Great Axe...?

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Great Axe...?

Actually this is the sort of stuff i was looking for, even if you just say where it was how much your hitting for, and some of the benifits then yes il believe anyone. The person who it was directed at however has yet to post his level. (even though im guessing somewhere between the dunes, and crawlers nest)

I myself am a huge advocate of the great axe because I love to see that huge heavy axe go flying around, and smacking the enemy upside its head, doing great damage, and having useful debuffs (i.e. all the breaks if unresisted are some of the best debuffs in the game in my own opinion, after those breaks land the battle aint gonna last much longer if the enemy has -40 evasion or -25% defense)

Its so great when people use a great axe, it kinda makes me wanna cry (jk)

Anywho yesterday I finally got into a party, where there was a war/nin who used a great axe and kept it capped before axe. It was a sight to behold

(I think the last great axe warrior I saw besides him, was in the dunes, thats quite sad)

[Feba]

Re: Great Axe...?

My level isn't exactly hard to find, if you look to the left. Or on my wikipedia page in my sig. Although it has gone up by 4 since the time I made my last post, thanks to a good PT in Behemoth's Dominion. And yes, I realize i'm not 60+, which is the point, i'm actually using an axe before 50/52/55, and doing well with it. I tried to parser a PT(Which took me from 34->37) earlier, but at one point when I was trying to load chatlogs, it just crashed, and I decided that it wasn't worth it.

Until it crashed, I was neck and neck with the THF. The PT setup was NIN WAR THF BRD RDM COR, the COR was subbing WHM, and the NIN was busy with enfeebling ninjutsu, so the THF and I were doing most of the damage. The THF would SATA whoever didn't have hate at the time. The NIN kept hate very well with his enfeebles, even to the point where he could pull it off me after SATA+Provoke+Warcry

And frankly before you go around claiming that you never get outdamged when you parse every 3 levels, put up your levels, your equipment, And your party setups. What buffs you had on ect. And if you "can" posts some absolute posts to your claim.

What was that last sentance supposed to be? I'm confused.

Anyway, if you read the thread, you'd see I parse more than every 3 levels, but I suppose you don't need to.

Right now, my EQ is as follows:

eq list

Mithril Axe [There were no +1 on AH]
Mithril Axe [above]
Power Bow [mostly for soloing, I haven't had to pull yet]
Bolts [leep, Blind, Bloody. I would have acid bolts if I could hit the broad side of a dhalmel with 'em]
Emperor Hairpin [Belongs to a friend]
Spike Necklace
Beetle Earring +1
Beetle Earring +1
Centurion's Mail [Kampf was too pricey, and I don't see anything better than this until 40]
Whateverthosesandorianscallem [I was hurting for ACC when I got them, they're helping]
STR+3 Ring
Venerer Ring [Again, ACC helps a lot]
Wolf Mantle+1
Warrior's Belt+1
Kampf Legs [I could go for bastokan subligar, but A; hate subligars, and B; help when I have hate]
Leaping Boots [from the same friend who let me borrow his Emp. Pin]

Until about 32, I tried different things, mostly mithkabobs and meat jerky. Eating Dhalmel Pies now.

Generally, my swings do 20-40 damage each, depending on how high over me the mob is.
I have 70-80% Accuracy on high VT/low IT, last I checked (Like I said, Parser crashed)
Criticals do 70-100 damage each, typically around 80
Raging Axe typically hits for 80 with no buffs, 30 with defender (when i'm pulling too much hate, I put it on so a BRD friend doesn't yell at me >_>), 100 with Serk, 190+ when it crits. Occasional 250, i'm assuming on double crits.
Tarutaru, mostly dualtanking or subtanking.

And besides, if those Gaxe who never have never outdamaged you. Are most likely using breaks, making it so that your raging axes can hit so consistantly. -40 evasion when unresisted is alot.

nope, i'm talking about Sturmwind spammers. If you're enfeebling/buffing, I don't really count your damage (unless it's like guillotine silence, heheh)


Right now, i've noticed my ACC is about 5% less than most people I PT with using a GAX. I'm wondering if they were wearing DEX rings (Although the pin and boots provide as much or more than the rings), or if it was their food (but i'm pretty sure most of them were eating meat, too).


Either way, like I said, i'm more than pulling my weight, and until I have to have GAX to keep up, i'm doing more than fine with axe.

[Lmnop]

Re: Great Axe...?

But War is supposed to be the jack of all trades when it comes subs, but now its a one trick pony, with duel axes, and rampage.

