Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

[Alontier]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Ah, but what about WS? Dual-weilding gives you an extra hit in your WS.

Sorry to somewhat hijack your good post Armando.
But the thing that cought my eye was this (quote above).
You said in the WS, so a single hit WS becomes a double-hit one?
Too sleepy to look into this myself atm but would be nice to wake up and get some confirmation.

Also, (damn my foggy mind), was double/triple attack able to trigger on WS hits?

[SelfdestButton]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Ah well, good enough. Lacking the luxury of testing this out at this moment I'll just take your word for it. My mistake comes from the 5 TP floor exhibited by katanas and knives I suppose, since you wouldn't observe a reduction past that point.
I never said the TP advantage wasn't neglibible! I described it as "statistically faster" as a sort of disclaimer you know, not "actually faster"... Is it really three equations like that? I thought it was an asymptotal relation or some such convoluted mess.

I assume your frame of reference is in the 20-50 level range, in which I have absolutely no disagreement with it. Attacks occur in integers and that can give Gaxe an advantage in number of swings taken yes, like that TP/delay ratio is not worth mentioning and apparently Dual wield reduces your TP gain (quite a shocker, really), war/nin's gimp at early levels but that's not exactly news to me and you now...
Well, I assume that was the frame of reference you're sticking to, so like I said I don't disagree. Past 50 war/nin has a TP advantage a good deal greater than what you're describing though.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Sorry to somewhat hijack your good post Armando.
But the thing that cought my eye was this (quote above).
You said in the WS, so a single hit WS becomes a double-hit one?
Too sleepy to look into this myself atm but would be nice to wake up and get some confirmation.

Also, (damn my foggy mind), was double/triple attack able to trigger on WS hits?

Yes, a single-hit WS becomes a double-hit one. However, the extra hit seems to have a TP multiplier set at x1. For example, Raging Axe's hits have a TP multiplier set at x1 at 100 TP, so that extra hit theoretically increases Raging Axe's damage by 33% (since it goes from being a two-hitter to a three-hitter.) At 300 TP, Raging Axe's hits' TP multiplier is x2, but that extra hit will remain at x1. Double Attacks also seem to have their TP multipliers fixed at x1. And yes, Double/Triple Attack can go off in WS. I once was finishing up on the last orb of a BCNM40 Steaming Sprouts run and asked them to let me close Fusion with Mighty Strikes (dual-weilded) Raging Axe. Basically, on a fluke I Double Attacked on two of the hits and ended up with a 600 damage Raging Axe and a 300 Fusion So yes, there is an extra initial hit involved in WS when you dual weild, and while the difference is noticeable, Dual Weilded Raging/Avalanche Axe still can't compete with Sturmwind or SA Shield Break, and Shield Break's Evasion -40 will work wonders for everyone's damage.

Ah well, good enough. Lacking the luxury of testing this out at this moment I'll just take your word for it. My mistake comes from the 5 TP floor exhibited by katanas and knives I suppose, since you wouldn't observe a reduction past that point.
I never said the TP advantage wasn't neglibible! I described it as "statistically faster" as a sort of disclaimer you know, not "actually faster"... Is it really three equations like that? I thought it was an asymptotal relation or some such convoluted mess.

I assume your frame of reference is in the 20-50 level range, in which I have absolutely no disagreement with it. Attacks occur in integers and that can give Gaxe an advantage in number of swings taken yes, like that TP/delay ratio is not worth mentioning and apparently Dual wield reduces your TP gain (quite a shocker, really), war/nin's gimp at early levels but that's not exactly news to me and you now...
Well, I assume that was the frame of reference you're sticking to, so like I said I don't disagree. Past 50 war/nin has a TP advantage a good deal greater than what you're describing though.

