WAR/THF tank?

[ZQM]

Originally posted by LadyPeorth
As for the WAR can tank argument, post 37, PLDs and NIN hold hate better and take less damage...even considering a WAR/NIN with top of the line gear. Utsusemi: Ichi is only so good compared to both Ichi and NI, and Flash for PLDs is a great hate generator, and gives them 3 free misses to cure themselves and add even more hate.

37-59, I agree. 59+, then you just never experienced it.

I could blink tank nearly a full fight. Hell, on Manticores, I would hardly get hit the whole EXP session that consisted of several hours. You don't need both Utsusemi's to tank, having two is extremly overrated. I tank just as efficently at 74 then I did pre-74, Utsusemi:Ni hardly makes a difference.

And about holding hate...dealing amongst the top if not the top damage in your PT won't hold the hate when you add in Provoke? When you DD as a tank, there is no hate problem. Throw in a Rampage at the start of the fight, and the mob never looks in anybody elses direction.

[Kibagami]

NIN doesn't really hold hate better...if anything NIN is the job that has the hardest time getting hate back if your dumbass RNG decides to do something really stupid like WS>barrage>WS in the first few sec of the fight. PLD is good with hate tools but what makes a WAR keep hate is it's DMG.

I wouldn't really recomend the SATA formation with a WAR/THF unless you got 100% to do SAWS. Otherwise just having a crit+voke isnt much against the intial voker. I would suggest you buy a pair of VIT rings and bring fish kabobs all the time. First fight start the fight with voke>steal>voke, second fight hopefully you'll have enought TP to start off with a SASturmwind to secure hate. Third fight you got Warcry if things get rough. Fourht fight do the SAthing again. If you manage to get the 5th you'll have steal back. If you don't want to bring fish kabobs then bring meat kabobs and turn on defender at all times. You'll neither have a DEF or ATT bonus but you will keep your +5STR to boost up WS. WAR/THF tank is similar to NIN in the fact that you have to time your JA in other to gain hate step by step unlike, WAR/MNk which only has to mash the Voke and Boost macroe to build hate.

I will not discus WAR/NIN since I hate it (Even do i did that from 20-40 ). Though anyone else can probably explain that

[kuu]

I could blink tank nearly a full fight. Hell, on Manticores, I would hardly get hit the whole EXP session that consisted of several hours. You don't need both Utsusemi's to tank, having two is extremly overrated. I tank just as efficently at 74 then I did pre-74, Utsusemi:Ni hardly makes a difference.

Umm how are you blink-tanking manticores pre 74? And post 74, why are you still there?
Heck at lvl 72 greater manticores were bad xp.

Wars can tank
and
Wars CAN'T tank

It's how you equip yourself and your skill set.

My War/nin is DD, and gets hit almost as hard as your adverage paper Darknight. Defense can drop to 200s after berserk. That's ranger defense there if it weren't for vit bonuses.

What does make a difference is that working with say a pal, you rival him for intermit tank, to shave the seconds off utsusemi till your tank picks it again.

When a ranger decides to be stupid and WS in the 1st 3 seconds of battle, well only thing you can do is side-> berserk+ warcry + rampage + provoke.
and save his little ranger rear.

War/thf pffff yea pretty much never trust people saying that past lvl 30. Unless you got a dual personality in your inv, tanking is as bad as a ranger doing it.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by kuu
Umm how are you blink-tanking manticores pre 74? And post 74, why are you still there?
Heck at lvl 72 greater manticores were bad xp.

Manticores were just an example for how little I get hit. By pre and post 74, I meant tanking overall.

As for how, I cast Utsusemi:Ichi....?

Or perhaps you mean how do I not get hit, in which case it's the bard song "Carnage Elegy." It's the best song in the game, hands down, but goes overlooked much like most debuffs. Thanks to it, I was able to tank my way from mid-60's to 75. Deal the same damage as I would in a DD spot (same gear, using berserk and aggressor the same, ect.) but only take up one PT spot, allowing for two other damage dealers to join.

[Sheng]

Umm how are you blink-tanking manticores pre 74?

Carnage Elegy. Haste. Timing.

It's getting old Nny, I'm bored explaining n00bs ten times the same thing: a skilled warrior will be the best tank post-59 if you have a bard in your PT.

