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  • A new use for /NIN

    As everyone knows, WAR/NIN is a very popular job combination for a few reasons. It's usually because of Dual Weild and Utsusemi, which help maximize damage dealt while minimizing damage taken, and gives a lot of flexbility. Well, after some experimentation I've found a new use for /NIN: The Ninjutsu debuffs. No, I don't mean Hojo and Kurayami. I'm talking about Doton, Suiton, Raiton, Huton, Hyoton, and Katon. What's so great about them? They just do little to no damage and take four seconds to cast, right? Well, as you probably already know they lower the enemy's elemental resistances. What you probably didn't know is that they give -30 resistance for 15 seconds, and more importantly, the effect is guaranteed.

    That's right, the effect cannot be resisted, no matter your level, the mob's level, your INT, the mob's INT, your Ninjutsu skill, or even if the enemy has a Barspell on against the ninjutsu's element. But how much is 30 resistance? To put it in perspective, a Threnody gives -50 resistance, -55 if the BRD uses a Threnody +1 instrument. Ancient Magic also gives -30 for 15 seconds. Also, through more testing I've discovered that every character has hidden resistance stats, and that those resistance stats are equal in value to the cap of a C-ranked skill. -30 resistance is downright crippling.

    Now that brings us to the next point. Why do it? Why waste four seconds on an effect that's only going to last fifteen? Simple: Skillchains and Magic Bursts. At first glance, Skillchains do random and inconsistent damage. That's not true; skillchains are as consistent as spells are - they have a fixed damage. Even a "1st tier" (each consecutive skillchain is stronger than the last, I call these tiers for ease of reference) Level 1 skillchains will do 50% of the closing WS's damage - and that's nothing to scoff at, especially considering the damage a WAR can do.

    The problem is, Skillchains, like all forms of magic, are prone to being resisted, which cuts down its effectiveness sharply. Resists on skillchains can be observed even on EP/DC mobs on elements they're neutral to, which says a lot for the probabilities of an IT resisting. Moreover, the more damaging your WS is, and the higher the tier and level of the skillchain you're closing, the more damage is at stake. That aside, lowering the mob's resistance also helps ensure a full Magic Burst (it's not a common thing, but resists still do happen on MBs! Nothing's uglier than seeing the BLM's MP being wasted, and having the mob still standing when you needed it to be dead to keep the chain going.) Those 4 seconds of casting the Ninjutsu can literally ensure hundreds of points in damage. That's far more than trying to get the most out of your WS's stat modifiers will do.

    Of course, I'm sure Level 2 and 3 skillchains cause some confusion, since they have 2 and 4 elements respectively. I've tested this out, as well. A Level 60 BLM couldn't land Stun (not even with Elemental Seal) or Shock on a Too Weak Thunder Elemental no matter how hard he tried, and his Thunders didn't break 10 damage. On the other hand, when he closed Fragmentation (Wind/Lightning) the damage went completely unresisted. Likewise, his Aeros would always do full damage. I've done the same thing on Light Elementals - Flash won't stick, but Fusion does full damage, and I've done full damage Distortions on Thunder Elementals as well. It seems safe to me to assume that multielemental skillchains deal damage as a whole, and the resist rate is set by the element the enemy has least resistance to. Therefore, this trick still applies to Level 2 and Level 3 skillchains.

    I feel that every /NIN should try to implement this into their game. This is essentially a very big performance boost for very little cost. Any thoughts?

  • #2
    Re: A new use for /NIN

    That's very interesting, now I'm wondering how that would affect using a SMN/NIN and using Suiton: Ichi then using Ramuh's Chaos Strike against a mob? I'll test this out tonight.
    Hacked on 9/9/09
    FFXIAH - Omniblast

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    • #3
      Re: A new use for /NIN

      Just like on the thf/nin thread.

      Too much timing
      I would get the damage + TP with a swing that would do more damage.

      The only time I can find it useful is if you're starting a SC, thus the follow up is almost garanteed.

      Even more problematic is that if a war/nin is turner, or trick buddy, casting a scroll that might do nothing is going to lower your utsusemi rebuff speed, and likely get pounded on with berserk+hate on your rear.

