Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

[Armando]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

You know what'd be awesome, too? The return of WAR/SAM. With the changes to TP, and Store TP II, you could do Break -> Meditate -> 2 hits -> WS. That's right, as long as the first WS lands, you only need to land two hits afterwards. Plus, there's that new multi-hit Great Axe coming out...if the latent effect trigger is reasonable, there's a good chance you'd be able to do the second WS after only one attack round.

EDIT: In retrospect, WAR/SAM could already WS after only 2 hits. Guess I should've done the math for how it was before. I feel stupid now XD

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

I said it before and I'll say it again. WAR/MNK does not suck as DD or Defensively. Just the common misconception that is somehow perpetuated to near blind-sidedness at this point. The thing I find offensive about this is the discrimination from just about everyone against players who do like to go about their business as a WAR/MNK.

Can the community just give these players a fucking break and go about playing their own job just as effectively? Thanks.

WAR/MNK is a good DD until level 30, then WAR/THF is better. A good WAR/NIN can tank on his own all the way to 37, but so can a WAR/MNK except to ~40 instead. WAR/MNK definately starts falling behind though and isn't worth it past 40 for anything unless your party is DESPERATE for a tank, and I mean desperate.

And no, I will not give an inferior job combination a break when it is useless in EXP for well over 60% of the game. Simmer down Aeni.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

And no, I will not give an inferior job combination a break when it is useless in EXP for well over 60% of the game.

If it's not affecting you, then why bother? I don't get it.

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Because I hate gimps, and that's what WAR/MNK is for most of EXP.

[Caspian]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Actually had a WAR/MNK tank in the late 40's fighting beetles in QC. He actually did real well and wasn't much of a tax on MP at all.
As far as leaving them alone if its not affecting you: I don't think he's doing searches for all the WAR/MNK's on his server and sending them /tells telling them they're stupid. I think its more in reference to people asking advice and then not liking the advice they're given. If someone asks you should be honest and point out why certain things are considered better. I believe Nny showed that WAR/MNK can be really good if done right, even in endgame. A lot of the problem, I think, comes from people trying to be different with a potentially decent sub, w/o knowing how to play it.

Btw, arkaine posted originally that /thf san SA sturmwind in the 20's. I think they typo'd, but just to avoid confusion SA is not available until lvl 30 with a thf sub.

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

War/mnk can be a decent tank, even into higher lvs. I personally had war/mnk tanks a few times from low to high 60s, just imo its best with gaxe. Boost is a minivoke and helps ws dmg slightly, counter is very nice for both damage mitigation and enmity, focus helps you get tp for shield/armor break(which is a HUGE support to get from a tank) as well as land the WS, dodge helps you evade more...though ill admit you wont be evading a /ton/ it still helps, and if hes eating def food, he should take dmg similar to a pld. At the time, a good war/mnk was just as good as a pld/war in overall....better for some pts, not as good for others. Though pld is probably better now due to the last 2 changes made to shield.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Because I hate gimps, and that's what WAR/MNK is for most of EXP.

Just because you hate gimps, huh? That doesn't seem like a great reason to slam a subjob choice just because it isn't the one that you prefer. I don't plan on taking Warrior past 37, but I do plan on using Monk as a sub. If I did take it past that, what exactly would I be missing out on if I decided to sub Monk as opposed Ninja or Thief? (aside from the obvious)

[Siber]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Just because you hate gimps, huh? That doesn't seem like a great reason to slam a subjob choice just because it isn't the one that you prefer. I don't plan on taking Warrior past 37, but I do plan on using Monk as a sub. If I did take it past that, what exactly would I be missing out on if I decided to sub Monk as opposed Ninja or Thief? (aside from the obvious)

You'd be missing out on the obvious, which more than makes up for /mnk. Caspian was right, I know WAR/MNK can do well, but it takes more than most people can already muster for their current job to play the subjob correctly. As a generality, it's inferior when put in most users hands. I used war/mnk all the way to 30, and offered it as a sub up to 37 along with /thf and /nin, so it has nothing to do with whether or not I prefer it. It's just a question of what does the best in what situation, and a war tanking in exp isn't a highly occuring situation.

Clyde, as I said if a party is desperate, they'll get a war/mnk to tank, but why do that if you can get a PLD and then a war/thf or war/nin instead? More damage and a superior tank, thus a more efficient and higher EXP earning party. To tank nearly as well as a PLD, even in the past, the WAR would still have to give up some attack gear for defense and +vit gear. If tanks are in short supply, go for the war/mnk, but otherwise avoid it for a better party setup.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

So I'd only be missing out on a damage spike during SCs or a possible dual wield option. If I were to take Warrior past 40 I think I'd go with Thief as a sub.

[Caspian]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

A. your best bet is to offer multiple subs. This way you can play it however is needed by the party.
B. /THF is fine, but you'll be competing for only a DD job. With optional /NIN and /MNK (if you know how to play it properly) you can also market yourself as a tank or DD.
Basically, versatility is key. Do your best to keep both weapons leveled. (Do as I say not as I do, I kinda left G. axe by the wayside b/c I only took war to 37.) If you plan to go as /MNK, then keep some def food on you if you are asked to tank. (The VIT and extra HP are useless if you aren't tanking, id you're just dd'ing then you should never be hit enough to warrant all that extra hp)

[dirtyclown]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Agreed. Versatility is always a good thing, but the way alot of attitudes are in this game, I doubt most people would care if you only leveled Ninja to use as a sub. I don't have any plans to take it past 37 at the moment, and I'm going to be taking it from 30 to 37 with my static, so we'll work something out. Who knows though, I might go completely insane and decide to level Warrior one day. If I do, I plan on leveling any possible subs beforehand.

