Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Lionx, nothing is wrong with WAR/MNK in ballista. What people do outside of EXP matters very little to me. What I was pointing out about was his complaint about sushi. He says people use it so they can fight ITs where they shouldn't, and that people should use meat dishes against V-VTs (mobs they can hit). Ballista people are going to generally be your level unless you're there to goof off; what does that mean? They are EM. Why would you not use sushi against V-VTs but use it against EMs? It's a flawed point in his post that ruins his entire argument.

Clyde, I am not forgetting Dodge and Focus. Maybe your'e forgetting PLD has abilities to increase his defense even further, or other abilities like Cover that help the party far more than a WAR/MNK ever could in situations where it's needed. 20 Accuracy isn't going to make the TP gain insanely faster, no. Not when it is your only accuracy. Will it help? Yes. But you'll only get to 100TP maybe 3-4 attack rounds sooner, and a lot of PLDs like to rest with Dark Staves anyways. Their TP gain is basically zilch, though lol.

A PLDs ability to hold hate better than a WAR/MNK, to use flash to basically make the mob blind, grab hate, and if used effectively reduce a lot of damage, and ability to cover allies is what puts him over a WAR/MNK. By being able to grab hate a lot faster than a WAR/MNK, he allows the party to deal a lot more damage in a shorter period of time. With a WAR/MNK, even with Provoke + Boost hate holding, I'd hold back (not use the best food or the best gear, wait a few seconds before engaging, not use as many WSs). It isn't worth risking death to slow the overall gain of TP just because someone thinks they can play a job as effectively as jobs that are better at tanking.

You say WAR/MNK is acceptable, but I say it's inferior. It's obvious we're not going to agree here.

[Armando]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Clyde, I am not forgetting Dodge and Focus. Maybe your'e forgetting PLD has abilities to increase his defense even further, or other abilities like Cover that help the party far more than a WAR/MNK ever could in situations where it's needed.

PLD has no abilities to raise Defense worth using for the sake of raising Defense. Rampart and Sentinel are best saved as hate spikes, just like Warcry is for WAR.

But you'll only get to 100TP maybe 3-4 attack rounds sooner, and a lot of PLDs like to rest with Dark Staves anyways. Their TP gain is basically zilch, though lol.

With an axe, 3-4 attack rounds sooner is 13.8 to 18.4 seconds sooner. Another reason WAR/MNK may get it faster is because they never interrupt their attack cycles, whereas a PLD constantly is. Though, now PLD gets Shield Mastery II at 50, which could keep them pretty even.

A PLDs ability to hold hate better than a WAR/MNK, to use flash to basically make the mob blind, grab hate, and if used effectively reduce a lot of damage, and ability to cover allies is what puts him over a WAR/MNK.

Agreed. But there's a fine line between "inferior" and "not practical." A WAR/MNK can get the job done when it counts, and that's what matters. You can't always find a PLD. The problem is, people try to perpetuate the "WAR/MNK can't tank stigma" and that extends to other places. When people start saying "WAR/MNK can't tank" as if it were an absolute truth, they start overlooking them for BCNMs and Mission fights (for tanking, obviously.)

By being able to grab hate a lot faster than a WAR/MNK, he allows the party to deal a lot more damage in a shorter period of time.

But WAR can give Berserkga to the party (see Armor Break.) As long as hate is held, all is fine. I think people underestimate how well WAR/MNK can hold hate, too. Now that there's High Breath Mantle, you can have Enmity +5 on your back slot starting at level 36. That's a lot.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Funny, I just did a Catoblepas party at level 66 yesterday. Seemed to do just fine with sushi and a bard with double Minuet.

There are two levels of Catoblepas. The ones in the back area are signifigantly higher level.

At lower levels, this may be true. Once you get into the 50+ range, I disagree. I notice little or no difference between melee damage or kill speed when using Minuet III + IV + Sole sushi for melees vs. Minuet IV + Blade Madrigal + <insert meat dish>. They're about equal, except for the fact that most melees don't carry good meat dishes since Bards tend to be very rare.

Try meat in a party of slower, clunkier DD jobs. (My information is compiled from a static with a Samurai and Dragoon as the only other DDs next to my Ninja.) We did Madrigal and Minuet for the lower end of camps, and Double Minuet for the upper end for speed chains. (Chain #17 in Kuftal Tunnel at level 57, huzzah.) I was the only one using Sushi, as I did notice the difference with my accuracy, as I hit a lot faster than they did. Honestly though, this could apply for any DD job as long as your Bard is playing the correct songs for your range.

As long as the weapon is within shouting distance of being capped (i.e. hasn't been neglected for 3+ levels), I see nothing wrong with capping an important weapon for your job, so long as you inform the party that you're doing it so that a new skillchain can be set up.