This is really the core of all anti-/nin sentiments. I spent a long time to level the number of SJs I have ready for party use (with only 10ish hours online/week at that) just to end up always /nin. The worst part is that it's usually my choice. I take a look-see at the party list and see "hmm, this party would have to be really good for me to be able to survive as /sam. I should stick with /nin." and then there's lazyness: "eeeck, I don't feel like setting up SA and TA macros, I'ma just /nin." That one I'm very particularly ashamed of myself for.

At the end of the day though... I think that if a Warrior makes it to 75 w/out greataxe leveled at least up to level 70, you're a bad warrior. I seem to be one of very few warriors on my server who play it because I enjoy all the things it's capable of, not just "OMFG MERITS!"

It's not a matter of whether or not it works, I guess it's just an honor issue or something. I'd appreciate it if you honored my job.

[Armando]

Re: Great Axe...?

This is actually very simple. Feba knows what he's doing, knows how to pick his equipment and food, knows how to use his abilities, and in short plays better than most/all people he's partied with so far. The fact that he's yet to be outparsed is not solid proof that Great Axe doesn't perform better; it's simply proof that Feba knows what he's doing.

You know what? I, levelling THF/RNG in Qufim, have outparsed THF/NINs of equal level. In fact, I don't think I got outparsed in Qufim. And you know what? I was single-wielding a dagger and using Shadowstitch on crabs. This is NOT definitive proof that Dagger > other weapons at those levels when it comes to THF. I believe daggers are very underrated in the early 20's and can put up some good numbers, but regardless, me parsing higher only proves that when used correctly, daggers can put up good numbers; it doesn't prove that I would've performed worse with other weapons.

Feba, if other WAR/NINs with dual axes don't outparse you, then a Great Axe user probably won't outparse you anyways. If you want to use dual axes, that's your decision. My only gripe is that you can't say Great Axe isn't worth it on the grounds that you haven't been outparsed. If a Sword/Sword user or a Great Sword user happened to outparse you, would you then think that those weapons are better? If you used a Scythe and outparsed an axe-axe WAR/NIN, would you consider that solid proof to claim Scythe performs better? It's not.

You might even make it all the way to 55 and not be outparsed by a Great Axe WAR. The only real way you can know how good Great Axes are is using one yourself. The reason I sustain that Great Axes are a better choice can be shown with numbers.

Level 20:
Battleaxe:
DMG: 20 | Delay: 276 | DMG/sec: 4.3478 |
Dual Wielded Battle Axe:
DMG: 20 | Delay: 248 | DMG/sec: 4.8387 | Damage/minute: 290.322
Neckchopper:
DMG: 39 | Delay: 489 | DMG/sec: 4.7853 | Damage/minute: 287.118 | Accuracy +5

Rusty Pick isn't worth mentioning because it has a worse DMG/Delay ratio compared to Battleaxe. Platoon Axe is the same as Battleaxe with 1 less DMG. WAR can't use Tomahawks, so the next upgrade are Tigerhunters.

Level 26:
Tigerhunter:
DMG: 22 | Delay: 276 | DMG/sec: 4.7826
Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
DMG: 22 | Delay: 248 | DMG/sec: 5.3226 | Damage/minute: 319.356
Plantbane:
DMG: 43 | Delay: 507 | DMG/sec: 5.0888 | Damage/minute: 305.328 | Additional Effect vs Plantoids: Fire Damage

Level 28:
Military Pick (THE GOD AXE):
DMG: 24 | Delay: 260 | DMG/sec: 5.5385 | Accuracy +1
Dual Wielded Military Pick:
DMG: 24 | Delay: 234 | DMG/sec: 6.1538 | Damage/minute: 369.228 | Accuracy +1 (*2)
Military Axe:
DMG: 46 | Delay: 474 | DMG/sec: 5.8228 | Damage/minute: 349.368

Dual Axes and Great Axes are very close together in DMG/Delay with the exception of Military Pick. However, Military Pick is expensive and somewhat rare. I doubt you'd find someone using two of them. If you ARE using two Military Picks, congratulations. I can only imagine how much fun that must be. If you're not...this is the part where Great Axe pulls ahead: WS. We'll assume the WAR has a total of 45 STR at this level, PDIF is 1.0 as usual. fSTR is assumed to be 0.

