SATA Dummy? Yay or Nay?

[Erethion]

I've recently entered Crawler's Nest at lv35, I'm now level 37, though. I've noticed every thief we get keeps trying to SATA off me. I ask them politely to stop, due to it messes me up when tanking. ( believe it or not.) and I've grown to loathe the SATA combo.

This last party I just exited, we had a thief that insisted to SATA even after I adressed this fact, so, I decided to play a very mean trick. Every time he went to SATA off of the monk, I'd jerk the monster real quick to the side and break off the SA. ( Needless to say, this was very amusing.) Every now and then I'd run in a complete circle to even bust the trick attack by moving between the Monk and monster.

I'm just wondering, are there any other warriors that absolutely despise SATA? And if so, are you ever able to get your teammates to stop? Or do they? Do you just deal with it, or do you love SATA?

Thanks a Bunch,
Fairy's Local SATA-hating Warrior,
Erethion

[LadyPeorth]

I have nothing against SATA, but I believe that THF complicates a party to no end.

The point of the matter is, if you are tanking, an SATA at battle start is helpful. The only times an SATA are bad are:
1) When positions aren't correct
2) THF is slow with SATA

[Erethion]

See, my problem is with it starting-- If I'm tanking and cannot get the first provoke in right as the monster is coming in ( Heck, sometimes I even volunteer to pull just to get an extra provoke in), I have trouble getting my provoking back on track. My wife even tried to help me time it with Sata, and even then I couldn't get it right. I'm slowly starting to wonder if I'm just one of those people that will never get the hang of SATA heheh.

[Tomatoes]

Well...

Why didn't you just ask the THF to SATA onto you instead of intentionally sabotaging your own PT? O.o

[Sheng]

You should learn how to use it, you'll love it.

Of course the THF wants to use it, it's the only reason to invite a THF anyway, especially at those levels when XX > SATA Viper bite >> Distorsion are the king of damage.

Passing on the SATA is just plain dumb in this case.

When you're tanking, have the THF SATA onto YOU at the beginning of the fight and you'll be fine.

[ZQM]

I've only PTed with one good THF in my whole career. He actually helped me hold hate instead of making it more difficult and did just as much damage as the stupid THFs SATAing onto DDs instead of learning they're job abilities or holding up the skillchain because they're timers are down after they SATAd onto the DD and so on and so forth. And this is in PTs with RNGs, so no second provoke (And before Assasin came out).

Bad THFs really bring a PT down, but a good THF brings a lot more to the table then your normal knock-them-up DD.

Haven't seen him online in awhile though.

[Erethion]

Originally posted by Tomatoes
Well...

Why didn't you just ask the THF to SATA onto you instead of intentionally sabotaging your own PT? O.o

I've only had one thief yet that agreed to not use SATA, and in that party it was insanely easy to tank. Mind you, -none- of my parties in Crawlers Nest, have had a second provoke. There may be my problem, I'm not sure. The few times we've used a paladin as a tank and not me, we didn't even have a thief and I and the Dark Knight were acting as the main damage dealers.

Honestly, I don't see it as sabotaging when I'm trying to follow my mages' orders and keep the mobs away from facing them when the thief keeps pulling it facing them by SATAing on the monk. ( And oddly, the monk was ending up taking a huge beating, getting down to 300 or so out of 800+ before I could even get hate back, which was about 1-2 Provokes.) That, and it seemed even harder to keep everyone alive when he was pulling off SATA.

As far as thieves being only useful because of SATA... I don't think that's true. The one that ditched the TAing off of me still did nice damage, and he was a great puller/Ranged attacker.

So far as bad thieves.. that makes me think of one thief SATAing off of me after I logged onto my wife's RDM and she took my character. This was humerous that he SATAd off of the Red Mage.. but it was very frightening ^-^; Two hits of over 120 left the character in the yellow. Then again, this was when we tried Beetles...

Anywho, I guess if we get a thief tonight I'll try to learn to appreciate SATA, and maybe if we achieve a second 'voker it might be easier to deal with.