I've had Warrior's doing this recently in parties with my Ninja. -_- "Haven't levelled Great Axe since 55! Guess it's time to get to it!" It's times like that I wish our static had stuck together. I won't even notice the difference if the weapon is close to cap. But wide gaps are just unacceptable.

Most good Ninjas I know use sushi - Dorado sushi to be precise, since it gives +3 enmity. And since when does accuracy have anything to do with Spirits Within? Spirits Within never misses, and only triggers damage based off of your current HP and TP.

Tried Dorado, decided I didn't like it as much as I should have. I switched back to Sole and was holding hate exactly the same as I had been. I've noticed Enmity+ isn't nearly as drastic as Enmity- is. I only wear Enmity+6, but that'd just in my daytime evasion equipment. At least when I was using Sole, I was hitting a little bit harder, which is a big part in Ninja tanking.



I do know what I'm talking about, despite coming off as a jaded jerk. o.o (Which, after playing this game for long enough, I have become!)

[Pawky]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

PLD has no abilities to raise Defense worth using for the sake of raising Defense. Rampart and Sentinel are best saved as hate spikes, just like Warcry is for WAR.

PLD gets Defender from WAR sub lol

With an axe, 3-4 attack rounds sooner is 13.8 to 18.4 seconds sooner. Another reason WAR/MNK may get it faster is because they never interrupt their attack cycles, whereas a PLD constantly is. Though, now PLD gets Shield Mastery II at 50, which could keep them pretty even.

also with Dual wield if you miss one attack you are probably going to land the other 2-4 swings(depending if Double attack kicks in fully on both mainhand and offhand), If you miss it with Great axe you're not getting TP, also Shield mastery returns 5 TP a block for me and kicks in 80%ish of the time, between that and Joyeuse I definatly gain TP faster than a WAR/MNK.

Agreed. But there's a fine line between "inferior" and "not practical." A WAR/MNK can get the job done when it counts, and that's what matters. You can't always find a PLD. The problem is, people try to perpetuate the "WAR/MNK can't tank stigma" and that extends to other places. When people start saying "WAR/MNK can't tank" as if it were an absolute truth, they start overlooking them for BCNMs and Mission fights (for tanking, obviously.)

WAR/MNK is an inferior tank to PLD, WAR/NIN, and NIN/WAR after level 50 or so.

When your Melee start getting their big damage WS you arent going to be able to hold hate as a WAR/MNK with Great axe, or Axe and shield, at level 74 WAR gets Utsusemi: Ni and that makes subbing monk even more pointless than it ever was, a WAR/MNK has never been able to come close to my WAR/NIN in terms of DoT or WS damage~

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

also with Dual wield if you miss one attack you are probably going to land the other 2-4 swings(depending if Double attack kicks in fully on both mainhand and offhand), If you miss it with Great axe you're not getting TP

You are twice as likely to miss as well swinging twice compared to once. Before you argue you have twice the chance for DA to kick in, when the Gaxe does DA it will get twice the tp as an axe, so it evens out.

Shield mastery returns 5 TP a block for me and kicks in 80%ish of the time, between that and Joyeuse I definatly gain TP faster than a WAR/MNK.

If you /really/ want to bring the whole joyeuse issue into this, a war/mnk can use twicer for Gaxe at lv 30. Joytoy isnt untill 70.

a WAR/MNK has never been able to come close to my WAR/NIN in terms of DoT or WS damage

Maybe not, but a war/mnk using gaxe and breaks improves the entire pt's performance. Having breaks on helps as much as having a brd in the PT imo.

[Pawky]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

You are twice as likely to miss as well swinging twice compared to once. Before you argue you have twice the chance for DA to kick in, when the Gaxe does DA it will get twice the tp as an axe, so it evens out.

I very rarely missed both swings leveling WAR lol, and what you said isnt true, a WAR/NIN out TPs a great axe WAR because they can get most of the time more TP, and have way less delay on their weapons, I'll admit Great Axe using has become better than it used to be since the TP patch, but a great axe will never touch Dual wield in terms of TP gain.

If you /really/ want to bring the whole joyeuse issue into this, a war/mnk can use twicer for Gaxe at lv 30. Joytoy isnt untill 70.

I thought we were arguing about WAR/MNKs tanking ability 1-75? I never said WAR/MNK was a bad tank in early levels, just that its pointless after level 50 or so and obsolete.

Bringing a Joyeuse into the argument isnt like bringing a ridill into it, Joyeuse is pretty obtainable for most people, and even without Joyeuse I STILL out TP'ed great axe WARs.