Raging Axe:
fTP @100 TP: 1.00 | Modifier: 30% STR | Hits: 2 (+1)

Raging Axe w/ Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
[(22 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 3 = 105 damage + 50% Skillchain damage = 157

Sturmwind:
fTP @100 TP: 1.00 | Modifier: 30% STR | Hits: 2

Sturmwind w/ Military Axe:
[(46 + (45 * 0.30)) * 1.0 * 1.0] * 2 = 118 damage + 50% Skillchain damage = 177

Now let's consider total damage:

Dual Wielded Tigerhunter:
6.6 TP per hit
Requires 13 hits post-WS to acquire 100 TP (7 Attack rounds)
Time required: 57.87 secs
Damage done in 7 attack rounds: 308
WS damage: 105
Total: 413
Total damage/second: 413/57.87 = 7.1367

Military Axe:
12.7 TP per hit
Requires 7 hits post-WS to acquire 100 TP (7 hits)
Time required: 55.3 secs
Damage done in 7 attacks: 322
WS damage: 118
Total: 440
Total damage/second: 440/55.3 = 7.9566

From a purely mathematical point of view, Great Axe will at the very least keep up with (in this example, exceed) Dual Axes. However, like I stated earlier, I value Shield Break/Armor Break's effect far more than I value raw damage. Also, in order for Axes to keep up at all, they MUST be Dual Wielded. Great Axes will perform great with any sub, and will put Axes to shame with /THF and /MNK (and /DRG.) Thus, not having Great Axe available makes you less versatile. Let's face it - pickup parties won't ask you for Shield Break any more than they'll bother trying to think of a Skillchain that isn't Distortion (heaven forbid!) That doesn't mean they know what's best.

In conclusion, I'm not going to give Feba a hard time for not using Great Axes. It's his decision, he seems to be performing well regardless, and he understands the consequences of not having it levelled. However, I hope that this post explains why so many of us value Great Axe so much.

P.S. I hear Twicer blows everything out of the water. 4-hit Sturmwinds must be absurd.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Great Axe...?

Im sorry if that statement came off as if i was dishonoring your job, i was actually just making a generalization of the fact, i haven't had /mnk or /thf wars in a party since level 20 on my paladin. The parties usually go like this

here was a party in the yhoator jungle all level 29

a dd leaves, and we scout out for a new one.

>Party leader-So what do we want.
I search and see a war/thf
>Me-Hey theres a war/thf lfg, why dont we invite him, there awesome dd
bluntly stated response of party- gimp
>Me-Well theres a couple war/mnk up why not one of them
once again-gimp
>Me-What about a dra...
interruption-gimp
>random person-how bout we wait for a war/nin ^^
>parties response-sure, why dont we ask those other wars see if they have /nin
>me-...
turned out that they all were newer players who didn't have a class to 30 yet.
>party leader-well guess we can get the /thf... wait a /nin popped yay.

i guess it's just been in my bad experience that i get completly biased parties.

I mean yes that remark i made was kind f rude but dont take it personally (i was alittle bit moody last night from some of my friends drinking till they were completly plastered, and they called me and asked if i could drag them home)

I love warrior as a job, i just dont love what it's been turned into by a good portion of vanadiel.

And everytime i go back and try and get war past 30 it turns into me going /mnk and in my search comment i also say that i have /thf a nearly capped great axe, a military axe, and the full kampf set.

After 5 hours of seeking for 3 days i finally got a party. I got there and this happend

Party leader-<disband> <goodbye>

I was like, ok wtf. I spent money on a airship ticket, a chocobo, my food, and get out here as fast as possible, though my experience wont be quiet as good as garlaige, and you disband on me. And it just keeps happening, i mean i need war to 37 soon.

Im so sick of it, i spent a month farming for my kampf set, and 3 weeks for my military axe. When i finally got all of that nice equipment the party invites stopped comming at level 30. I went back and leveled thief to 18 (which took about a month because of 10-15). Nothing still. So im about at the point when I gain up some more gil (after i buy all the necessities for 50 for my paladin), im going to go back and level nin (to 18), and bst (for the axe skill) so i can just get it to 37 finally.

Only problem is i never did like bounce tanking at all ><

I am truely sorry for that post, I shouldnt have even said anything

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Great Axe...?

Following up what Armando has written...

I have Military Picks (and the rest). I didn't use them over a Great Axe for one reason.

And this is it:

I honestly don't care if the Drk, War, Drg, Sam, Mnk outparses me by 5% or 10% if my Shield Breaks have helped them do so. My e-penis isn't so in need of being buffered that I have to go for the ZOMG damage every time. If my actions can make the party do more than they did before - and exp better for it, or mission better for it, or quest better for it...

I'll do it, gladly.. and again and not worry that someone might dare outdamage me.

Now... if I'm being outparsed by 20% and not hitting anything... I'll rethink my options, but - I don't feel threatened by someone outparsing me, if I'm doing my job right. And as a G. Axe Warrior when it comes to pass - that's often more helping the party rather than helping myself.

