opinions on how to tank

[Deviantkat]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Low IT chaining sure, but you can't tell me a higher IT is going to die in the time a WAR/NIN's 6 shadows run down. You'd need not just lots of firepower, but more or less a cannon party to accomplish that. If you're chaining ITs up to 4 and 5, they're low ITs, and you're probably getting some VTs along with them. The WAR/NIN's shadows will definately run out before an IT is dead. You can still chain very well with a tank taking serious damage, though. It just comes down to other factors than the tank at that point. It's not as efficient, healing wise, but it still may be the most effective way to do things depending on how long the WAR has to take damage after his/her shadows are down.

You can definately run a party like this, and well, you do have a point. One thing I did not take into account is that after a party plays for a bit together, its exp output can double sometimes once tactics that fit are worked out. With the right people you can make most party structures work well.

I don't deny that players nowadays have the experience to make random chaining parties work, as many of them do, but its more an issue that as you get into higher con mobs, WAR/NINs are forced to trade off damage for survivability unless they have an equal backup tank. It's just a technicality of the job when used in that way. When I argue against the viability of WAR/NIN for tanking, I really only argue against it being a MAIN tank. If there's another blink tank available so they can both act as backup tanks, as WAR/NIN is primarily designed to do, then the setup is very favourable for these sorts of conditions.

Then again, its been a long time since I played WAR at level 20-40, so maybe I'm just more out of touch with that level range and how those mobs respond to a WAR/NIN tank. However, as a note on my overall experience in that level range I've taken WAR to 60, THF to 61, RNG to 55, SAM to 41 and most of my subjobs to 37... I've never really found WAR/NIN tanks to be all that great at any level range, unless they're duo tanking.

[Armando]

Re: opinions on how to tank

All very good advice ^^ I'd just like to point out a few things:

1) Shielding kicks in far more often than Counter would even if you were using a two-handed weapon (Counter can only go off on full hits, so technically shielding cuts down on Counter activation rate) and neglects more damage overall. Sometimes it's better DoT-wise to go one-handed axe + shield and strike a balance between your Attack and Defense than to go OMGDEF with Defense Food + Defender and completely castrate all your Attack even with a two-handed axe (one-handed weapons do good damage anyways, just because Great Axe has more potential with the break moves or Sturmwind doesn't mean Axe doesn't do good melee damage too.) Of course this depends on the situation, sometimes you need all the damage mitigation you can get, sometimes you can afford to be more lax in that department and do more damage instead, but it's something to keep in mind. In Counter's defense though it IS more effective with a two-handed axe since you'll do more Counter damage and get more TP from it too. And in Great Axe's defense the Break debuffs are incredibly powerful and bring up every DD's damage. Both have very good pros, it's up to you to figure out which is most suited for your party. Personally I'd use a shield for mobs that hit very hard, and I'd use a Great Axe for Break debuffs in mobs that aren't extremely hard-hitting and for parties with many melees.

2) Defense's effect on damage mitigation doesn't increase exponentially, it decreases exponentially. I'm not sure how you got the idea that it was backwards but I'm pretty sure Defense gives diminishing returns. However, also bear in mind that this curve is pretty light, and these diminishing returns only show when tacking on large ammounts of defense, like getting 30-50 Defense at a time with Defense food or Defender. Keeping that in mind I would advise against using both at the same time unless you're fighting something extremely fierce. Extremes are never good. Plus, keeping your Attack at a more neutral level lets you do more damage on WS, skillchains, Counters, double attacks, and overall raises your damage over time and hate.

3) Speaking of which, defense food isn't the only way to go. Defender provides the same bonus as defense food minus some VIT (which is only 3 VIT in the case of Boiled Crabs.) Attack Food + Permanent Defender is also an option. In effect you still get a 25% Defense Bonus, but you can cancel Defender and put on Berserk to still put your Attack at 150% and do high-damage WS. You also get the benefit of added STR from the attack food. Also, as you go higher up foods give lower bonuses than 25% so the Defender gives you more defense anyways.

4) If you're fighting without keeping Defender up, you can use Defender to do two Berserked WS instead of just one. Example: 100 TP > Berserk (Atk: 125% | Def: 75%) > WS > Defender (Atk: 100%, Def: 100%) > 100 TP again > cancel Defender (Atk:125% | Def: 75%), cancel Berserk (Atk: 100% | Def: 100%). Basically you make Defender's property of cancelling itself out with Berserk to work in your favor.