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      • #4
        Re: A new use for /NIN

        Yeah I just read another thread that was basically the same thing. Too much timing perhaps for skill chains, but I'm wondering about the solo aspect for a smn to do more damage that is unresisted or in fact more than ordinary. I think I'll go test this out on some sky birds or some weapons in Ro'mave tonight.
        Hacked on 9/9/09
        FFXIAH - Omniblast

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        • #5
          Re: A new use for /NIN

          Originally posted by Omniblast
          That's very interesting, now I'm wondering how that would affect using a SMN/NIN and using Suiton: Ichi then using Ramuh's Chaos Strike against a mob? I'll test this out tonight.
          It'd be the same damage, give or take the randomness of blood pact damage. Despite how it looks, chaotic strike is physical (and stun) only. But Flaming Crush has fire elemental damage on it, if you're wanting to play around with elemental debuffs and level 70 blood pacts.
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          • #6
            Re: A new use for /NIN

            I think you should compile this and make a sticky armando, just hopefully by the time SE figures out this slight advantage it isn't patched

            Main Jobs- Rdm 60 Smn 31 Bst 28 Blu 27

            The Quetzlcoatl Gimp's SS Gallery

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            • #7
              Re: A new use for /NIN

              This is a horrible idea but if it makes you feel cool go ahead and do it. Forgo 12-24 tp to hopefully decrease odds of resistance of a spell for blms.
              Sky:O Sea:O Koga: 3/5 Melee: 1/5
              http://manapool-ls.com - Bahamut Endgame LS

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              • #8
                Re: A new use for /NIN

                i also think its not worth it. its fine if you arent not participating in the renkei. like it is for brd or nin to do this right before the renkei goes off. i used to do this myself for the mb but the thing is for me, i usually solo my ws and it doesnt matter if i dont have tp so i have no issues throwing it out. plus i was using Ni spells. it also just ensures a full dmg mb. it doesnt increase the dmg done either. not sure if you stated that or not thought id make that point.

                just doesnt seem its crippling enough to warrant losing tp or holding up the chain for. thats just me.
                Omni@Remora: NIN75 RNG75 MNK75 COR75 BST64 BRD53
                ♪♫ San d'Oria Complete ♪♫ ZM Complete ♪♫ CoP Complete ♪♫ AM Complete ♪♫

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                • #9
                  Re: A new use for /NIN

                  Originally posted by Tirrock
                  It'd be the same damage, give or take the randomness of blood pact damage. Despite how it looks, chaotic strike is physical (and stun) only. But Flaming Crush has fire elemental damage on it, if you're wanting to play around with elemental debuffs and level 70 blood pacts.
                  Yeah I was thinking flaming crush at first, but I remember Ramuh's Chaotic Strike had lightning when he was using it. Maybe it was just for looks?
                  Hacked on 9/9/09
                  FFXIAH - Omniblast

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                  • #10
                    Re: A new use for /NIN

                    This is a horrible idea but if it makes you feel cool go ahead and do it. Forgo 12-24 tp to hopefully decrease odds of resistance of a spell for blms.
                    Ichi ninjutsu take 4 seconds to cast. 4 seconds = 240 Delay = 6.4 TP. TP is a moot point anyways because that TP would have been used up in the skillchain. The main focus is ensuring the skillchain damage anyways, and the damage you save can easily exceed a normal swing (which, by the way, is prone to missing altogether.)

                    I can see timing being an argument, but time? Four seconds isn't THAT much. Plus, if you're closing the skillchain, the skillchain can start mid-cast, so you delay the party only about...2 seconds.

                    just doesnt seem its crippling enough to warrant losing tp or holding up the chain for. thats just me.
                    If mobs gain elemental resistance at the same rate as us (one would assume so) then -30 essentially gives it the resistance of a mob 9-10 levels lower, or about 5-6 levels lower once you go into the 50+ range. That seems fairly crippling to me.

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                    • #11
                      Re: A new use for /NIN

                      Say player 1 starts off their chain, as soon as he's complete with his WS he can start casting his jujutsu, and weaken the mob, as soon as player 2 sees player 1 finish their chain, he waits 3 seconds, before initializing his, as his is completing the jujutsu would have gone off anyways. By the time the 2nd player starts his ws, the mage would have started casting. In the end of this whole scenario, the magic burst would have gone off and the poor tarutaru blm would have accumulated so much hate that he would die. ^_^. I like this.
                      Hacked on 9/9/09
                      FFXIAH - Omniblast

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                      • #12
                        Re: A new use for /NIN

                        4 seconds is the cast time only. what about the cool down time it takes for you to get out of that animation and go into attacking? or doing something else? its not EXACTLY 4 seconds. theres that unaccounted for lag after using an abilty/spell. you cant always equate everything into hard numbers. it might calculate into 6.4 tp but it might be 13tp or even 24tp with double attack going off. like i said, if you yourself are participating in the renkei, dropping a cumbersome ichi spell is hardly worth it imo. what if you are trying to turn the mob as a war does very often and you get interrupted while applying ninjutsu? thats a wasted 4+ seconds and you get nothing out of it.

