Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

[arkaine23]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

This thread has turned into some pretty nice discussion on these 3 common subs for war. And it seems pretty focused at the pre-50 level range, bc we all know wars become excellent /nin DD's with dual axes and rampage spam. But keep in mind that War is very flexible in weapon/gear selection and playstyle. For those leveling war as a subjob, this is surely very useful as a guide to playstyle if they have only 1 or 2 of these subs available to sub for war, when leveling it up to 37 or beyond.

So summary time:

/thf- spike damage with SA at 30 (best for G Axe WS Sturmwind). I guess maybe a small eva boost and treasure hunter are also benefits of the sub. TA post-60 if hate control is needed is possible tho usually mnks and drks will do that. Stats would tend to provide a little dex and gi over other subs. Best role: DD, with strong SC potential. Suggested weapon: G Axe and depending on SC partners other weapons can work too if skilled. Don't forget you can use breaks for less damage than sturmwind and help every other melee hit better or hit harder. Nice fight opener!

/mnk- boost early on for small attack + hate bonus which is an excellent addition to provoke if tanking, dodge for some extra evasiveness, counter for damage mitigation + extra damage to mob in one, focus much later for acc boost. Stats provide extra vit and hp over other subs. This sub is better suited to meat tanking, so its best if geared and fooded properly. For example: vit+, hp+, high def gears, tank foods + regen drinks ftw, G Axe for breaks.

/nin- comes into its own around 50 with good stat axes and rampage. Prior to that DW is 10% delay reduction of the sum of both weapons (15% at lvl 50). Utsusemi for damage mitigation. Generally geared for DD, but can be geared decently for eva or vit/def when needed to tank (do people actually do this tho or just stay in their acc/atk builds and eating sushi?). Will take hits better than a main nin at least. Nin like thf doesn't provide much for str and other DD stats compared to other subs.


There are some other subs to consider-

/sam- gets 3rd eye for a single blink, post 60 meditate for WS spam.

/drg- jumps every 90 seconds for pretty decent damage, acc bonus, the latent effect lvl 30 items add +haste%.

[Lmnop]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

o0 don't see Nny around these parts much these days.

War/mnk is good. If you think it's gimp, I'm sorry to hear it. A baboon can mash the voke and boost macros all day and wheneve those abilities are up, one of them gets used. Tada! you have the basics of war/mnk tanking. Aside from that, whether or not your war/mnk is a good tank depends on the particular baboon playing. Ninjas and Paladins often have ape-like tendencies -- those of you who invite a pld @level 48 and have to explain how SATA works know what I'm talking about. So really, I think war/mnk is as much a gamble as anything (oh, I had a nin at ~54 w/out Utsusemi: Ni once).

I posted on these boards once the day after I hit level 52. I had tanked consistent chain #5s as war/mnk. I think that says that war/mnk is "good enough." what people don't ever remember is that if I wear high defense gear, eat defense food, and have STR rings and some attack/acc accessories (NO SNIPERS!), that I won't take too much more dmg than a PLD but i will always deal soooo much more damage. He hits for 14 damage and I hit for 90! And Shield Break to start fights means the mobs are cake! If you're in a party with rdm, whm, blm back line, I don't see why the rdm can't toss you a few cures every now and then. The trade off is that he has one less refresh to worry about. But i'm not RDM

Ok, now for that time where we talk about why war/mnk isn't good. Aside from making other mages have to support more, the real breaker is level 50+. The mobs start hitting really hard, more accuracy gear is needed (which is less defense gear), and the party kill speed is expected to pick up. As the game goes on, this gets worse and worse. Meanwhile, Greataxe gets Weapon Break.
I can see that Weapon Break would be ideal for war/mnk tanking as it gives them a psuedo-Defender that doesn't affect their attack, freeing them up to do other tasks. However, you could be doing RAMPAGE to satisfy your Big Numbers Syndrome.. and really, killing faster and getting better exp.

Basically, war/mnk would need to somehow be /sam at the same time so he could Weapon Break + Raging Rush to keep up with what a war/nin + brd(or Corsair? o0) could do 60+.

[Aeni]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I don't want to bother responding to Siber's posting about WAR/MNK being equating to gimp. It's like saying that a THF/WAR is also gimp. You know, why did SE even bother with subjobs? The job abilities should just be quested individually no matter what job class and then players can decide what they want.



Anyway, going back to this discussion. It is true that a WAR/MNK might not be able to tank effectively as a PLD or NIN against an IT+ or higher exp mob.

