Sarashi...

[imac2much]

Wow... someone graciously admitting fault in forums. I rarely see this in forums.. some people could really learn from you. Best of luck in EQ2.

[Apple Pie]

Well, I've already read most of Bigokk's posts before I started to argue with him about this topic. He's done a lot of research by himself and he even proved our accuracy formula was correct.

We have a lot of testers who are willing to contribute and we have specific forums and threads for this kind of issues. However, he's done that all by himself. That's amazing, isn't it?

The reason I like this FFXIOnline board and I decided to post here is because there are a lot of people who present evidence and proofs through their experiments to support their claim. It's worth reading and sometimes worth arguing.

Look at some of other FFXI forums. Some claim, for example, "RDM can effectively melee in XP PT." OK, then where's the proof? No, I can't see any. There are only wordy threads there and no in-game experiment can be found. There are always a lot of "---'s 101" and "---'s --- Guide" but I'm sick of them since they are just copied from some websites. How can LV30 RDMs write something like "Enhancing Sword is better than Joyeuse." although they've never had access to them.

Anyway, although it was proved by mathematical method, doing another research is always fun. Sure, if Sarashi really has a nice effect, I'm also pleased to know that because RDM/NIN, which is an ultimate combo for soloing for us, can make good use of it.

However, as the average battle time per fights shows, it didn't help me to kill them faster. If it gives me a few more chances to attack Hell Hounds in a certain period of time, it definitely makes the difference because more attacks -> more damage -> less avg. battle time.

Finally, there's no need for refund, Bigokk. You've never forced them to purchase it. We decide if it's worth to buy or not whatever your and my test results are. I spend 330K but I can anytime send it back to AH in Jeuno. I'm not sure if I can get full refund but if it is condidered to be a school tuition for studying and testing, I don't think it's waste of my money.

Good Luck on your EQ2 life.

[Techboy]

I wish we have more testers like Apply Pie taking the time to investigate these "super-duper-godly-gears".

Aple pie, how about testing the effectiveness of having a pair of sniper rings vs dex rings vs str rings?

[Lmnop]

As I said before, the damage increase was neither 1% or 5%, it was higher. The only reason I can think of for this Double Attack. So regardless of it's 'haste,' it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness. This means nothing for a rdm/nin, however (unless he has a joyeuse). Apple Pie, thank you for your numbers and you courtesy. Bigokk, thank you for the testing and all your time spent. Best of luck to you both.

And again, thanks to both of you for keeping this civilized as I expected from these most 'highly thought of' individuals.

[Justarius]

Originally posted by Lmnop
As I said before, the damage increase was neither 1% or 5%, it was higher. The only reason I can think of for this Double Attack. So regardless of it's 'haste,' it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness.

I claim that eating Sweet Rice Cakes increases the amount of criticals by an number higher than 1%. The only reason I can think of for this is the Maple Sugar. So regardless it DOES increase a warrior's effectiveness.

[Macht]

The mathmatics seem a bit odd on that initial one you displayed. I was trying to figure out what the 3,600 was suppose to be. Also though the mathmatics numbers seem pretty close if that 3,600 is suppose to be some factoring number for the delay in a minute then the data is even more to close of numbers.

That initial one would of worked better if you were capable of doing that for 2 min. instead in accordance to the math you provided 2 min. would of factored out a possible delay error in your test. Otherwise with a number like 3,600 = 60 seconds that would mean the test for the item adding haste would have no apparant difference if the timing between the two tests was even half a second off.

At least with 2 min. if the item did give 5% haste there should be at least 1 extra set of hits over the other.

EDIT: Reviewing 3,600 as being an equivalent of 60 seconds I noticed that both 1% and 5% would be capable of getting 1 extra hit over the use of no sarashi. The 1% would be extreemly close though so it wouldn't help to prove much, testing the numbers again 3 min. showed to seperate the difference more clearly. In with no sarashi and 1% haste would get 37 (1% coming very close to 38 so it possibly executing close to exactly when the 3rd min. ends) hits and 5% haste would get 39 (40 coming very close to when the 3rd min. hits)

[Apple Pie]

Because all motions are calculated on a 60fps basis (FFXI was originally designed for PS2 and this is what most JPN PS2 games follow) internally whatever fps we get in game, there are 3,600 (60 x 60 secs) frames in one minute.