- Saeriel.

[XaviarCraig]

Re: Great Axe...?

I might be old fashion, but I was always told a "GOOD" Warrior will:

"... always have Axe, Great Axe, Sword, Great sword, Spear, Scythe, Club, Staff, Archery, and Marksmenship ALL leveled to atleast 5 job levels behind cap. He/She should also have /THF, /MNK, /WHM, /RDM, /NIN, /DRG, /PLD, /DRK, /RNG, /SAM, /BRD all ready to used as subjobs..."

furthermore:

" ... they will use which ever combo of weapon and subjob that helps the party the most, aswell as accept ANY role remotely possible to forefill. If one cannot do this, they are a failure as a warrior."

I honestly cant do all of that yet, so I wont play warrior until I can.

Just my 2 gill.

EDIT: Forgot this part of the quote:

"... A True warrior doesnt care about being the star of the party, but helping forfill the role he/she was given as best they can according to their ability and equipment avaible..."

[Zynk]

Re: Great Axe...?

Well to the ppl that have gave me info thanks a lot. I'm just going to keep G.axe capped. An use it at all times til the PT needs me to go to axe.

[TenchiHawkwing]

Re: Great Axe...?

My level isn't exactly hard to find, if you look to the left. Or on my wikipedia page in my sig.

The NIN kept hate very well with his enfeebles, even to the point where he could pull it off me after SATA+Provoke+Warcry

(Like I said, Parser crashed)
Criticals do 70-100 damage each, typically around 80
Raging Axe typically hits for 80

Right now, i've noticed my ACC is about 5% less than most people I PT with using a GAX. I'm wondering if they were wearing DEX rings (Although the pin and boots provide as much or more than the rings), or if it was their food (but i'm pretty sure most of them were eating meat, too).


Either way, like I said, i'm more than pulling my weight, and until I have to have GAX to keep up, i'm doing more than fine with axe.

Paradox?

(Read very closely people)

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Great Axe...?

"Paradox?

(Read very closely people)"

Very Nice Tenchi, when i actually went back and reread these statements yeah, ill collaborate more alittle bit latter, i got to go do some testing.

(claps his hands at Tenchi)

[Feba]

Re: Great Axe...?

Paradox?

(Read very closely people)

Hm? You think it's odd that Raging Axe does around the same as a Critical?

[Stromgarde]

Re: Great Axe...?

WAR/DRG with a greataxe of an appropriate level will ruin an axe user in terms of damage between 20 to 30. Oftentimes at low level the haste through dual wield is completely negligable due to short fights. After 30 /thief becomes another viable alternative. However, at 30 there is an utter dearth of good axes that aren't crazy expensive. Hence why you see many, if not most war/nins in Promyvion with centureon swords. Before 40 (dual combat casters) it's very difficult to make any sort of case for /NIN with axes or swords. Greataxe is simply better if you're going for damage and not 'helping' the rest of the party with breaks, which axes don't even have the option of doing.

[Feba]

Re: Great Axe...?

oh wow, I completly missed some of these posts... stupid PC lagging...


Armando: Are you a math teacher? That aside, thanks for bringing some numbers into this to help show my point. Yes, I realize that S.Break takes 40EVA, but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point.

Valis: Nah, I understand your point, i'd probably be a bit bitter too if I thought someone was just leveling this job for the cookie cutter.

Spinnthrift: Like I said above to armando; plus consider the fact that i'm sub or dual tanking. To most PTs, the ability to have a member that has a hard time losing hate is very useful, especially in an emergency.

Double Post Edited:
Yeah... I tried to do WAR/DRG with a GAX in Kazham, just to see how well it worked.




It was ok, not very great (although I'm sure this is mostly due to the PT sucking). Would probably be better with High Jump, though.

[Armando]

Re: Great Axe...?

Armando: Are you a math teacher? That aside, thanks for bringing some numbers into this to help show my point. Yes, I realize that S.Break takes 40EVA, but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point.

Haha, no, I'm not a math teacher. I just graduated from high school about a month ago. But it's curious that you say "but people at this level only see damage, and want Sturmwind anyway, which negates the point." Does it really? Sturmwind does more damage than Raging Axe, and I demonstrated that overall, Great Axe does more damage regardless of sub (since /NIN offers Great Axe no advantage, and all the other subs give bigger advantage to Great Axe than Axe.)

[Feba]

Re: Great Axe...?

I mean, negates the point of using it for breaks, and axe is doing well in the damage department anyway.