Importantly, Berserk, Defender, and Aggressor should be considered as useless while tanking.

Agressor is highly important while tanking or damage dealing, the evasion down isn't a problem as a warrior never evades XP mobs anyway.

My War/nin is DD, and gets hit almost as hard as your adverage paper Darknight.

Then tell him to buy a couple stacks of Shihei and to cast Utsusemi LOL. When he gets hate, use a macro to equip 2 phalanx rings and his body AF (he's not the kind of DD war using his AF body instead of the Haubergeon right ?), ask your BLM or DRK to cast Stun to help him recast Utsusemi. If he's still getting hit, kick him and grab a skilled warrior.

[mrrhypon]

lol I just tanked 30 minutes darksteel golems in ro'maeve with only utsusemi ichi..( our pld dc'ed ) Weapons suck because of their aoe which keep removing my blink but golems went really good.whm had no problems with the mp. Had a brd casting elegy and haste so maybe that's why..

And like Sheng allrdy mentioned, the most important thing is :

Timing

When the 2nd shadow of ichi is gone start recasting ichi.
It gets more diffcult after the 2nd ichi recast since timer is not ready yet. Start casting ichi right before the enemy is going to attack you ( got to know when enemy will attack ) utsusemi won't be interupted that way..

WAR/NIN is pretty good at pre 74 withhout Ni.
I can't wait to lvl my sub ( yes gimp lol ) nin to 37 and get Ni.

[kuu]

NO dice, you can boast all you want, but you're getting hit for 170+ no matter what you try to squeeze in with eq change.

EQ change is only 2 or 3 slots at most, changing ring doesn't help much and only make you miss more. Switching in a huerk/heub, for AF? hate carries across all actions, not just JA. If you're doing that pt is keeping back major hate.

I didn't talk about timing ichi to not get interrupted, I'm talking about your timer.

Once it's gone it's gone. No way but a ninja on those levels can live through the timer without major drain.

And before those tanking wars puff up their chests, I know what's skill possible and what's not, my defensive skills are up there i know how much elegy can shave off, I also know it sucks.

Well it's harsh to say it sucks, but it sucks because other classes can do it better, with more hate.

Until Ni If you're tanking main, you're draining xp which can be better allocated.

After 70, almost all hate gear are gone from a DD war. Keeping hate is not an option.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by kuu
NO dice, you can boast all you want, but you're getting hit for 170+ no matter what you try to squeeze in with eq change.

EQ change is only 2 or 3 slots at most, changing ring doesn't help much and only make you miss more. Switching in a huerk/heub, for AF? hate carries across all actions, not just JA. If you're doing that pt is keeping back major hate.

I didn't talk about timing ichi to not get interrupted, I'm talking about your timer.

Once it's gone it's gone. No way but a ninja on those levels can live through the timer without major drain.

And before those tanking wars puff up their chests, I know what's skill possible and what's not, my defensive skills are up there i know how much elegy can shave off, I also know it sucks.

Well it's harsh to say it sucks, but it sucks because other classes can do it better, with more hate.

Until Ni If you're tanking main, you're draining xp which can be better allocated.

After 70, almost all hate gear are gone from a DD war. Keeping hate is not an option.

I'd continue arugeing, but it seems you do not listen.

You obviously haven't experienced, you obviously don't know how it works. Until you are a 60+ WAR who has tanked, you have no room to say that we can't tank. I have months of experience backing up my claims. You have....what? Misconecptions and myths and nothing to prove them.

I tried being nice in my first post, because most people just don't know about it. However, you fail to actually learn. All of your points, I have already rebuttled, and instead of either learning from them or rebuttling back, you just repeat the same thing. I'm not going to run laps around somebody with a learning disfunction while trying to cram some information down your misconcepted throat. I'm not just going to repeat the same thing over and over again, trying to get you to learn just how it works, but instead your either too dumb or too close-minded to actually learn.

Whoever said ignorance is bliss was wrong. Oh well, it's your loss. I'll go back to my 7k+ parties with chains into the teens, I hope you have fun being elsewhere.

[mrrhypon]

I agree with ZQM on this...

