Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Wow.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

You know, I can't prove anything just by typing. No offense, but you either have to take my word for it, or try it yourself. I'm not about to go make a video just to prove Smash Axe doubles in damage when dual-weilded. It's not even that hard to test. Try it a few times single-weilded on a level 10-ish mob (so as to not one-shot them with the first hit, because that would cause the second hit to be skipped altogether,) then try it a few times dual-weilded. With Berserk you shouldn't have any problems keeping your Attack capped on a mob that low level if it isn't already capped. Like I said, you either take my word for it or test it yourself, else we're going to keep going in a circle.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I'm actually wowing at the fact that you're missing something major...

On a 2 hit weaponskill, that's 2 chances to double attack, where as hard slash, and slice, have just one.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

But Double Attack has a 10-12% (impossible to get a fixed number because these are estimates and averages people have made over many recorded swings) activation rate. That's only a 20% chance you'll get ONE Double Attack in your WS. Not reliable at all. And when it does Double Attack, there's a jump in damage which is noticeable, and there's a change in TP which is also noticeable. Also, if Hard Slash or Slice Double Attack, that extra attack will be twice as painful compared to a Double Attack on Raging Axe, and thus you'd need to Double Attack both hits on Raging Axe to compensate, and there's a lower chance of Double Attacking both hits (what, 5%?) than there is for Hard Slash or Slice to Double Attack their one hit.

EDIT: Plus, since we're dealing with a Raging Axe that only has 2 hits, and there's only a 20% chance of Double Attacking one of those hits, in theory, it could match Slice/Hard Slash's raw damage what, every once out of every 5 attempts?

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I just tested it. Each time i got 12 TP return from Smash Axe, dual weilded. Which means that you get 11TP (it DOES base it on the delay from both rather than just the one axe) from the first hit.

Which proves the way i was figuring my rampages. 11 from the first hit, +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 = 16 return.

This means you do NOT get full TP from this supposed "extra hit", but you just get 1 extra TP just because you have another weapon. Also, I did 150- 300ish with Dual wield, and 150- 300ish without dual wield, on the same mobs.


edit: I just did a few more dual wielded, averaged about 150 a hit.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Um...no...you don't have enough evidence to conclude it's splitting it up at 11+1 rather than 6.28 + 6.28. It's quite possible to miss one of the two hits and end up with just 6 TP.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Um...no...you don't have enough evidence to conclude it's splitting it up at 11+1 rather than 6.28 + 6.28. It's quite possible to miss one of the two hits and end up with just 6 TP.

Dude out of like 20 Smash axes, dual wielded, it returned 12 TP.

Not everything requires 29035839024869586 sentence paragraphs. You're over thinking.

Also, on rampage i get 16TP return, which also supports my belief. 11 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

You're not going to miss a hit on Smash Axe on a level 10 mob. Hell, it's rare to miss WS on normal IT mobs as it is. I don't even see where the heck the logic would be in splitting it up as 11+1 and not having the extra hit count for damage.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

You're not going to miss a hit on Smash Axe on a level 10 mob. Hell, it's rare to miss WS on normal IT mobs as it is. I don't even see where the heck the logic would be in splitting it up as 11+1 and not having the extra hit count for damage.

You've got a gift.

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

You could check mob TP to settle the argument, but in either case it's a stupid discussion because a.) the supposed extra hit never counted for shit on dual wield WS and b.) it's hard to prove either side.

[Karinya]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

And yes, I'm sticking to that 20-50 level range. I'd have a LOT of parragraphs to edit if I didn't, just to take into account that Dual Weild II is 15% "haste" and not 10% XD Not to mention Viking Axes and Rampage come into play; Viking Axes, coupled with Aggressor, sort of make Shield Break obsolete during the time you dual weild them, and Rampage outdamages Sturmwind. Then when you throw in a Joyeuse and Suppanomimi (5% DW haste) it's impossible to deny TP would come faster.

Viking Axes and Aggressor may make Shield Break unnecessary *for you*, but the -eva affects all DDs in the party, many of whom don't have Viking Axes *or* Aggressor. Like Warcry, Shield Break enhances other party members' damage as well as your own.

Also, Joyeuse gives faster TP for you, but also for the monster (while dealing crap damage), so I hope your party doesn't mind the extra WS coming back at you. Hitting weakly for TP gain has significant downsides.