My advise is to always remain flexible. Some situations call for more defense, others call from more offense (wether from your part, or from the other melee DDs that you could buff through Break WS). Try to strike a balance. Forsaking all your attack for a 50% Defense bonus isn't always the best option. Remember, before 50 PLD tanks without Defender and the only difference between WAR defense and PLD defense is only 12 Defense from PLD's second Defense Up Bonus, yet they supposedly take damage a lot better than WARs. Yes, they heal, and yes, they hold hate, but WAR/MNK can hold hate too, and can use shields too. WAR can easily out-do a PLD's defense pre-50 just by popping Defender, so we can definetely take the hits. Like I said though, just remember to try to reach a balance. If you have a lot of healers, if you're not getting hit hard, if the other melee's damage is suffering, if the healer is finishing fights with a lot of MP, it's often smart to gradually trade some VIT for STR and some defense for attack or to trade your shield for a Great Axe's Break WS. I once had a party where I was tanking as WAR/MNK and we had soooo much MP and healing power (WHM + SMN/WHM + BRD + RDM) and the only real DDs were me and my girlfriend, a THF/WAR. The beetles weren't checking high IT either, so I actually started tanking with Meat Mithkabobs and even Berserk. If things got iffy I'd put up Defender to counteract Berserk for a while. The mobs died faster, and I wasn't overburdening the healers. Of course, this is extremely situational but it's just an example of what I mean when I say stay flexible and cater to your party's needs.

[ClydeArrowny]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Id just like to add that the best thing a war tank can do for a pt imho is use the right breaks. An unresisted break lasts for a decent amount of time(more tp extends duration), which really can improve the PT overall. Shield break(ice) is like madrigal. Armor break(wind) like minuet. Weapon break(water) better than the extra def from a shield. Full break(earth) a bit of it all, though not as potent. Just keep in mind the element of your breaks and the elemental strengths and weaknesses of the mobs you fight. Also, just because you hit 100% TP doesnt mean you have to WS. If a mob is close to dying, its best to save TP for the start of the next mob so it'll be debuffed pretty much the whole fight.

[Lmnop]

Re: opinions on how to tank

few things

if you're completely ignoring attack and don't count it a source of hate, you're a paladin that can't cure himself. i.e. 2nd rate.

If I remember right, and if the theories are true, each point of defense IS more potent than the last, but only 'til it's enough above your opponent's attack to stabilize the hits in the low region. This may or may not be related >.>; In my attack set on warrior, i can fight a mob and get hit for 80-120 and then i can change to defense gear and get hit for 80-120... See much change? Well, in defense the chances of them hitting high aren't that great. it's more consistently in the 80s range. A Paladin in this situation has lots of defense (my defense set is gimp, btw... hey at least I use one!) and would get hit for 70s pretty much all the time. They can't really get too much from increasing their defense further so they toss in about 20-30 VIT in gear to reduce an equal amount of damage and you're looking at hits for 40-50. As you can imagine, a pld with fully skilled staff and earth staff really makes IT mobs look stupid. (tidbit: a friend of mine was able to get his Galka PLD 40's VIT above that of my Elvaan WAR 60.)

==== > this is the important part of my post:

We all agree that war/mnk is superior pre-50, right? We all have different opinions on how to do it best but we're all doing a better job than the armies of war/nins. We all say you should keep your mnk sub ready but you'll need ninja eventually so you might as well level it now and have it ready just in case you're in a party where /nin is better (though I might suggest not telling your party you have nin sub 'til you see party layout and judge accordingly). And so, we come full circle with the statement: level both subs.

Oh, and /nin tanking can be viable in a few situations as stated above. For more information, search ZQM's posts. he's got a pearl of wisdom in the department, actually a hord of pearls.

[Deviantkat]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Definately level both subs. I feel sorry for warriors who don't have at least 2 subs for it by the time they hit level 50. The primary idea of the warrior is that it can do many things well, but it is extremely subjob dependant to accomplish this.

I'll say that from the abilities available and my personal experience, a well-played WAR/MNK totally outclasses a PLD in all but VIT before level 50. A PLD may have sentinel, but that hardly holds up to the effects of defender in the long run. Both provide a large boost in defense and can decrease damage to you by a very significant margin. However, a PLD can't keep those defenses active at that level for long. Once they get defender, that's a whole other story, but until then a WAR/MNK can simply beat them at one of their finest points by outmatching their defensive stamina. Defender is essentially a permanent effect, sentinel wears off relatively quickly. That's why I revere WAR/MNK so much. With defense food and defender up, a WAR/MNK will take very little damage and even though they can't heal themselves, the healers will praise them for how slowly they'll be taking damage. As far as hate control in this situation... Damage is not a requirement. Few people understand just how powerful Boost is at managing hate. If you make use of Provoke and Boost as soon as they become available, you will not lose agro from the mob. In the mid 30s the only thing pulling off me as WAR/MNK was the THF SATAing onto a MNK... and I just pulled hate right back with Warcry if it did. Here, damage is not an issue, and healing does not matter.