However, against low ITs and VTs, WAR/MNK can tank superbly when compared with a WAR/NIN (pre-70s) The damage mitigation and G.Axe bonuses make them the ultimate (I do mean this sincerely) combination of the two. Boosting creates hate and lots of it keeps the hate consistent while provoking adds a giant spike every 30s. Dodge adds to damage mitigation and a G.Axe wielding war is likely to parry more than a subbed NIN with two 1hd. axes (Personal experience as well as account from other WAR friends)

I was in a group that got stuck with a WAR/NIN to tank. Jutsu being resisted 70% of the time. Fantastic! Way to go to keep hate. Ichi casting ftw. Seriously, even when a low IT mob is slowed and the WAR/NIN hasted, he still can't time the recast. Add to this that there's no way to retain hate other than provoke and warcry (5min recast btw) and you got yourself a crappy tank. Way to go!

[ZQM]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I was in a group that got stuck with a WAR/NIN to tank. Jutsu being resisted 70% of the time. Fantastic! Way to go to keep hate. Ichi casting ftw. Seriously, even when a low IT mob is slowed and the WAR/NIN hasted, he still can't time the recast. Add to this that there's no way to retain hate other than provoke and warcry (5min recast btw) and you got yourself a crappy tank. Way to go!

You were just left with a bad Warrior (Way beyond me why a WAR would use Ninjitsu) and possibly a bad backline. I tanked my way from the mid-60's to 75 as a WAR/NIN. I hardly ever got hit, thanks to my amazing back line (WHM that knows how to flash, BLM that knows how to stun, BRD taht knows the importants of Elegy). Because of their great skill, I was able to use FULL offensive equipment (Even pre-:Ni), and kept hate even in two RNG parties. And this was not just pre-RNG nerf, but pre-food nerf.

People put too much emphasis on "This is job is better then this job." The whole argueing about what's better is stupid. Because everyjob can do it. I've tanked Fafnir as WAR/MNK. I've tanked CoP wyrms as WAR/NIN, WAR/WHM, NIN/WAR, NIN/WHM, PLD/WAR, WHM/NIN. Other people have done them as NIN/DRK, DRK/NIN, RDM/NIN, RDM/WAR, list goes on. Seriously, it's a game. Do what you have fun with. Everybody always talks about how "this should be done this way, that should be done that way." What you do with it hardly makes a difference. It's like people who complain about meleeing RDM/WARs. It's a game, let them do what they find fun. Have a problem with that? Don't invite them to your party, it's that simple.

So all in all, it's a game. Lighten up. Do what you want to do to have fun. Play in a group of friends that understand the important of fun in a game. Because whichever it is that you decide, you'll still be able to complete whatever goal you're after.

[kazuri]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Seriously, it's a game. Do what you have fun with. Everybody always talks about how "this should be done this way, that should be done that way." What you do with it hardly makes a difference. It's like people who complain about meleeing RDM/WARs. It's a game, let them do what they find fun. Have a problem with that? Don't invite them to your party, it's that simple.

So all in all, it's a game. Lighten up. Do what you want to do to have fun. Play in a group of friends that understand the important of fun in a game. Because whichever it is that you decide, you'll still be able to complete whatever goal you're after.

Nny's post(s, his posts are always good) wins all.
For all you WAR/MNK complainers, tell that to Russta, who leveled to 70+ with it and is probably one of the better WARs out there in Vana'diel. I don't understand HOW people come up with these nonsense points here and there saying "x" subjob sucks and "y" subjob owns. One of FFXI's greatest power is the flexibility of jobs' roles, meaning VARIOUS COMBINATIONS actually work.

[Zyph]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

WAR/MNK is a good DD until level 30, then WAR/THF is better. A good WAR/NIN can tank on his own all the way to 37, but so can a WAR/MNK except to ~40 instead. WAR/MNK definately starts falling behind though and isn't worth it past 40 for anything unless your party is DESPERATE for a tank, and I mean desperate.

And no, I will not give an inferior job combination a break when it is useless in EXP for well over 60% of the game. Simmer down Aeni.

Could you be any more ignorant?

Tanked to 74 as WAR/MNK. Take this time to remove your head from your ass.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

yes those fleas are ep-- to me at 75. however, they have nearly 100% accuracy with my full evasion gear on. they hit for roughly 20-50 dmg each time but attack at lightning speed. shadows are as good as gone if you get aggro. the only good thing about it is, they have really low hp. usually 1 blade: jin and they're dead.

Didn't read the rest of the topic, but these little Chigoe are freakin' brilliant for defensive skillups. I've been skilling the crap out of my Parrying on them with Defender and Physical Damage-% gear on, plus dual Parrying Knives while my RDM friend spams me with cures.

