WAR/THF tank?

[Russta]

Originally posted by Voila!
What average player actually gets past 70?

Come over to Ragnarok and see.

[Kibagami]

A lot....just go PLD/WAR and you'll see how fast you can get to 70 as long as you got the founds for avagare gear. Lvl 60+ is getting cramed with dumbasses that rush to that lvl...dumasses gather around and xp and get to 70 with some of the crapiest gear ever. Then go and claim they rock

[totti591]

BRD /Sea all : 39 Bards found in the entire world.
Server: Remora

just because of that PLD > WAR atleast in this server lol









PLD 42 War 50 Drg58 Whm40 Mnk50
Everything else lv1
Remora
Looking for an LS!

[LordBiGGs]

well, i dont know how accurate i'm going to be since i'm speaking from a low lvl war and high lvl pld perspective, but if wars cant tank after the jungle, then how the hell did all of the /wars get to 37? i know i sure as hell tanked in garliage. did it earlier tonight as a matter of fact. had a party where i was war/nin and we had another war/nin. we both did good damage while the whm twiddled his thumbs wondering what he was doing there. i understand at later lvl's its probably not possible to find 2 war/nin's in the same lvl range, but how sweet would that be.

anyway, i'm sure war's can hold hate fairly easily with +emnity gear. sure they can't sure or flash like pld's but then again they don't swing like old women. war AF also gives a good amount of emnity+.

about the damage taken, war/nin has utsusemi which definitely helps. absorbing 3 hits every 30 seconds helps loads. granted its pretty hard to recast, since you will probably need the enemy to miss. but its possible to recast even without the enemy missing, just incredibly difficult. you need to start casting shortly before an enemy hits you, get hit at 20%, get hit again right at 80% and utsusemi will cast. also the mob should be debuffed. blind and paralyze makes utsusemi go much farther and makes it easier to recast. if you have someone who can take hate off you for a sec thats the perfect opportunity to cast. so even if they do take extra damage they block some extra do and fights will be shorter since the tank does damage unlike a pld.

regardless to what anyone is saying war's do not have paper armor unless they're all berserked out wearing pure damage dealing gear. even drk's have ok defense, not good, but not horrible, better than a mage or rng. sure you should wear some dd gear, just like a nin, to keep agro, but you have to know what armor you can afford to give up for extra damage.

to sum it up, i think war/nin's can definitely tank whenever they feel like it, you just have to do it right and be ready to tank. make sure the mob is debuffed, use utsusemi as much as possible.

[Ayia]

Re: WAR/THF tank?

Originally posted by Ashtyr
In my offtime from my SAM, I like to play as a WAR/THF. CUrrently I'm at level 44, and I've found one thing: I am not a tank. I even put it in my search message: "I'm NOT A GODDAMN TANK." Whenever I tank, I die. Yet parties still expect me to tank since I am a WAR. So, should I be tanking? Or should I run for the hills?

lol after lvl 60 if you cant tank no one will want you in there exp PT for DDing since a drk and other DD jobs will do more ><, but if you have /NIN they could use you for blink tankage, everyone luves a tank that does'nt take dmg ^^

But yeah war/thf cant really hold hate that well, all you get useful at that lvl is Sneak attack which you have to be behind the mob to do ; ;

[ZQM]

Re: Re: WAR/THF tank?

Originally posted by Ayia
[B]since a drk and other DD jobs will do more ></B]

DRK? WS are same damage, but Berserk and Aggressor puts WAR ahead on DoT.

MNK and RNG yeah, but DRK? o_O

[Ayia]

Re: Re: Re: WAR/THF tank?

Originally posted by ZQM
DRK? WS are same damage, but Berserk and Aggressor puts WAR ahead on DoT.

MNK and RNG yeah, but DRK? o_O

Well maybe were not all as experianced as you mister 75!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *puts hand on stove*

lol jk ^^

aww..... and this whole time I thought drk could outdamage a rng, maybe around lower lvl 30s but must get worse after lvl 50s+ when they get Sidewinder or SlugShot. ><

"Ayia is intimidated by Nny's presence." lol

[Karinya]

WAR/THF isn't a good tank, that's true. However, if most parties need you to tank, you really should get the sub(s) and gear to tank, otherwise you're not contributing as effectively as possible to your party. At levels 5-58, I think WAR/MNK tanks better than WAR/NIN. Carnage elegy might change that, I haven't seen a party with WAR/NIN tank and BRD after 59 - but bards are rare, so you won't see many either unless you static with a bard.

Partly this is because of the stupid WAR/NIN tanks who think they're NIN/WARs and won't get hit, so they neglect their defense and vit to wear stuff like emperor hairpin and leaping boots. Then they run out of shadows anyway, get hit for 150, the WHM starts dumping cures while they try to recast... it can get very bad very quickly from there. Utsusemi *supports* your tanking, but your main defense is still your defense and vit. WAR just doesn't have the evasion, parry and agility of NIN - to say nothing of the ninjutsu skill, NIN/WAR can often complete an utsu recast after getting hit, WAR/NIN rarely.

On the other hand, WAR can have 95% the defense and vit of a paladin if they put some effort into it - and still deal more damage. From 25-49 they may have *more* defense with Defender on - and they *still* deal more damage, partly because 1h swords and their ws just suck that bad.