Erethion, out.

[Rilu]

SATA is the only reason to have a thf in your party, and if you are intentionally moving the mob so SATA won't go off, you're hurting yourself (exp/hour) as well as your whole party. A warrior/ninja (with a fully leveled subjob.. caugh caugh) can easily tank beetles, they attack very slow, and if a bard hits them with elegy its not even a question. Your Thf will make the mob actually die faster and keep exp chains going, thats why they are there. Learn how to use SATA because it becomes more and more necessary as you progress through the 40's.

[Erethion]

Originally posted by Rilu
and if a bard hits them with elegy its not even a question.

Permitting there /are/ bards. Fairy, as I've seen.. does not have many bards. Every time I search for members to join, there are never, ever any. Heck, I've seen maybe one or two in parties the whole time while on Fairy.

Originally posted by Rilu
(with a fully leveled subjob.. caugh caugh)

As for my Subjob, Shihei is 15k on my server. And right now I do not have the patience, nor the funds, to buy shihei, which is why once I hit 40 I'm switching to /monk after leveling it to roughly 25-30, and skill up GA. SATA may do alot of damage, but to me it's not worth the damage dealers almost dying, then the white mage almost doing so curing them because I can't get hate off of them :D

[neighbortaru]

let me get this straight,

mob comes in... you provoke... melees engage... thf SATA on monk? wth?

why doesn't the monk provoke... you/melees engage... thf SATA onto you? when the SATA timer is ready again, announce, have the monk provoke again and the thf SATA back onto you?

a lazy thf is only part of the problem, the other part is the rest of the party not knowing how to work with a THF.

edit: ok just read your other posts. 1) wtf was the mnk subbing that caused you not to have a second voke? 2) you really should learn how to use a THF if you invite a THF. Part of the problem is the party you put together doesn't really work with a THF (see 1).

[fuz]

My problem with thief is that SA+TA without a WS at the begining of the fight makes things much more difficult at mid/high levels. They can place maybe 300-400 tricked damage, but it's just barely enough to negate the hate from the backup tank's provoke along with the damage he's doing. Not to mention it is often a waste of healer MP. It really doens't seem to make it any easier for tanks by lvl 50 to hold hate, especially if they pull themselves (in the case of ninjas).

In earlier levels where SA+TA = teh pwn, sure I'll put up with it. But the damage becomes less and less significant as levels go up, and I hate dealing with all the complications and delays (can't start fighting until the initial SA/TA goes off). I'm sure Sandria remebers Skylancer. :p That thief would pull when his SA/TA timers weren't ready--quite a disaster.

I haven't played with a thief since the assasin trait was added, but I'm guessing it makes the whole specific fuidama setup is now unecessary which is good.

[DelennFFXI]

Originally posted by fuz
They can place... tricked damage, but it's just barely enough to negate the hate from the backup tank's provoke along with the damage he's doing... often a waste of healer MP... doens't seem to make it any easier for tanks by lvl 50 to hold hate

General Setup (easily adaptable):

Prov1 and Tank are lined up before the pull
Puller (usually the thf) annouces pull
Thf primes SATA
Prov1 provokes
Thf SATAs Tank
Tank provokes
Everyone lets loose with little fear of hate

As long as the initial SATA does more damage than the hate the tank could've gotten with melee attacks in the same amount of time (very likely), it's a benefit. Also, don't forget Prov1's provoke is negated by the Tank's provoke after SATA lands.

Regarding healing MP, if someone can, they should just throw a cheap mp efficient Regen, since hate is secured on the tank. Furthermore, a good party should be able to land SATA before Prov1 takes 2 hits (3 at most) due to pre-positioning and the thf drawing weapons before the mob is in position (/unlock is your friend).

Fyi though, a good thf's SATA should be more than enough to pull hate by itself. I've had no troubles up to 70 and I don't foresee problems in the future.

Originally posted by fuz
hate dealing with all the complications and delays

Most of the complexity is resolved by pre-positioning and teamwork. The ability to raise the hate threshold for everyone in the party is more than worth it imho, but if it's too difficult for people... /sigh.