God, I can already feel those skillups affecting my experience parties. It's so overpowered. x_x

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Could you be any more ignorant?

Tanked to 74 as WAR/MNK. Take this time to remove your head from your ass.

I know WAR/MNK can do well, but it takes more than most people can already muster for their current job to play the subjob correctly. As a generality, it's inferior when put in most users hands.

People put too much emphasis on "This is job is better then this job." The whole argueing about what's better is stupid. Because everyjob can do it.

I don't doubt every job could do almost everything; the thing is some jobs do it a whole lot better than others. For EXP, I don't like to sit around and watch as 1 guy as fun while the other 5 people have to put up with it because nothing else is seeking. It becomes slightly less "Do what you want to have fun" when 5 other people's time are on your hands. If you're questing or doing something on your own, I have no problem what you do. It's when someone is trying to have fun, and they end up joining as a job that can't really fit in a role in the PT very well. What does this do? Makes it harder for the rest of the party. It's easy to say don't invite them to a party, but when you're not the leader, what you say doesn't really matter much.

I still stand by WAR/MNK is an inferior tank post 40 when used by most PCs. I may have used the word "gimp" too loosely earlier, but that doesn't change anything. A PLD or a NIN can and generally will do the job better. A WAR/THF will deal more damage, and as you've said (and as I have recently experienced), a WAR/NIN with one hell of a backup line and sense of timing is a feat to behold.

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Which tank is better will really depend on the pt setup and the mobs youre fighting. War/mnk may not mitigate dmg as well as nin, or take some of the brunt of the curing off the whm as pld can, however it can hold hate just as well as either of these. War/mnk with the proper food and equips can take dmg just as well as a pld though, takes even less dmg with weapon break on mobs weak to water. War/mnk also can do more dmg than a pld through regular melee, and help the mobs die much faster assuming there are melee in the PT with shield/armor/full break. Most people really underestimate the power of Gaxe breaks.

[Armando]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

WAR/MNK can also get TP faster for skillchains or Breaks in general. And yes, Breaks are underestimated. You'd think with everyone whoring Sushi now, Armor Break, which gives Defense -25% to the mob (even better than Berserk for everyone, since the mob is likely to have more Defense than you have Attack) would be more popular in them mid-levels.

[Kakusaijin.]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

WAR/MNK can also get TP faster for skillchains or Breaks in general. And yes, Breaks are underestimated. You'd think with everyone whoring Sushi now, Armor Break, which gives Defense -25% to the mob (even better than Berserk for everyone, since the mob is likely to have more Defense than you have Attack) would be more popular in them mid-levels.

Most people who are using Sushi aren't using their brain to it's full capacity anyway.

Seriously, Sushi is by far the most overrated thing this game has. I'm sorry, but just because you have Sushi does NOT mean you should be doing any of the following.

1.) Fighting mobs you can't hit. (Example: Catoblepas at any level before 69-70.)
2.) Using it in the presence of a Bard. (Any type of Meat Dish will own the hell out of Sushi when you have a Bard in your party, period.)
3.) Using undercapped weapons in a party in hopes of capping it without your party noticing. (I hate Warriors who think it's okay to level up their Great Axe in parties in the 60 range because they know Raging Rush is coming.)
4.) Forcing any type of tank to have to use it. (If your tank can't go without it, your mobs are too freakin' high. Half of tanking is doing damage, for a Ninja at least. Doesn't play as big of a role to Paladin, but it does help for Spirits Within.)


Here are practical applications I can see for it.

1.) Skillup parties. (Of course.)
2.) When you're the lowest melee in your party, at the low end of a camp.
3.) Dynamis. (Xarcabard mobs have really high evasion no matter how many freakin' merits you have.)
4.) Ballista. (Eh, why not. Might not be free, but still better than nothing!)

Sorry, but I am on my bitter end with stupid parties who think it's okay to fight things that are way out of their range simply because they think Sushi will make it so they can hit. I've been dealing with it too much, and I'm tired of seeing it happen.





Did this rant really need to be this long? Hell no, but it drives me nuts. I apologize. >.>;

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Which tank is better will really depend on the pt setup and the mobs youre fighting. War/mnk may not mitigate dmg as well as nin, or take some of the brunt of the curing off the whm as pld can, however it can hold hate just as well as either of these. War/mnk with the proper food and equips can take dmg just as well as a pld though, takes even less dmg with weapon break on mobs weak to water.