After 70, almost all hate gear are gone from a DD war. Keeping hate is not an option.

WTH ? AF2 gives ALOT of enmity..
Then there are also new items thanks to the patch :

Warwolf belt +3 Enmity, new earrings / rings ( hercules ring ) that gives + Enmity + War's lvl 70 + can dual weild some nice axes or maybe even a ridill in dual weild..

Now that will keep hate for sure !

[LadyPeorth]

Originally posted by ZQM
37-59, I agree. 59+, then you just never experienced it.

Please also recall, I'm speaking as a WAR/THF. I've seen good WAR/NIN tanks after my level (my MNK just hit 65 again thanks to one), but as a WAR/THF...I find it harder to tank than most other tanks at my level. Yet still people ask me to...I'm starting to wonder if they even look at my subjob sometimes -.-;

[Voila!]

Don't blame Kuu, he plays on Seraph. The excellent warriors are few and far on Seraph. Seraph also proves that people can be noobs 60+.

I don't understand why you hate warriors so much, they can do so much better then ninjas and paladins, but require a bit more effort. Spamming flash and cure to keep hate is hardly worth recognizing.

[Russta]

Originally posted by mrrhypon
WTH ? AF2 gives ALOT of enmity..
Then there are also new items thanks to the patch :

Warwolf belt +3 Enmity, new earrings / rings ( hercules ring ) that gives + Enmity + War's lvl 70 + can dual weild some nice axes or maybe even a ridill in dual weild..

Now that will keep hate for sure !

And just how easy is AF2 to get for your average player? i'm far from your average player and I only have two pieces of it.

Then you say to fill accuracy slots with enmity+ items which will probably give you less hate overall. If you really understood Warrior you would've known exactly the point Nny was trying to make with that comment.

[mrrhypon]

Russta, I think you better first read again what he said..

After 70, almost all hate gear are gone from a DD war. Keeping hate is not an option.

He says that it isn't possible to keep hate lvl 70+ war.
this isn't true at all and you should know that.. i'm 74 right now and even without provoke I sometimes still get hate with the hits on the enemy. And I only have dual weilded 2 100k~ axes.Wearing hands AF2 piece. Now for example the warwolf belt which has good stats + Enmity + war's AB's war's will keep their hate. I know it because I did it yesterday in exp pt.

But yeah, I was wrong with the enmity rings because acc / str rings are better here. But don't say to me I don't understand war
:mad:

(Ps. srry for my poor english.. i'm from the netherlands)

[Uroboros]

On exp/non-HNM mobs with a BRD I hit over 700 attack with double Minuet, I don't need +enmity to hold hate on non-HNMs, i.e. when exping. I still have it though (enmity merits, Fighter's Mufflers for enmity and STR, Fighter's Calligae, Warwolf Belt, +9 enmity without even trying hard). On HNMs when tanking I'm not going to do worthwhile damage anyways due to not subbing THF so I go all-out -dmg and +enmity and it works, I can get as high as +24 enmity with current gear and it does help when I'm not dealing enough damage to generate hate that way. So you can go either way and hold hate, but half measures don't work. You need either all damage or all enmity, and all enmity is pointless unless on something you can't damage.

As for can a WAR tank pre Utsu-Ni blah blah blah Nny has been telling you contrary people how it works, and works well, for too long. Just because you haven't seen something done doesn't mean it can't be done. This game is less rigid than you think it is. I've heard of a set party where a ranger tanked with an Earth Staff post-60, I've known several all-mage set parties that got unreal exp, I've exped myself in a group where the only healer was a hume RDM/BLM in Ro'maeve, lots of fun with AOEs and no Curaga. I'm not illustrating anything in particular other than that the tanking answer to everything is not just to throw PLDs and NINs at stuff and be done with it. WAR/NIN is an amazing tank even pre-Ni with a BRD, WAR/MNK is a great tank at any point in the game, if you can't see how doing 5x PLD damage and 2x NIN damage as the tank is useful, and how it leads to by proxy tanking sometimes even without provoke, then I don't know what to say to you.

[Voila!]

Originally posted by Russta
And just how easy is AF2 to get for your average player? i'm far from your average player and I only have two pieces of it.

What average player actually gets past 70?