Originally posted by fuz
assasin trait... guessing it makes the... fuidama setup... unecessary

For efficiency, it's still in the party's best interest to stack SATA for the first hit to burn both cooldown timers. Not stacking them essentially wastes a SA.



Bottom line, SATA hate management is not complex, but requires teamwork. With competent players, it allows everyone to "act" more while remaining "safe". This allows a combination of DDs nuking more freely, tanks rationing hate tools to keep chains alive, etc. ultimately resulting in more xp/hr and fun

Hope that helps,

[Erethion]

Nifty, Thief input! For News: Didn't get to try SATA tonight, no thieves were seeking. That little thing does help a bit though, might try it if I can find a thief tomorrow night, and a back up voker. It's not in my luck, though.

When no back up vokers are around, there's always a thief.

When back up vokers are around, there's no thieves anywhere.

[fuz]

The problem I have with pre-positioning is that the mob never really goes to a designated spot, so some adjument is always necessary. Things like varied terrain, a tight tunnel, or a wyvern in the way complicate things, and every delay means the backup tank eats that much more damage. Should the backup tank lose hate to the healer before the thf can get SA+TA off, everything goes to hell. Much worse if the mob runs off just before the SA+TA hit (nin sub has a longer delay than war)...

I have noticed that provoke is aproxametly the equivalent hate of a 200dmg hit. Now the two tanks may cancel each other out, so that leaves only the thf's SA/TA damage, which is just about worth... 1 provoke (SATA damage {350} - backup tank damage {100}). So it seems like there is no benefit for the initial SA+TA when considering the extra healing needed--which is of course moot of you have a war/nin as backup tank.

And all this while the hate is shaky and no one wants to upset the SA+TA attack, so the blm can't really nuke, debuffs can't be chain-cast, and healing has to be just enough not to turn the mob. Any DDs have to be cautious about hate as well, which means holding back. With everyone holding back, it takes longer to kill--longer to kill, harder to chain. You can argue that after the SA+TA hate is more secure, but I have rarely found that the case, explained in my theory from the last paragraph.

In my short lived static from 61-66, we had a thf, nin, drk, mnk, rdm, smn, and an open spot, usually reserved for blm. Me being the drk, Lady Peorth above as the monk. Our party shows considerable skill, so I consider it quite an insult to hear that I'm lazy. For 3 or so levels, we performed the intial SA+TA manuver, but after the thf left the static, we all thought, "no way a nin tank can hold hate without an initial SA+TA." However, we couldn't find a thf to PT with so we decided to continue anyhow, and rely on me--a drk/thf for hate control.

*side note* Even with a thf in the PT, my drk was never able to sub war since I would pull hate far too quickly. Heck, even when using a pld tank, my drk/war pulled hate too easily. As a result, I was downgraded to drk/thf for hitting too well... *sigh*

So, I went to pull, the nin provoked, and we all opened up on the mob. Being unable to trick any significant damage as a drk/thf without a WS (about 200) we decided that it was useless and discarded the idea. At first, we were cautious about hate, but it was soon apparent that not only was hate being held much more securely, but fights were also much easier to start. The nin eventually went out to pull to get an extra provoke in and to be honest, it was much easier and faster to fight without the thf.

Granted with the new changes perhaps all this would be moot, but I haven't PT-ed with a thf post 60 yet. Also I'm sad to say that the majority of thf's that I've PTed with always seem to make exping much harder than easier.

[Elsurion]

If a well equiped dark can steal hate from a pld, then pld needs to upgrade his macros and stuff....

I know i can easyly steal hate of a pld if i'm going nuts with spaming my arrows, but that's pre 60, and even then a {Cover} works just fine. Same goes with the overnuking BLM, but i never had as THF any Job stealing hate of the tank, unless MNK used {Hunderd Fists}

Also a NIN and WAR aren't well suited for Tanking with RNG and/or BLM, i've met only one NIN Tank who was capable keeping hate, without forcing me slowing down. But we had a THF in the party.