Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

From me paying attention to things ( a lot of melees at the lvl I am at haven't grinded 75 lvls with RDM, so I am very chat log sensitive) The offhand weapon does full damage but only adds 1 TP.

Period. TY LMNOP, I was going to say the same thing, but with Wasp Sting on EP mobs. My dagger is only 153 and I'm facing mobs that give my sword skill at 213 >.> So It's kinda like having 0 skill, lol.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Nope, it gives full TP. Read the edit on my above post ^^

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Nope, it gives full TP. Read the edit on my above post ^^

You do NOT get full TP from the extra swing, dude. I -Always- end up with 1 more TP dual wielding, as opposed to not dual weilding. There is no way you're seeing full TP and my character is somehow broken.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

So how do you explain a dual-weilded (Knife/Club) Wasp Sting for 5 TP, followed by one that did 10 TP (Knife/Knife,) on a 46 THF/NIN on level 36-38 Evil Weapons? It's pretty obvious her extremely-underlevelled (I forget the exact skill level but it was under 50) club missed. And if the offhand hit missed, and she only got 5 TP from the knife swing that did land, then the first hit is NOT the combined dual-weilded TP.

Plus, you don't seen to have any problems accepting Lmnop's test's results...

[Tokitoki]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

You do get full TP for teh extra hit. Dancing Edge with SAM, WAR, etc etc subbed gives 9 TP. 5 TP for first dagger hit, +1 for each hit after. Dancing Edge is 5 hits.
Dancing Edge with Dual Wield you get 14 TP, 5 for first hit, 5 for offhand dagger attack, +1 for each hit after that. This is not counting Triple attack or Double Attack. And this works for all WS.

Raging Axe with /NIN sub at 48 (cause damn PTs wont elt me sub THF -.-) gives 13 TP. 6 for the first axe, 6 for the offhand axe, 1 for the 2nd attack from the WS description ("Delivers a two-fold attack").

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Viking Axes and Aggressor may make Shield Break unnecessary *for you*, but the -eva affects all DDs in the party, many of whom don't have Viking Axes *or* Aggressor. Like Warcry, Shield Break enhances other party members' damage as well as your own.

While Shield Break essentially solves evasion problems while the effect is working, by no means is it a crutch to rely upon for any melee after a certain point. Even ignoring the fact that the debuff can be resisted and doesn't have a very long duration anyway, sacrificing rampage for it is not a smart move.

And don't forget that most damage is done by normal hits, not WS - I've parsed several parties where the DD with the lowest WS damage did the most overall damage. (Often a monk, but not always.) Damage dealers are there to do *damage*, TP is only one means of doing damage and you shouldn't neglect other factors that contribute to your overall damage output.

The higher the level the less true this is. Even an SC starter like DRG can get 60/40 on DoT/WS, and if melees start using multihits on VTs most of their damage is going to come from WS. Offhanding Joy-toy for TP is a completely solid strategy.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

It's a 1:30 minute duration with 100 TP, twice as much if the mob is weak to ice. That's enough time for 10 swings, and as such you can expect a Double Attack, so on average, 11 swings. It takes 9 swings for a Great Axe to get 100 TP. It's not terribly hard keeping it up 90% of the time on a mob due to what it does for your accuracy. However, it is true that there's a trade-off. It's situational, really, but in the situations that it can be applied, it's a godsend. I wouldn't know, honestly, because like I said, I stopped WAR at 45, but if you have someone else to close skillchains for big damage, sure, why not? At least, I know below 45 you can use it quite liberally.

Oh and thanks for confirming the dual-weilded TP gain issue, Tokitoki.

[lionx]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Shield Break => Torama yes please >_>;

Raging Axe with /NIN sub at 48 (cause damn PTs wont elt me sub THF -.-) gives 13 TP. 6 for the first axe, 6 for the offhand axe, 1 for the 2nd attack from the WS description ("Delivers a two-fold attack").

This is true when my Raging Axe does good damage when i lvled WAR to 40. So it does give you more TP if you hit twice. However i never really noticed since everyone told me to sub NIN as well..-.-; But i do notice sometimes i get 6TP and sometimes i get alot more O_o;

[Deviantkat]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Armando, I've spent ages arguing many of your points with people. I like to think I've done my math on the matters, but I must say, you've got a few more results in your posts that I hadn't even considered. I'm glad to see such a solid display of evidence to show people that Dual Wield is not as godly as it is made out to be. In fact, if I had the time to test it out, I'd even go to the lengths of attempting to give good evidence that WAR/NIN is only really equal to WAR/THF up til about level 65 (Even I'm willing to admit that opening Light with Mistral Axe beats closing Darkness with Full Break).

Even Dual Wield II and Rampage really aren't all people make them out to be. Rampage is nothing special in exp, really. SATA Raging Rush minces it in average damage, unless you've got a BRD, when they are at best equal. I really should crack out the massive archive of parsing evidence I've generated and write something on it sometime. We'll see... ^^

In any case Armando, thank you for this well organized, well thought out examination of Dual Wield.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

It was my pleasure XD