Well, technically, there's two formulas, since any weapon with a Delay of 180 or less gets 5 TP, you don't need a formula for that I'll copy-paste them below for reference. But, yes, the fact that they can push their delay under 180 is the reason NINs and THFs actually gain TP faster with Dual Weild (or THF with a Hornetneedle.) Actually, if I'm doing the math right, with Dual Weild IV (35%) a NIN can hit the 150 Delay cap the game has on weapons on any of their Katana, not to mention they have Suppanomimi available to them for an extra 5% Dual Weild haste. Throw in Haste (the spell) into the equation, and you have a ridiculous TP gain that could potentially get you 100 TP in under 50 seconds if you don't miss or stop.

And actually, Great Axe is at a slight disadvantage when it comes to building TP. The TP formula for weapons of 480 or more delay uses 12 as a constant (a weapon of 480 Delay will have give 12 TP under both formula) but gives them a slower TP gain for each Delay point that exceeds 480. Great Axes of 504 Delay (most of them,) unfortunately, gain 12.3 TP per hit and ride that borderline where you fall short of 100 (in this case by 1.6 TP) and have to wait another swing (which is quite hurtful because of GA's Delay) to exceed 100. If they had 520 Delay so they got 12.5 TP instead, they'd reach 100 TP in 8 swings (69 seconds, not far from axes,) rather than 9 swings of 504 Delay (75 seconds.) Between the random missing, Double Attack kicking in randomly as well, and Shield Break boosting accuracy, it's not much of a problem, but it's still kind of a let-down.

And yes, I'm sticking to that 20-50 level range. I'd have a LOT of parragraphs to edit if I didn't, just to take into account that Dual Weild II is 15% "haste" and not 10% XD Not to mention Viking Axes and Rampage come into play; Viking Axes, coupled with Aggressor, sort of make Shield Break obsolete during the time you dual weild them, and Rampage outdamages Sturmwind. Then when you throw in a Joyeuse and Suppanomimi (5% DW haste) it's impossible to deny TP would come faster.

For reference, here are the TP rates:
Delay 150-180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180-480: [(Delay - 180)/256]*6 + 5
Delay 480-999: (Delay + 480)/80

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

It doesn't make it do more damage, it just gives you 1 extra TP at the end of a WS.

For example, you use rampage while dual weilding, it's still only 5 hits, no increased damage. But you end up with 1 extra TP just for having a second weapon.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Actually, it does have an extra hit. I'm sure you know that when you do a multi-hit WS, the first strike gets full TP and every subsequent strike gets 1 TP. When you do dual-weilded WS, you get full TP for both weapons, then 1 TP for every other swing. Single-weilded Rampage should return 11 TP (7 +1 +1 +1 +1) but dual-weilded Rampage with Dual Weild II will return 16 (6 +6 +1 +1 +1 +1.) Of course, Rampage damage varies incredibly because any of those 5 (or in this case 6) hits can miss, critical, and/or double attack. Heck, you could have a Rampage where you miss two hits but Double Attack two others, and as far as the TP is telling you, it was a perfectly normal, fully-hitting Rampage. But try it with Smash Axe and you'll double its damage to around that of a single-weilded 100 TP Raging Axe.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Trust me, you don't do more damage, you just get more TP return man, i've leveled warrior for a long time, across several characters. It does just as much damage with say, /MNK sub, than it does with /NIN, there is no difference.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Even if you didn't do more damage, you certainly don't get just 1 extra TP, you get full dual-weilded TP, and if you're getting extra TP, logic would tell you there's an extra hit involved I've played on my WAR for two years myself. Sure, I only got to 45, but it's exactly because of that that I had a LOT of chances to mess around while solo and test all these things out.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Even if you didn't do more damage, you certainly don't get just 1 extra TP, you get full dual-weilded TP, and if you're getting extra TP, logic would tell you there's an extra hit involved I've played on my WAR for two years myself. Sure, I only got to 45, but it's exactly because of that that I had a LOT of chances to mess around while solo and test all these things out.