                        crippling? i think we are thinking of the word in different contexts. more efficient yes, crippling, no. on xp mobs you are usually fighting mobs that are 3-6 levels about you? if assuming they gain resistance like us you still need to take in account the elemental of the monster. toramas will always be very strong against distortion type attacks. crabs will always be strong against fire attacks, etc. we dont know enough about this to gauge whether or not a -30 from XXXXX resistance even makes a difference.
                        Omni@Remora: NIN75 RNG75 MNK75 COR75 BST64 BRD53
                        ♪♫ San d'Oria Complete ♪♫ ZM Complete ♪♫ CoP Complete ♪♫ AM Complete ♪♫

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                        • #13
                          Re: A new use for /NIN

                          I to am curious about why time was brought into this, if the effect lasts for 15 seconds wouldnt the senario go something like:

                          Opener: I have 110% tp ready for skill chain

                          closer: <begins casting debuff>
                          /wait 1
                          closer: I have 130% tp ready for skill chain

                          Opener: Using <insert ws> now
                          /wait 2
                          debuff done
                          /wait 1

                          closer: Using <insert closing weapon skill>

                          mage: using <appropriate spell here> for magic burst

                          I mean isnt the tp going to be used anyway so what is the difference between 130% and 142 or 164%? I know that some skills have damage multipliers with more tp but is it that noticeable with 12-24%?

                          I would argue though that the over all effect wouldnt be worth the gil assosiated with using the tools, cause unless you are adding double or triple the dmg a normal weapon dmg is then i, personally, dont believe it is worth the cost. But that is just me.


                          RNG67 BRD66 THF55 NIN35 WHM31 RDM35 WAR24 PLD30

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                          • #14
                            Re: A new use for /NIN

                            Interesting information Armando. Overall, I'm somewhere between the two main opinions here. Sometimes it isn't worth it. If you can get that extra attack (or two) and the TP that goes with it, chances are missing that debuff won't hurt anyone. However, under certain circumstances, it might be useful. For instance, if there are multiple bursts for this particular SC, especially RDM or wyverns, it might be useful. If the party is uncertain about being able to continue the chain. If an extra tough monster is pulled or there is a link. Helping to guarantee damage that one extra swing (which may or may not happen in the next 4 seconds) can't do may very well be a great idea.

                            I think the point here is that /NIN has a tool available to them that is absolute. The potency isn't halved with the level of your subjob. For all intents and purposes, this means it is something players can exploit. Imagine leveling with a monster that is notoriously hard to land paralyze on. You begin casting before it comes within melee range, losing less than 4 seconds, to make it more dependable. That's less MP the enfeebler uses, less MP the healer uses, perhaps even less Shihei you use, and starting with the correct element spell takes off just a bit more damage than usual.

                            The benefits aren't easily tangible, and reasons not to use this are valid. But I think situationally this could be extremely beneficial to overall party effectiveness.
                            Last edited by Balodoth; 03-22-2006, 05:44 PM. Reason: Grammar
                            4 out of 3 people have a problem with fractions. . .

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                            • #15
                              Re: A new use for /NIN

                              Originally posted by Omniblast
                              Yeah I was thinking flaming crush at first, but I remember Ramuh's Chaotic Strike had lightning when he was using it. Maybe it was just for looks?
                              "Just for looks" is how I definte about half of the blood pacts.
                              (Hello - My name is Whispering Wind)

                              It very well could have lightning...I don't remember it enough. I'd be very surprised to find out that Chaotic Strike did indeed have a magic damage part. I'd be equally surprised that Flaming Crush didn't. Easiest way to find out is to check the help scroll text at the top of the screen when you select the ability. I'm pretty sure it mentions fire damage on flaming crush, so it probably would mention it on other blood pacts too.

                              Anyway...this is getting pretty off topic, even for me.
                              ( '-')/ Warrior job discussion.

                              Issue at hand:

                              I'm pretty much in the middle of the road on this too. I'm still not even convinced that -30 fire resistance would be the same as it's fire resistance being equal to that of a monster 8 or 9 levels lower. (Or 5ish post 50.)

                              My major issue with it is: If even -7 is about equal to 2 levels of resistance...shouldn't the inverse be true? A lot of melees have a good amount of fire resistance, thanks to +STR rings, yet they don't see a real effect of the fire resistances gained. Not to mention bar-spells... Let's say a barwatera spell gives +75 resistance. This should make people exping pretty much unstoppable... since it's about 20 levels of resistances.

                              [Edit: Cut off the rest of my post... It ended with me trying to figure out what's missing, and a lot of writing that ultimately ended up with me not being able to figure anything out. So I figured I'd save 5 minutes of everybody's time and just summarize it here, instead of leave the post as it is.]
                              Last edited by Tirrock; 03-23-2006, 01:19 AM. Reason: Removing a LOT of worthless text...
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