You just explained why the other two are better. It can hold hate just as well, but hit-for-hit can take as little as a PLD (can being the word of choice, not does). It also can't dodge attacks like NIN. With Breaks it may take even less damage, but then again, a PLD has a shield which cuts a nice percentage right off the top.

WAR/MNK can also get TP faster for skillchains or Breaks in general.

I would love to see what your war/mnk is tanking in to get TP at a noticeably faster rate than a PLD post ~50, and maybe a few levels earlier. Counter doesn't give TP, and I don't think you'd be using Aggressor. If you do use Berserk for anything other than a quick WS, you should be shot; defender probably isn't used sparingly.

Here are practical applications I can see for it.
...
4.) Ballista. (Eh, why not. Might not be free, but still better than nothing!)

You just negated your entire complaint with that one line. Go back to Allakhazam.

[lionx]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

What is wrong with a WAR/MNK in ballista? As long as you arent using a huge GAxe you should be fine with Shield DEF and Axe power. Counter, high hp, focus, and dodge helps that as well especially since most people are "Even Match". Personally, in Ballista, a PLD/MNK could have easily beaten my WAR/NIN 1 to 1, so a WAR/MNK should be alot more better IMO. The fast swings of an Axe(almost as fast as a Sword) along with counter/dbl atk make shadows disappear really fast and interrupts casting.

Now in uncapped maybe this is untrue, but i dont find WAR/MNK weak to be the least in pvp much less tanking in general. And you do get TP back from counter. just 2% like you were hit only however. WARs can also use shields too and not just Great Axes when tanking. Skill is of course lower, but with how much i hear of shields going off lately it might be a very viable choice when chosen to tank pre 74.

[Icemage]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

1.) Fighting mobs you can't hit. (Example: Catoblepas at any level before 69-70.)

Funny, I just did a Catoblepas party at level 66 yesterday. Seemed to do just fine with sushi and a bard with double Minuet.

2.) Using it in the presence of a Bard. (Any type of Meat Dish will own the hell out of Sushi when you have a Bard in your party, period.)

At lower levels, this may be true. Once you get into the 50+ range, I disagree. I notice little or no difference between melee damage or kill speed when using Minuet III + IV + Sole sushi for melees vs. Minuet IV + Blade Madrigal + <insert meat dish>. They're about equal, except for the fact that most melees don't carry good meat dishes since Bards tend to be very rare.

3.) Using undercapped weapons in a party in hopes of capping it without your party noticing. (I hate Warriors who think it's okay to level up their Great Axe in parties in the 60 range because they know Raging Rush is coming.)

As long as the weapon is within shouting distance of being capped (i.e. hasn't been neglected for 3+ levels), I see nothing wrong with capping an important weapon for your job, so long as you inform the party that you're doing it so that a new skillchain can be set up.

4.) Forcing any type of tank to have to use it. (If your tank can't go without it, your mobs are too freakin' high. Half of tanking is doing damage, for a Ninja at least. Doesn't play as big of a role to Paladin, but it does help for Spirits Within.)

Most good Ninjas I know use sushi - Dorado sushi to be precise, since it gives +3 enmity. And since when does accuracy have anything to do with Spirits Within? Spirits Within never misses, and only triggers damage based off of your current HP and TP.


Icemage

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I would love to see what your war/mnk is tanking in to get TP at a noticeably faster rate than a PLD post ~50, and maybe a few levels earlier. Counter doesn't give TP, and I don't think you'd be using Aggressor. If you do use Berserk for anything other than a quick WS, you should be shot; defender probably isn't used sparingly.

I think youre forgetting dodge and focus. Dodge can be used by itself to evade much more than a pld, or used with aggressor to mitigate the evasion lost. Focus is 2 minutes of 20(I believe, correct me if im wrong) accuracy with a mere 5 minute cooldown. In fact, if you cycle aggressor and focus, youll have a major acc buff up 24/7. I would say +20-25 acc on at all times would help you get tp a lot faster than a pld. Berserk and Defender shouldnt affect a Gaxe war's TP gain. Gaxe war shouldnt even get near to 0 dmg a hit, even with def equips and defender on.

The best thing about a Gaxe war/mnk tank, is that it allows everyone else to kill the enemy faster, with the exception of weapon break, in which it should be taking much less dmg than a pld anyway.

I'm not trying to say war/mnk > all, but rather its an acceptable tank, just as pld and nin are. Nearly any job can tank (ive seen drk/whm, drk/war, whm/war along with other jobs you wouldn't think could tank, do it just fine) however, I would pur war/mnk up in the same class as pld or nin.