No, logic wouldn't tell you an extra hit is involved. It's the same as a monk, a 1 hit WS is still a 1 hit weaponskill, but you get the extra TP from the other fist (even if it doesnt use the other fist in the WS) , because you cant fire off one fist without the other.

Also, as far as rampage goes. I'm pretty sure that on WS it figures your delay in as a whole, rather than just 1 axe. So you get 11 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 which would explain my and 16 with dual wield.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

Thus, it's actually two hits. If you can't use one fist without using the other, then the other is still being used, and you can't get TP if you hit for 0, so the other fist MUST be doing damage. MNK doesn't have even one single-hit WS. Not even Dragon Kick.

EDIT: Why would it figure delay as a whole? Delay is still independent on both weapons. The TP for them is calculated separately even when dual weilding, it's not calculated as a high-Delay weapon and then split evenly between both weapons. That's a significant difference because if it used the second formula, Dual Weilding weapons whose combined Delay would exceed 480 would actually give less TP than if their TP is figured independently using the formula for weapons with a Delay of 180 to 480.

http://wiki.ffxionline.com/index.php...n_Skill_Damage

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I KNOW there is a extra hit, have you not been reading what i'm saying? I'm saying you don't get full TP, you just get 1 extra TP, but no damage increase.

Don't you think SE would've thought of that before they put "Delivers 3 fold damage" on combo? technically yes, you do get a second hit on a 1 hit monk WS, but you do NOT get full damage for the other hit, or full TP. The game is programed to give you the minimum (1) just because the second hit cannot be avoided.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I'm sure the second hit can be avoided just as easily as you can add extra hits to a WS. Even if you couldn't avoid it, they could simply fix its modifiers so that it hits for 0, and thus it's a null hit that doesn't count. And I have been reading what you've been saying. You're saying there's an extra hit that's not doing damage, but you still get TP for. I'm saying if you get TP for a hit, it's doing damage. Plus, if Dual Weild didn't have an extra hit to aid all the lower level WARs with their Raging Axes, they'd do less damage and their WS wouldn't be able to compare AT ALL with Great Axe WS damage, and then you'd see a lot more disappointed dual weilders.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I'm sure the second hit can be avoided just as easily as you can add extra hits to a WS. Even if you couldn't avoid it, they could simply fix its modifiers so that it hits for 0, and thus it's a null hit that doesn't count. And I have been reading what you've been saying. You're saying there's an extra hit that's not doing damage, but you still get TP for. I'm saying if you get TP for a hit, it's doing damage. Plus, if Dual Weild didn't have an extra hit to aid all the lower level WARs with their Raging Axes, they'd do less damage and their WS wouldn't be able to compare AT ALL with Great Axe WS damage, and then you'd see a lot more disappointed dual weilders.

People dual wield for the coolness factor at those levels, raging axe doesn't compare to sturmwind. When you get unusually high damage, that's due to the mobs defense/evasion, or due to double attack.

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I know most people Dual Weild for coolness or because they think it's more effective, and I know that Raging Axe doesn't compare to Sturmwind, but a dual-weilded Raging Axe will match Slice/Hard Slash. Honestly, test it out with Flat Blade or Smash Axe. It effectively doubles their damage.

[Zyph]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

I know most people Dual Weild for coolness or because they think it's more effective, and I know that Raging Axe doesn't compare to Sturmwind, but a dual-weilded Raging Axe will match Slice/Hard Slash. Honestly, test it out with Flat Blade or Smash Axe. It effectively doubles their damage.

Hard slash is one hit, as is Slice....obviously at those levels 2 hits with an axe is comparible to one hit from a two handed weapon >_>

[Armando]

Re: Reasons why pre-50 Dual Weild isn't all that.

But Hard Slash and Slice have TP modifiers of x1.5. Hard Slash and Slice do NOT do normal damage, even if you were to add the stat modifiers onto the DMG. On the other hand, when you turn Raging Axe into a 3-hitter it can compete with them quite well.