A WAR/NIN certainly has its place solo tanking, particularly in parties before NIN main gets access to Utsusemi: Ni. A WAR/NIN tank can, easily, outmatch a NIN of equal level for damage and defense. Their shadows don't last as long, but they have the option of putting either berserk of defender to use depending on what works for the party, and that level of flexibility is a huge plus. Post 50, WAR/NIN doesnt seem like much of a viable option to me unless the monsters the party is fighting can die very quickly through sheer firepower. Hate control in this situation is more difficult than the former. Without boost, or the ability to cure yourself, Defender is not likely an option to reduce damage unless a THF is present to SATA onto you. Berserk may even be NECESSARY to manage hate, depending on how much the other party members are generating. If at all possible, make use of +enmity gear to manage hate more effectively, especially if you are stuck without a THF to assist your party's hate management.

Both clearly have their place, and each acts as, in my opinion, a superior replacement for either PLD or NIN up until level 50. Beyond that, it's less common to see WARs tanking solo, as WAR/NIN duos or WAR/NIN backup tanking/DDing begins to shine. But again, it can still be done if the party setup and the situation fits. I like to see WARs who have one of these two subs levelled, if not both. I also like seeing WAR/THF a whole lot since its a long dead DD combo that I've come to love.... but that's not the subject. Point is, level both subs if you want to really be an effective, flexible warrior who can make the best of any party he/she joins.

[Aeni]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Anyone who claims a WAR/MNK can't tank obviously has never seen a good one. Anyone who claims a WAR/NIN can tank better than a WAR/MNK obviously hasn't seen a good WAR/MNK either. Actually, anyone who claims a WAR/NIN can tank period needs their head checked (unless they have THF backup, but that's cheating =P).

A friend of mine was the only WAR/MNK you could find post 70 ... and you can imagine the horrible discrimination because of his choice of job combination. Nevermind the fact that he had both his Gaxe and 1hd Axe capped at all times (Even 1hd Sword for good measure) which isn't exactly what you find when talking with most WARs in the game or that he prides himself in carrying two sets of equipment (Tanking and DD) which rarely 1/10 WARs post 70 do.

Although you're limited to just low ITs and VT mobs (Only PLDs are really qualified to take on super horrendously difficult mobs as NINs get tossed like rag dolls against mobs with 100% accuracy to take down their blink shield in a hurry) it's been proven that chaining low ITs and VT mobs make more exp per hour than tackling 12+ level ITs anyway.

I got to party with him maybe once or twice before. He holds hate like an iron grip and with Dodge, he can evade more attacks than the standard run-of-the-mill WAR/NIN (Trust me, most WAR/NINs when they become my SATA partner can barely keep alive in the last 10% of the mob's HP and the MP waste is horrendous) His output of damage has at times exceeded mine by two-fold (comparing his damage versus DRK/THF) and this has allowed him to fill two vital positions in one sitting: Tank and SC opener. Allowing to do this allows for an extra slot to open to fill with additional support jobs to make things even easier or you can open up the cannons with 2x BLMs for quick destruction on double MBs.

I have to agree with Deviant, many players don't even know how to play this game anymore and instead rely on gil bought goods ._.

[Jei]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Does the dodge help enough to compensate the -20 evasion of haubergeon?

For 1 thing, every ability we use will generate hate. And war/nin just lack any ability to use. When trying to turn the mob to me for THF to SATA on main tank, I rely heavily on both provoke and warcry. Provoke reuse time is ok. But warcry isn't recharging fast enough for me -.- With MNK's couple extra ability to use im sure turning the mob would be a lot easier.

[Tomatoes]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Imo, no. Dodge can be okay for a quick hate spike, but it's the rough equivalent of a WAR wearing Emp. Pin. It's like the mob's trying to hit a car moving at 10mph, but instead it's now trying to hit a car moving at 11mph. Sure, that's a 10% improvement, but it's still freaking 11mph. Also, after the jungles, no amount of /MNK abilities will compensate for PLD self-curing. And, WAR/anything will get tossed just as easily as a NIN vs. the so-called 100% accuracy mobs. I think you guys are hyping up /MNK to be a lot more than it really is, which is dangerous for the OP who is basically just starting out on his first job and open to a lot of misconceptions. At the same time though, I'm intrigued enough to go seek as WAR/MNK when I pick it up again.

[Deviantkat]

Re: opinions on how to tank

I think you're downplaying WAR/MNK to be a lot less than it actually is. Most people have the same misconceptions of the job, and thus it gets hugely underestimated. Until flash I didn't see any PLD that could beat me out for damage taken or hate control. Sure, I had my share of PLDs that could hold hate rock solid, but if I can do that too through SATA Viper Bite, I'd say WAR/MNKs can do pretty well (and yet again in the 50s for AM bursts and before WAR AF body)... You'd be surprised what WAR/MNK abilities can do.