Maybe not, but a war/mnk using gaxe and breaks improves the entire pt's performance. Having breaks on helps as much as having a brd in the PT imo.

A joke? this a joke right?

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Bringing a Joyeuse into the argument isnt like bringing a ridill into it, Joyeuse is pretty obtainable for most people, and even without Joyeuse I STILL out TP'ed great axe WARs.

I never brought ridill into it, I brought a twicer into it. It's a 70k lv30 Gaxe. Very obtainable

[Pawky]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I never brought ridill into it, I brought a twicer into it. It's a 70k lv30 Gaxe. Very obtainable

Please read what I wrote, I never said you did.

the way you said "If you /really/ want to bring the whole joyeuse issue into this" you made it sound like Joyeuse was a broken weapon and gave whoever had one an extremely unfair advantage, when it isnt like that, Joyeuse isnt broken so its perfectly acceptable to mention as an offhand weapon, hence my saying "Bringing a Joyeuse into the argument isnt like bringing a ridill into it" If I had brought something like Ridill into the argument then you could say something like that, but I mentioned Joyeuse offhand, not Ridill.

Twicer is nice, but it isnt really something you'd use past level 50

[Armando]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I would love to see what your war/mnk is tanking in to get TP at a noticeably faster rate than a PLD post ~50, and maybe a few levels earlier. Counter doesn't give TP, and I don't think you'd be using Aggressor. If you do use Berserk for anything other than a quick WS, you should be shot; defender probably isn't used sparingly.

It's a simple matter of WAR/MNK getting a free 2 TP every time it's hit, and WAR/NIN having to waste 4 seconds every single time he wants to recast Utsusemi. 4 seconds is 240 Delay's worth of time. You could say that every time a WAR/NIN uses Utsusemi, he falls behind by 6.4 TP. A WAR/MNK, having restricted his Attack, is going to use Breaks. Shield Break gives a bigger Accuracy boost than Sushi until endgame.

PLD gets Defender from WAR sub lol

Then it's not a PLD ability, is it? WAR gets Defender from being WAR. The tone of Siber's post implied that PLD had abilities to raise Defense that a WAR/MNK didn't get access to.

also with Dual wield if you miss one attack you are probably going to land the other 2-4 swings(depending if Double attack kicks in fully on both mainhand and offhand), If you miss it with Great axe you're not getting TP, also Shield mastery returns 5 TP a block for me and kicks in 80%ish of the time, between that and Joyeuse I definatly gain TP faster than a WAR/MNK.

If you miss one hit in Dual Weild, you have to wait almost twice as long to swing again. Dual Weild changes nothing; sure, you're likely to hit one of the two swings, but guess what? If I miss one swing single-weilding anything, I'm likely to land the next swing too. Also, Shield Mastery III is a level 75 PLD ability, and I guarantee you don't Shield 80% of the time. At best you can bring Shield Mastery II into the discussion, which I've already stated helps PLD keep even with other jobs, not surpass them. As for Joyeuse...what the hell? That was a pointless thing to bring into the dicussion.

I very rarely missed both swings leveling WAR lol, and what you said isnt true, a WAR/NIN out TPs a great axe WAR because they can get most of the time more TP, and have way less delay on their weapons, I'll admit Great Axe using has become better than it used to be since the TP patch, but a great axe will never touch Dual wield in terms of TP gain.

News flash: All weapons get TP at the same rate now.

Bringing a Joyeuse into the argument isnt like bringing a ridill into it, Joyeuse is pretty obtainable for most people, and even without Joyeuse I STILL out TP'ed great axe WARs.

Could it be because you have Shield Mastery III? Every TWO shield blocks gives you one swing's worth of TP.

A joke? this a joke right?

Um...no. No it isn't. Shield Break > Sushi, Armor Break > Berserkga. Breaks let the DDs win at both Attack and Accuracy: use Breaks for one stat, and food for the other. Shield Break + Meat = DD heaven.

If you /really/ want to bring the whole joyeuse issue into this, a war/mnk can use twicer for Gaxe at lv 30. Joytoy isnt untill 70.

Unfortunately, I hear Twicer's effect is like 15 seconds. It only lasts long enough for about two swings. What it IS good for, though, that Joyeuse can't do, is force Double Attacks on WS. I'd imagine 4-hit Sturmwinds are nasty.

the way you said "If you /really/ want to bring the whole joyeuse issue into this" you made it sound like Joyeuse was a broken weapon and gave whoever had one an extremely unfair advantage, when it isnt like that, Joyeuse isnt broken so its perfectly acceptable to mention as an offhand weapon, hence my saying "Bringing a Joyeuse into the argument isnt like bringing a ridill into it" If I had brought something like Ridill into the argument then you could say something like that, but I mentioned Joyeuse offhand, not Ridill.

