Sarashi...

[Patchinko]

Bigokk, I respect that you did the tests with the intent of avoiding bias, but unfortunately you did not control well enough in what you did to really make the determination that Sarashi is having any effect. Please try not to take offense to scrutiny, as my interest is finding out if this item is worth using, not proving one or another person wrong.

Since you did your experiments in a PT setting and based your determination on damage in a PT setting, it is very difficult to tell whether the Sarashi was the only factor, or even a determining factor, effecting the difference in your damage output. You say you fought raptors and peryton in Valley of Sorrows, but neglect to consider that these are of different levels, and that they have different buff and debuff moves effecting you. If you fought more raptors while wearing the Sarashi and more peryton while wearing the other gear, of course you got these results. I would be more convinced if you had done the test on 30 of the same mob type, as opposed to 30 mobs of various types, because then chances are that the random use of mob abilities would have been offset by the large number of tests.

The only test that I think would be able to convince me of its usefulness in the face of Grendal's test of TP in short fights would be a longer test, as Bigokk suggested. However, it would have to do quite a bit of improving over the 1 minute tests result to warrent the high pricetag or replacement over another belt.

[Apple Pie]

Is it possible that since it's a latent effect, it does not check the the same way the permanant DW effect does? Or, is it possible that the item does not effect TP?

It does affect TP.

We looked for the border of delay between the one giving us 5.0% (10.0%) TP and the other giving us 5.1% (10.2%) TP.

Case 1: DW2 (x0.85) without Sarashi

- Total Delay of 435 (217.5) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 436 (218.0) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

Case 2: DW2 (x0.85) with Sarashi

- Total Delay of 440 (220.0) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 441 (220.5) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

Case 3: DW2 (x0.85) with Suppanomimi

- Total Delay of 462 (231.0) gives us 5.0% TP for each attack (10.0% when both attacks land)
- Total Delay of 463 (231.5) gives us 5.1% TP for each attack (10.2% when both attacks land)

So, how much do both Sarashi and Suppanomimi enhance DW?

Assuming Sarashi does by 1% and Suppanomimi does by 5%,

Case 1: DW2 (x0.85) without Sarashi
435 x 0.85 = 369.75
436 x 0.85 = 370.6

Case 2: DW2 (x0.85) with Sarashi (x0.01)
440 x 0.84 = 369.6
441 x 0.84 = 370.44

Case 3: DW2 (x0.85) with Suppanomimi (x0.05)
462 x 0.80 = 369.6
463 x 0.80 = 370.4

To get 5.1% TP from single weapon, the delay has to be 185 or greater since only up tp two places of decimals are counted although 184 delay is supposed to give us 5.09375% (Attack them 20 times with weapons that have 184 or less delay and you'll only get 100% TP after all)

TP5.0%: 184 x 2 = 368
TP5.1%: 185 x 2 = 370

Therefore, these coefficients are fairly accurate. Our work can be found here (in Japanese) and we have nice TP calculator like this based on these mathematical methods. It includes everything such as MA, Store TP and Subtle Blow.

I know when I turn attack on, the delay is more than the normal delay between swings.

Did you see when I pressed [Time] macro? It was in fact after I attacked Lost Soul a few times. You should have seen "/p Start counting 60 seconds!" but did I do immediately after I turned attack on? I'm afraid not.

Approximately one minute (give or take a few seconds) of testing can not positively conclude anything, in my opinion.

I did that test more than 20 times in The Eldieme Necropolis alone although many people looking at me seemed to wonder what kind of idiots I was but I had no chance to attack it 13 times with Sarashi as expected. I will have no chance even though I kept testing 100 times or 1,000 times.

Well, shall I do the same test once I have access to Suppanomimi that is said to enhance DW by 5%? I can also shout in Jeuno and ask some RDM/NINs to help me.

Comments like those are not appreciated. Thank you.

Finally, this is just my irony against what you said, "I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision." If it offended you so much, I'm sorry but I've been using FFrep before NA release of FFXI and posted a lot of stats here. I don't intend to be pride myself but when I see the comment like that, I cannot help laughing.

Anyway, these tools only take the statistcs. Although I fight with exactly the same mob like Guardian Crawlers (NM, all LV45), it doesn't mean my performance is always the same against them. There are a lot of random numbers lying.

You said, every mob was in the same level range, in the same zone, in the same area, same group members, same spells, and same skillchain for every mob. but did every mob was killed exactly in 60 seconds for instance? Did mages always finish casting debuffs in 10 seconds in every battle? Did the skillchain take place in 30 seconds in every battle? No way to confirm and it is almost impossible to reproduce exactly same steps in every battle.