I have to agree with you though on Dodge... In my time playing WAR/MNK I've never found Dodge to be a significant improvement to my evasion. I simply use it to counter the evasion down applied by Aggressor. Otherwise I see it as a plain old hate boost.

As for the op starting out... I started out on WAR/MNK back at PC release when that's all you ever saw. That's how I learned WAR in the first place. IMO trying to start out as WAR/NIN is more dangerous. Getting sucked into the hype doesn't help, but getting the living crap kicked out of you every time your shadows drop doesn't seem very safe to me.

[Tomatoes]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Nny put it very well. I'm not sure the exact terms he used, but it was basically the following. The ability of your party to rake in XP is based on two things, and two things only: Damage output and damage mitigation (actually i think he said, migration, but that was mostly talking about damage cancelling abilities, not damage reducing).

All of the tank combinations focus on at least one of these two factors, but NIN/xxx or /NIN is the one that most often allows you to make a great attempt at both in a single slot. Not so coincidently, /NIN/ is also the one with the greatest potential for disaster, death, and wider fluctuation in hate control, which results in horror stories of WAR/NIN like the one Aeni posted. And no, I don't believe Counter procs enough and I don't believe Dodge has a great enough effect, to outweigh a well managed and supported Utsusemi (w/ Slow, Blind, Para, and other spells, which a good PT should be casting anyhow.).

Asmall, but great example of output vs. mitigation comes straight from this thread:

At 21 your main hate keeping tools are provoke, boost and your weapon. A cycle you should be getting yourself into is: Provoke, wait 15, Boost, wait 15 and Provoke. This, and your weapon swings, does wonders for keeping hate. As Driven said, picking up a GA wouldn't hurt either, but that trades extra defense + shield blocks for damage. Your choice. Definately get the spike necklace though.

Another thing I like about this quote is that it addressed the OP's concerns directly, w/o getting sidetracked into a /SAPO debate, something I'm especially guilty of. So I guess I'll stop here and hope I have the willpower to stop posting rambling replies to this thread.

Double Post Edited:

I think you're downplaying WAR/MNK to be a lot less than it actually is. Most people have the same misconceptions of the job, and thus it gets hugely underestimated. Until flash I didn't see any PLD that could beat me out for damage taken or hate control. Sure, I had my share of PLDs that could hold hate rock solid, but if I can do that too through SATA Viper Bite, I'd say WAR/MNKs can do pretty well (and yet again in the 50s for AM bursts and before WAR AF body)... You'd be surprised what WAR/MNK abilities can do.

Okay, maybe one more quick OT reply.

As far as PLD vs MNK /ja's are concerned, I think:

Cure >>>> Flash, Sentinel, Defender, Dodge, Boost, etc

Especially with some form of MP refresh for the PLD.

[Deviantkat]

Re: opinions on how to tank

Actually Tomatoes, I'd have to agree with you completely in that I'm very impressed with these forums for both keeping this thread on track and not flaming it to the ground like I'm so accustomed to on Alla. I moved from their forums because I was sick of getting my karma shot to hell by people simply waiting to stomp on any idea that isn't "WAR/NIN HOLY CRAP WAR/NIN OWNZ AND CAN DO ANYTHING BEST!!!1". I'm extremely impressed with the quality of discussion and such here. Thanks guys.

And yeah, you have a point. Cure is a very powerful thing, not only as a hate tool but also for its capacity to keep the tank going under pressure. Yes, WAR/MNKs definately need more support. I still hold true that before 50 their capacity for output and mitigation both exceed a PLD's and even though a PLD can cure himself/herself, its no more efficient than letting the healer do it. If hate stays in the same place in both cases, its a moot point about WHO does the curing.

[Lmnop]

Re: opinions on how to tank

I'm not a big fan of comparing tanks to each other, per se. But I do feel that a war/mnk is an extremely viable tank (read: first class. Neither better or worse than pld or nin) up until level 50ish. I believe the last time i took war/mnk to exp got me to level 52. I tanked the way I described tanking before. And we got exp just fine. However, i've found that after 50, parties want to kill too quickly for a war/mnk to thrive. This is the point where changing over to war/nin becomes viable because you might as well be competing for highest DMG just like the other DDs. Parties that can pull this off always do extremely well and always make comments about how it's the best party they've had in months.

And there you have it, I just 'hyped up' /mnk pre 50 and tried as best I could to show how it's logically not a terrific option post 50. I hope to break out my mnk sub again end game when I get there... seems like /nin would be a waste in a bone party for instance, but I'll have to wait and see. In the meantime, I build my own parties and only exp like once a month, so I plan on exping with bards any time I have to tank as Elegy tanking is quite a rush.