And don't forget that most damage is done by normal hits, not WS - I've parsed several parties where the DD with the lowest WS damage did the most overall damage. (Often a monk, but not always.) Damage dealers are there to do *damage*, TP is only one means of doing damage and you shouldn't neglect other factors that contribute to your overall damage output.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Funny, I was always under the impression nobody wants Shield Break at those levels (if it were up to me, I'd do it...but I'm not going to level WAR anymore, as I'm going PLD 'til 75 first.) Good to see there's still people that can appreciate it. Joyeuse isn't what I'd consider "crap damage" though. To my knowledge, that double attack kicks in very frequently, so the damage would rack up fast. And by 75 WAR gets a few Subtle Blow traits from NIN sub, and still doesn't swing anywhere as fast. You wouldn't notice a difference in extra TP moves until the mob's under 20% of its health, though. Fact is, the mob's got over 100 TP way over half the time. If the mob is under 20%, then the difference would be significant...but then again, that's like telling a NINs and THFs not to exploit the 5% TP floor, and WARs to stick to two-handers. I can see where you're coming from, but VERY few people are going to want to slow down their TP gain to slow down the mob's TP. And even then...it's just not practical. The mob's STILL going to get 100 TP very quickly. When you consider it gets your TP +3, and 10 TP for each nuke...it just takes two to three attack rounds from each melee and a nuke here and there.

[kuu]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Umm people go war/nin not for (or just I guess)coolness or whatever. It's call staying alive.

A SA+ berserk+ WS = easy way to get beaten within an inch of your life.

AT SATA post 60, we can talk about other things, but earily levels, hate distribution is very much againist a war/thf, and if you cancel that berserk, it's a shame.

the 3-6 shadows gives you that hate buffer. It also makes you part time tank, but that's going into deeply.

A war/thf has a a much thinner line then war/nin simply because you can give it, but can't take it as well.

[Lmnop]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

with DD nin builds attacking non-stop, I never thought Joyeuse tp feeding seemed like a problem. But I also always thought the "RDMs melee just adds tp" arguement was pathetic too.

Zyph

I think you may be right about offhanded swing only giving 1 tp. I've seen arguments for both sides. I kinda have a feeling that it used to be full tp and was somewhat recently nerfed to 1 tp to fit better with the old tp nerf.

Here's how I proved the offhand swing adds Damage:
main hand a bronze dagger or something really rediculously weak like that. Low level, war equippable dagger. I went to Jugner Forest, but you may want to hit saur[tab key] champaign or something since I tested this in my 40s.

First: use wasp sting multiple times single wielded. Revel in the 20 dmg Wasp Stings. then you start dual wielding. Note that your axe itself is easily surpassing 100 dmg normal swings. I guarentee you that when you start doing Wasp Stings with axe offhanded, you'll see your damage hit at least the region of your normal offhand swing. Indeed, when I did it, it was pretty easy to see that my offhanding axe Wasp Stings were doing normal Wasp Sting damage + average normal axe swing damage.

And for the love of God, don't try to prove anything on the account of Rampage. The most terribly random and unpredictable WS in the game.

Double Post Edited:
the taru war/thf I was partying with last night had no qualms about being trick buddy for me (thf at the moment). It was one of those parties you'll never forget because it was so awesome. And when the nin started the fragmentation for the war, I knew it was time to prime SATA 'cuz SA Sturm is guarenteed to turn mob for me. Thing to remember is that blinks aren't all that. People CAN take a hit. it's amazing how a cure 2 and a regen really patch up any melee that held hate for 2 attack rounds. While you're right, the blinks = survival, they just aren't needed in those levels when mobs don't even hit hard enough.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Thank you, Lmnop. I gotta admit, that was pretty clever, and a far better test than just doing Smash Axe. I think Zyph may have been one-shotting the mobs he targetted. However, I'm still very inclined to think that both weapons strike independently and gain full TP independently. If it worked like Zyph says (first swing gains TP equivalent to the combined TP of both weapons, second swing gives 1 TP) then all dual-weilded WS would give 1 more TP than normal. If only I still had a single-handed weapon with 0 skill, I could use it in my offhand for dual-weilded WS and try to force the off-hand swing to miss...

EDIT: My lovely girlfriend volunteered to do this, since she only had 46 Club skill. I tanked an Evil Weapon, she dual-weilded a dagger + club, and tried Wasp Sting. She only got 5 TP, which means the Club missed. For confirmation, she did Wasp Sting again with double daggers and got 10 TP back.