[Caspian]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Understood. Again, do as I say, not as I do. I only lvl'd mnk to 13 so I quit subbing it at around 25 or so. I knew I'd be hard pressed to find any pt's that wanted anything other than /nin, so I just quit worrying about it and knocked out the last few levels.

[bside]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Bside, your multipliers are off too.

L.10 NIN | Dual Weild I | 10% reduction in Delay
L.25 NIN | Dual Weild II | 15% reduction in Delay
L.45 NIN | Dual Weild III | 25% reduction in Delay
L.65 NIN | Dual Weild IV | 30% reduction in Delay

Ninja Chainmail adds 5%, Suppanomimi adds 5% (though I have reason to believe it adds less for NIN mains.)

The most you can have when subbed is DWII (15%) + Suppanomimi to bring it up to 20%. There's also Sarashi, but Sarashi sucks (1%).

yeah, u r right. i don't know why i came up w/ the numbers i posted.

just as a side note, NIN's relic legs add another 5, while most ppl prefer Byakko for overall haste.

[ZQM]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

You know what'd be awesome, too? The return of WAR/SAM. With the changes to TP, and Store TP II, you could do Break -> Meditate -> 2 hits -> WS. That's right, as long as the first WS lands, you only need to land two hits afterwards. Plus, there's that new multi-hit Great Axe coming out...if the latent effect trigger is reasonable, there's a good chance you'd be able to do the second WS after only one attack round.

EDIT: In retrospect, WAR/SAM could already WS after only 2 hits. Guess I should've done the math for how it was before. I feel stupid now XD

I often go /SAM in EXP, it's decent but not amazing. With a full haste build I'm able to get 100% TP in about ~20-25 seconds, but as WAR/NIN with Ridill I get TP at the same rate with more DoT and better WS. It's still nice though, really underrated. I generally do more then WAR/NINs who use Axe+Joyeuse with my Great Axe. Wish I had /DRG finished to use that instead of /SAM, but oh well. /THF is really bad at lv75 for EXP (Still best G.axe sub on most HNMs though) since it hinders you to a 1 minute timer and you'll gain TP more then twice as fast as it.

Also to that one ninja, sad truth is though, Utsusemi IS broken. Being able to go full offensive while having the best damage migration in the game is flat out broken, plain and simple. Even on most high-tier HNM fights you have Ninjas and Warriors do close to, if not the, top damage in the alliance while tanking the mob. You should not be able to do that. I'm not saying they should nerf Utsusemi, I'd really hate if it they did (Since I'm both lv75 WAR and NIN). Doesn't change the fact that it is broken.

[Muu Yi]

Re: Diffence of War/Nin and War/thf

Comparing the War/Nin, War/Mnk, and even War/Thf tanks I've partied with over the levels, I'd say that all these jobs require a certain skill level to play properly. And that they can be either effective or ineffective depending on the player's equipment and skill.

The last week or so, since a lot of people on Titan have been leveling the 3 new Aht Uhrgan jobs, we've had to invite Warriors to main tank due to a lack of Ninja and Paladin tanks at higher levels. In one exp party, we replaced a same level Mithra Warrior/Ninja wearing defensive Eisen-gear for a Galka Warrior/Ninja wearing Brigandine, Peacock Charm, and dual Sniper Rings (-20 Def). The Galka was a much worse tank and was a bigger drain on my MP pool. Even though he had very expensive equipment - at least 10 million worth of accuracy gear. After repeatedly trying to convince him to take off his snipers (Even offering to let him borrow my venerers and Deft Ring) he eventually got fed up and forced disconnection. I managed to find a Paladin to replace him and things were a smoother after that.

Similarly, I've had parties where a Warrior/Monk main tank managed hate superbly and didn't take too much damage, while still performing good damage with their Great Axe. And then I've had parties where Warrior/Monk never used Boost or Defender, and died at least 5 times because they took far too much damage.

These experiences reinforced my viewpoint on tanking: That it doesn't matter as much what job you are tanking as, if you know how to take advantage of all your defensive resources you should do well or at least passably. But if you don't, then it doesn't matter so much what job you are - you will tank poorly or not as well as you possibly could. The Warrior job itself is a versatile enough job to be able to tank or deal damage no matter what subjob they choose to use. However, depending on their equipment and skill level they can either excel at one, both, or neither.

This is not completely related, but to my chagrin I found out later on that the Paladin tank we used to replace the disconnected War/Nin did not know how to use Cover. We had a Scorpion pop on the party while we were fighting a Crawler. It kept using Wild Rage so I casted Divine Seal Curaga 2 and then ran behind the Paladin and told him at least 3 times to use Cover. But he never did and I finally died to a 900 damage Death Scissor. :D Asides from that however, he was a decent Paladin tank.