/thf because beyond 30, it is a great DD, and these 2 jobs you started off with, are the exact jobs you are going to use as a Main Job Warrior. Quite Convenient, i'd say.
Great Axe is best used by /thf. Tell a beginner to lvl mnk for no reason at all for the future? they're going to regret it when they are 75. Overall point, /mnk is a waste of time because you will not need it anywhere near the second halfway through all your experience points to lvl 75 ( lvl 65 is the halfway point in xp )

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.

Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.

Actually that comparison doesn't work, because every whm subs smn at 75 for xp and other stuff.
I said mnk/whm because a mnk subs whm for soloing and if they ever want a big Chi Blast for some fun reason.








war/thf tanks just as good before 30... war/thf does plenty of dmg after 30, screw a warrior tank when he can be your DD

... you're going to need /nin forever and ever.... you use /mnk a tenth of the time in your early levels, yet not one person will ask you to sub it for some reason.... i felt like making it simple rule for new warriors lol.

[lionx]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

o_O...

If you are below 30 and don't have NIN yet, war/thf before 30 is just as capable as subbing anything else, those levels are such a push-over.

^ I meant this, subbing MNK gives you better HP and Boost to hold hate. I never invite a WAR/THF to tank infact i would question them if thats what they wanted to do...they cannot hold hate at all. I held hate pretty solid, and i would even argue that its better than PLD at the lower levels as WAR/MNK than a WAR/THF. Seriously what do you get pre 30? Steal. You obviously havent tanked as WAR/MNK...at least thats what it seems. It is more better than what people think.

Actually that comparison doesn't work, because every whm subs smn at 75 for xp and other stuff.
I said mnk/whm because a mnk subs whm this for xp and if they ever want a big Chi Blast for some fun reason.

I actually dont sub SMN, its only lvl 28 to begin with but i wouldnt sub SMN at all unless its carby pull or if Aerial Armor is just that good. I dont find Auto-Refresh to be worth it, and i prefer Conserve MP. Not every WHM subs SMN. I sub BRD if theres no BRD, otherwise BLM unless you have a REAL good reason for me subbing SMN, i wouldnt do it. But does it mean that you arent making yourself more versitile by having more subs to help you?

I personally have never seen a MNK/WHM actually exp, as in actual 6 man exp pts ever. I dont see the point. This really makes me raise an eyebrow.


On that note, WAR/MNK also has Counter, and who says Great Axe isnt better with that? I personally preffered WAR/MNK over /NIN, and only used /NIN when another WAR/NIN was there or NIN/WAR with no Utsusemi Ni. Otherwise if i am tanking, i would sub MNK, and if DD, prefer /THF(at least with GAxe, with Axe and Rampage i would sub NIN).

I dont get the notion of /MNK never getting used. Just because a bunch of people think /NIN is the only way to go doesnt mean that /MNK is useless for other situations as well. That being said /MNK might not be as useful at lvl 74, but that doesnt mean you wont use it before that.

Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

Damage mitigation and holding hate are different things(WAR do have Defender anyway if you want damage mitigation). If you mean that taking less damage is the entire point of tanking, then PLD is obsolete..in which they are not.

And while i agree PLD is made to tank, NIN definetly was not intended to and was not made for that purpose. WAR imo does compete, and what did everyone do before NIN was widely used for tanking? Wait around because PLD monopolized tanking? WAR of course was up there, it just isnt as popular these days. Why else is Defender on WAR? For fun?

And how does WAR/NIN get more Accuracy than /MNK somehow? Outside of dual viking axes, theres also shield break with gaxe.

... you're going to need /nin forever and ever.... you use /mnk a tenth of the time in your early levels, yet not one person will ask you to sub it for some reason.... i felt like making it simple rule for new warriors lol.

Pre 20, if you sub NIN i am NOT going to invite you..in fact i will totally reject you and wonder your skill...theres nothing /NIN even gives you at that time, and i only really like it post 24 with you get Utsusemi to dual tank.


Anyway...if you dont want to level MNK thats fine with me, but i prefer if someone wants to have more options availible to level it up too. I hate to wait for a PLD or NIN to show up when theres none when theres a WAR perfectly able to tank...yet either not want to tank because they "cant" or they do a shoddy job of it(at least pre 74...without Ni or a BRD). However its your choice for what subs you want to level.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

aside from a few typos, (i mean monk subs whm to solo not xp)

Having played this game for 3 years or so, i've figured out what the most efficient way to lvl is. Not that it takes that long though.

Question: what jobs should i level?
My opinion: Only level the jobs you will be using later in the game. A nice rule i'd go by is this......

What will i need to sub at 60? war/mnk doesn't exist.