A stupid whm is the bane of war tanks, though. If they're just dumping cures and making no effort to avoid hate with regen, preventing damage with bar spells, etc., they WILL rip hate off you (if they're not smart enough to use regens and watch their hate, they're probably not smart enough to wear -enmity gear, either). Of course, they'll blame the WAR for this, and a lot of people will either believe them, or pretend to believe them because they don't want to lose the WHM in their party, but the truth is that an overhealing WHM is just as much at fault for pulling hate as an overnuking BLM or a RNG who barrages at the start of the fight.

It also really, really helps to have a good rdm - not only do they keep enfeebles on and cut way down on the monster's damage, but they can also throw a few heals and lower the amount the whm has to get hate for. RDM hardly ever has to worry about their hate. (This is true for any tank, but especially WAR.)

NIN tank getting more hate than WAR, what a laugh. Not if the WAR is actually trying. They have both more steady hate (higher damage, boost if war/mnk, enmity from AF) and more burst hate (berserk and cancel, warcry, aggressor). The *WHM* is less likely to take hate off the NIN because he's falling asleep from boredom, but the BLM or RNG or MNK or DRK is significantly more likely to take hate off a NIN than off a WAR, assuming equal skill and quality of gear.

Either a NIN or WAR tank benefits a lot from a good THF (or /THF, post-60, but a THF post-60 is even better now) and the party tactics that allow you to use them effectively. A PLD doesn't really need a THF and that is a significant advantage of PLD tanks. But NIN and WAR can both still tank without THF support, if they have the proper tactics and gear.

Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is that a PLD tank is better at compensating for other people's screwups, and WAR or NIN tanks demand a higher level of skill from the whole party; but on the other hand, PLD tanks not only have crap damage, but are limited by their mp (and the more they have to compensate for stupidity, the more mp they spend doing it) and thus can slow down your kill rate significantly. And good parties know that killing fast is the key to great exp.

[LadyPeorth]

A WAR/THF tanking requires alot more skill than most people give credit for. First of all, explain to them that if you are tanking, EXP will be lower than a true tank, and it will require some setup. If they still insist on you tanking in the PT, you move into one of 2 scenarios:

1) Thief-less PT
2) Thief PT

In the case of 1, have your puller be someone else. I don't care if the MNK has to run out and pull with Provoke (as a level 65 MNK, believe me...I've had to do that often in the past), the point is...you need to setup a Sneak Attack to add some additional hate. Activate sneak attack after the pull and draw your weapon as the mob passes by you, Sneak Attack and Provoke directly after it. Use Steal afterwards if available. Warcry is your panic button in case the monster starts to lose interest in you and Provoke isn't ready.

In a thief PT, you have to get off your SA before the Thief does, otherwise it pretty much goes the same way. When thief SATAs on their trick partner, counter with an SA of your own and a Provoke.

Above all else, REGARDLESS of what others tell you...use Berserk and Agressor. I did a general "how much damage do I take" test with normal, defender, and berserk and at my current level (52) the damage taken is not noticeable enough to warrant the loss of extra damage. Remember...as a WAR/THF, you don't have Ninjitsu, you don't have Boost, all you have is Sneak Attack and Steal.

[fuz]

It might take more skill to tank with thf sub, however trying both war/thf and war/mnk, I find that war/mnk wins out in just about any imaginable way. It's simply much easier to pick up hate and steadily increase it throughout a fight. None of that iffy aggro bouncing that mages/rng hate. If you want to debate damage, I'm sure counter will add plenty, and negates damage at the same time.

[CarbonFibre]

On not tanking:
Besides mentioning it in your search messages, make sure it's completely clear in /tell before you join the party. Either the leader will agree or they won't. If they let you come all the way out to the camp and then ask you to tank after you've made it completely clear you will not, they're idiots.

[LordBiGGs]

Originally posted by Karinya

Partly this is because of the stupid WAR/NIN tanks who think they're NIN/WARs and won't get hit, so they neglect their defense and vit to wear stuff like emperor hairpin and leaping boots. Then they run out of shadows anyway, get hit for 150, the WHM starts dumping cures while they try to recast... it can get very bad very quickly from there. Utsusemi *supports* your tanking, but your main defense is still your defense and vit. WAR just doesn't have the evasion, parry and agility of NIN - to say nothing of the ninjutsu skill, NIN/WAR can often complete an utsu recast after getting hit, WAR/NIN rarely.

one reason the war's wear things like that is so they do more damage and keep hate. its possible to never lose hate and still recast utsusemi. just debuff the mod. paralyze inparticular, is a life saver. just keep trying to cast utsusemi til 1. the mob's paralyze kicks in. 2. it misses or 3. you get the rare ocassion that you manage to get hit at 20% casting then again at 80% when you cant be interupted (it is possible i've done it many times with my war/nin and my thf/nin).

Originally posted by Karinya

NIN tank getting more hate than WAR, what a laugh. Not if the WAR is actually trying. They have both more steady hate (higher damage, boost if war/mnk, enmity from AF) and more burst hate (berserk and cancel, warcry, aggressor). The *WHM* is less likely to take hate off the NIN because he's falling asleep from boredom, but the BLM or RNG or MNK or DRK is significantly more likely to take hate off a NIN than off a WAR, assuming equal skill and quality of gear.

i guess equal gear yes...but a nin who uses lots of shurikens can hold hate as good as a pld. its just the odds of finding a nin who dumps gil like that is pretty low.