Weapons all have delays like 224 as we know and they indicate required frames between swings. This doesn't seem to apply to ranged attack by the way.

When you take a look at the result taken by FFrep, you notice the average battle time is more than 120 seconds for both cases (w/ Sarashi and w/o Sarashi). If, let'say, it had +5% haste effect, there had been a clear difference in the average battle time because

1) Average damage was the same
2) Accuracy was almost the same

However, it wasn't able to show us any advantage. I don't have Suppanomimi yet but I'm going to do the same test with it.

EDIT:
3,600 (60 x 60 secs) fps -> 3,600 (60 x 60 secs) frames
per swing -> between swings
ranged weapon -> ranged attack

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
Weapons all have delays like 224 as we know and they indicate required frames between swings. This doesn't seem to apply to ranged attack by the way.

Could you explain this please, Apple Pie? Ranged delays are calculated differently?

[Apple Pie]

For example, the weapon that has 224 delay has the wait, 224 / 60 = 3.733... seconds, between swings and I'm confident of this. Therefore, 1 Delay is equivalant to 1/60 second. There is a guy here verifying this through video capturing.

However for ranged weapons, we haven't been able to verify 1 delay = 1/60 second. It's more like 1 delay = 1/70 - 1/80 second. Our conclusion so far is there must be some unknown modifier for ranged weapons.

[Russta]

Originally posted by Apple Pie
However for ranged weapons, we haven't been able to verify 1 delay = 1/60 second. It's more like 1 delay = 1/70 - 1/80 second. Our conclusion so far is there must be some unknown modifier for ranged weapons.

Uhhh, the arrows?

[Apple Pie]

Uhhh, the arrows?

They're also included T_T

What's tricky is this unknown modifier seems to vary depending on the type of ranged weapons.

The delay that determines TP we get from each attack is actually [Bow Delay] + [Arrow Delay] but the actual delay between ranged attacks isn't...

[Arctyc]

Given how much actual animation has had a hand in influencing various abilities in the game already, I would not be surprised if the mystery delay for Ranged Weapons relates to the draw/fire animation in relation to the timer activation.

For a good analogy, consider the Sneak spell. I don't know if it has happened to you, but it's happened to me: you cast the spell, complete the spell and run into a monster, only to have it agro. Why? Because the Sneak Animation had not finished yet, and the text log message "Soandso casts Sneak. Soandso gains the effect of Sneak" had not appeared yet.

Or when you land the killing blow on a monster with a spell; they stop attacking immediately upon the completion of the spell, but do not fall over until the animation on them finishes.

[Macht]

The thing with Ranged weapons vs other weapons is I do notice that ranged weapons have two triggers were other weapons only have one trigger.

So when you do an attack the server sends a trigger command and the animation starts and finishes. Ranged Weapons however is different, when you hit for the Range Attack it gets a trigger that causes you to draw the bow and a second trigger for the fire animation when you fire it.

I know that for a fact because I've had many lag/server related incidents cause my range attacks to do many strange things. And the two triggers is the only thing that explains them.

I've had cases were I hit the fire command and nothing seemed to of happen and some time much latter when I'm not even hitting the fire command the fire animation begins, I'll be standing there with my bow drawn. I had a case were that happened and sometime latter my bow gets drawn, I sat there for a good 20 seconds before I moved character wondering what was going on. It was then I noticed that none of the monsters were moving or other characters (Server had lagged severely).

About 5 min. later I suddenly finish my animation actually firing and a monster way back were I was before I moved during the server lag comes running for me. The same monster I tried to shoot just before the server lag.

So ofcourse if you measure from animation to animation I'm convinced you'll get a number, I am not convinced that it is accurate to weapons actual delay in accordance to what the server is doing.

[Hetaira]

TP from each hit
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5)
Delay 480 - 900: ((Delay + 480) / 80

Apple Pie, you posted this formula for TP return calculations. However, on the TP calculation site you linked, they seem to have different sets of TP return formula:

間隔�らTP計算(少数第2�以下�切り��)
〜180 5.0
180〜480 ((間隔-180)/256) * 6 + 5
480〜960 ((間隔-475)/1024) * 13 + 12
960〜 18.0

So which one is correct? Or is it not supposed to matter since according to the directions you round down under the 2nd decimal?

[Apple Pie]

Or is it not supposed to matter since according to the directions you round down under the 2nd decimal?

Yes, you got it Both formulas should give you the same answer.