By the time you have a Joyeuse I doubt you'd have WAR/MNKs tanking anymore. If you have a PLD with a Joyeuse, there's no reason for the WAR to main tank. If you have a Joyeuse, of course you'll out-TP other people. The Joyeuse argument is totally irrelevant. That's why you didn't need to bring it up.

[Kenki]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Lol I read the thread for a while and it seems to ran off the track. What are you guys trying to argue here? War/Mnk is a better tank than Pld and Nin? Or War/Mnk is an inferior tank that is absolutely worthless in tanking therefore people should only take Pld and Nin as tanks while all Wars should go DD?

War/Mnk, after lv37 or rather lv40 with whm, is not your top choice for tanking. Everyone should know that both nin and pld gets a lot of buff in tanking after lv37 and lv41. Unless they are having very bad ninjas, no thf and no whm to haste them, ninja will make a very good tank. The same thing for pld but these Heavies aren't needing no thf, just a rdm to refresh. So, we can say that if a PT is in the making and is looking for a tank: War/Mnk will not be on the top list of tank.

So should all Wars be DD now? Well only for narrow minded people. War/Mnk still make decent tanks. They might not be as good as pld in hold hate and curing himself or Nin in saving MP but they can tank better than your little Thf/War over there or maybe that Mnk/War with really big ego...etc.

You have a PT, 5 people and you're looking for a tank. You keep waiting 1hour for a tank to pop up but only this War/Nin is looking. He has a Mnk sub in his comment. You have 4 options: #1 keep waiting, #2 get the War/Nin to solo tank or #3 get the war/nin to be war/mnk and tank OR #4 "Sorry guys no tank" and everyone will be unhappy. Well, after waiting for an hour or so people can be desperate and the War/Mnk might be the best choice right?

So, now you have a War/Mnk to tank. What do you expect? same deal as pld and nin? No, it can't be; War/Mnk needs more healing but in exchange they deal more damage so the style has to be a bit different. Does this mean your PT will have a hard time getting exp? Not necessary, unless your PT is full of narrow minded people who can't work well outside of their standard setup.

The bottom line is: War/Mnk is not your top choice for tanking. Good Pld and Nin will perform better than good War/Mnk in most situations. War/Mnk is not a worthless tank if the PT can cooperate and work similar to pre-37, it's just not an optimal tank. If you can't get a Pld or a Nin, you might want to look for a War to tank, if it's solo tank a War/Mnk might be your best bet.
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Back to the topic. War/Nin VS War/Thf difference?

War/Nin favors 1 Hand Axe and Rampage. They gain a -15% delay reduction so bonus to damage; Plus an extra swing into every WS if they have 2 weapons. Excess hate will be absorbed with Utsusemi. They can co-tank or back-up tank. They can pull fast running monsters and can be a trick dummy for Thfs. A fast pace, TP spam PT will favor War/Nin. Standard PT with Blm or SC dependent will not favor War/Nin since they aren't used to their full potential (keeping TP to 150%~200% is not a very good thing for Rampage).

War/Thf favors Great Axe. SA is only 1 critical hit so it's not a very favorable ability later on but on early levels it's a good one. TA is good when hate control is needed. With the TP upgrade, Gaxe gains a bit more TP so they are now a bit more useful. There is no excess hate, all excess hate will be transfer into the victim of your choice when you do WS. A PT that favors a powerful SC with strong MB will favor War/Thf since this time hate control is absolutely needed.

[Zyph]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

It's funny that none of you have even tried leveling WAR/MNK at higher levels.. which pretty much voids your opinion.

I have done it, I tanked from 1-74 as WAR/MNK. I did it on past characters as well.

Yes, we do get TP fast, we get TP from hitting, TP from getting hit, and TP from counter.

Yes we do tank well, and take damage comparable to that of a PLD. And counter is an incredible job trait.

You'd be surprised at how easy it is to hold hate, especially when you counter a mobs attack for 150ish damage...4 times in a row.

[Bravura]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

It's funny that none of you have even tried leveling WAR/MNK at higher levels.. which pretty much voids your opinion.

QFT

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

It's funny that none of you have even tried leveling WAR/MNK at higher levels.. which pretty much voids your opinion

Ehhh, you don't have to play a job to be able to do math, though.

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

It's hard to do the math correctly though when you're using under-rated numbers. I dont remember counter giving tp, and I'm pretty sure it doesnt, however it still mitigates a lot of damage and adds a lot of hate. A very under-rated ability by most non-mnks.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

You know a parser can fix the problem of underestimation?