Lionx: you are right about pre-20 nins, and pre-30 wars and such, but realistically, these level ranges play a VERY small amount of time in your career as a warrior. In the end, you will be glad you have the required jobs leveled, but you may also be content with JUST leveling those "Required" jobs, and skipping the grey area of being a dedicated warrior tank.


**edit**
To get back to the OP.

Majority of the time to 75, you will be asked to sub NIN and use Axe WS. Using Great Axe brings some nice Skillchains especially at 60 (Raging Rush) Great Axe is most useful using /thf, so you are transferring hate and adding damage with SATA.

You can get away with never touching thf and great axe, some people won't like you when you turn down their Gaxe requests though. Also, if you plan on passing lvl70 Limit Break as a warrior, you must have great axe, as axe will not deal enough damage in this fight.

I know 60, 70, and 75 are far away, but if you think about your choices now, you don't have to deal with it later when its harder.

[Goldesper]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Actually you will still take less damage than a war/mnk, thats the point of tanking. Acc beats boost for hate control. Paladins and Ninjas should be tanking anyway, its why those jobs were made. Warrior doesn't compete.

Actually I believe NIN was meant to be a DD but thats aside the point.

From level 20-mid 30s WAR is hands down 100% the most undisputed best tank.

You have EVERYTHING going for you, massive damage through GAX and WSs, Provoke, Double Attack, and Berserk/Defender. Your also versatile in your subjob chioce, PLD and NIN are limited to /WAR.

From 20-29, if you are tanking /MNK is, in my estimation, the best tank. You are, for the most part, fighting mobs that hit light and fast, which gives Counterattack "more" of a chance to proc, which = hate.

If your DDing 20-29, you can sub RNG for the Accuracy bonus, or DRG for the Attack bonus and jump.

From 30-37, again MNK for solid tanking, if your not over hunting (fighting mandragora's until 33 ftw.) You can sub THF for super DD. You can even sub NIN for dual tanking when you are over hunting.

Having played this game for 3 years or so, i've figured out what the most efficient way to lvl is. Not that it takes that long though.

Question: what jobs should i level?
My opinion: Only level the jobs you will be using later in the game. A nice rule i'd go by is this......

What will i need to sub at 60? war/mnk doesn't exist.

Lionx: you are right about pre-20 nins, and pre-30 wars and such, but realistically, these level ranges play a VERY small amount of time in your career as a warrior. In the end, you will be glad you have the required jobs leveled, but you may also be content with JUST leveling those "Required" jobs, and skipping the grey area of being a dedicated warrior tank.

I suppose I am an overachiever, but I figure you might as well get:
RNG -> 15 (Not an option if you are first time character)
MNK-> 20
DRG->15 (Same as RNG)
THF->37
NIN->37

That way you'll be covered pratcially all the way to 75, since /MNK makes such a huge difference in those levels.

Just my 2g. And I probably had some inconsistency, being that I've been awake for like 32 hours now

[Celeal]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

...
Starting war/mnk when you want to be an endgame war is pointless.
...

/mnk is a stepping stone, an option for starting player from:

1) lvl 1 ~ 18 MNK -> unlock subjob
2) lvl 1 ~ 30 WAR/MNK -> unlock NIN
3) lvl 1 ~ 37 THF/MNK or THF/WAR (lvl 24+ for THF/NIN)
4) use THF to raise Norg Fame
5) lvl 1 ~ 37 NIN/WAR
6) lvl 30 ~ endgame WAR/NIN, WAR/THF, skill up other weapons, level other jobs for fun, mission/quest, etc.

At endgame, the max. HP boost from monk is handly for Spirit Within. WAR/MNK with capped H2H is an option for end game KRT parties, or certain BCNM that fight against bones too.

[Jarre]

Re: Sub jobs... Whats truly needed?

Are you serious? WAR/THF before 30 is a waste, /MNK with boost can hold solid hate after the 2nd provoke if you are doing it right, WAR/THF has nothing before 30 thats of any real use.

WAR/NIN after NIN/WARs get Utsusemi Ni and dual tanking is uncommon. Therefore to tank as a WAR/NIN you are going to need a BRD with Carnage Elegy. Otherwise you will not have the hate holding tools needed. Boost gives off a much needed mni-provoke that you otherwise wouldnt have.

To me, MNK sub is like SMN sub for WHM. You can sub BLM, BRD, or SMN to WHM and be fine and do well in different situations in exp. Not as optional as MNK/WHM which are not applicable in exp at all.

I have to agree, My WAR (32) MNK (28 (restricted to 15) keeps hate quite well when tanking in Altepa on beetles and dharmels, provoke, boost, focus, dodge etc. help keep me alive, mages relaxed and I do a good amount of damage with a centurians sword (i have had no complaints with using a sword and skillchains have been frequent and effective)