[Bigokk McGock]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain the relationship of TP and weapon delay.

Finally, this is just my irony against what you said, "I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision." If it offended you so much, I'm sorry but I've been using FFrep before NA release of FFXI and posted a lot of stats here. I don't intend to be pride myself but when I see the comment like that, I cannot help laughing.

What was your outcome in damage increase/decrease per mob with and without Sarashi? To me it seems like you are avoiding that question and blame the results on "random numbers".

Anyway, these tools only take the statistcs. Although I fight with exactly the same mob like Guardian Crawlers (NM, all LV45), it doesn't mean my performance is always the same against them. There are a lot of random numbers lying.

My test results were anything but random, they were consistant for 60 mobs (30 each), regardless if the mob is the exact same level or not. We were still getting chain 5, so you cannot assume that others were not keeping their damage up.

I did that test more than 20 times in The Eldieme Necropolis alone although many people looking at me seemed to wonder what kind of idiots I was but I had no chance to attack it 13 times with Sarashi as expected. I will have no chance even though I kept testing 100 times or 1,000 times.

My point is that your tests were only 60 seconds and therefore are inconclusive since you did not show a difference in the number of attacks. Your test needs to be set at an extended period of time to show the exact number of attack rounds 1. with and 2. without Sarashi, say 5 minutes each?

I appreciate your results and teh testing you have done and am not saying you are incorrect, I am just saying to me, your results are inconclusive (other than your TP results, which could be misleading if you assume too much).

[Apple Pie]

What was your outcome in damage increase/decrease per mob with and without Sarashi? To me it seems like you are avoiding that question and blame the results on "random numbers".

OK, here's comparison.

Test Setup 1
- RDM74/NIN37
- Attack 390
- STR 57 + 18
- DEX 64 + 4
- Weapon: Mythril Baselard (D13, Delay 186) x 2
- Waist: Life Belt

Test Setup 2
- RDM74/NIN37
- Attack 390
- STR 57 + 18
- DEX 64 + 4
- Weapon: Mythril Baselard (D13, Delay 186) x 2
- Waist: Sarashi

The method of testing
1) Make sure both Protect IV and Shell IV are up.
2) Buff myself with Phalanx and Stoneskin before engaging.
3) Engage with one of Hell Hounds (LV46 - LV49) at The Eldieme Necropolis.
4) Take it down only with regular attacks - Neither debuff nor WS can be used.
5) Repeat (1) - (4) until I take 15 of them down.

Test Result

Setup 1

1) Overall
- Total Damage: 33,863
- Average Damage: 42.9
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 96.3% (790 / 820)

2) Without Criticals
- Total Damage: 30,344
- Average Damage: 41.4
- The Highest Damage: 52
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 96.1% (733 / 763)

3) Critical Hits
- Total Damage: 3,519
- Average Damage: 61.7
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 55
- Chance to be Criticals: 7.0% (57 / 820)

4) Average Battle Time = 157.9 seconds
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/.../average01.gif

Setup 2

1) Overall
- Total Damage: 33,319
- Average Damage: 42.9
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 95.7% (776 / 811)

2) Without Criticals
- Total Damage: 30,531
- Average Damage: 41.8
- The Highest Damage: 52
- The Lowest Damage: 32
- Accuracy: 95.4% (731 / 766)

3) Critical Hits
- Total Damage: 2,788
- Average Damage: 62.0
- The Highest Damage: 66
- The Lowest Damage: 55
- Chance to be Criticals: 5.5% (45 / 811)

4) Average Battle Time = 162.1 seconds
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/.../average02.gif

Conclusion

1) Sarashi neither increase nor decrease the damage

2a) fSTR (My STR - Hell Hound's VIT) was capped.

2b) ATK/DEF multiplier was capped (x2.4).
------------------------------------------------------------------
The highest possible damage of Mythril Baselard is:
(13 + int (13 / 9) + 8) * 2.4 = 52.8 = 52

The highest possible damage at Critical is
(13 + int (13 / 9) + 8) * 2.4 * 1.25 = 66
------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Accuracy was seemed to be capped because it reached 95% - 96%. Just a few difference (96.3 - 95.7 = 0.6%) is considered to be an error.

4) Because of (1) to (3), testing environment was fair enoufh for both setups.

5) As a result, Sarashi didn't seem to enhance DW by 5% according to the test because average battle time was actually worse with it. If it really did:

Setup 1
Expected Delay: (186 + 186) x 0.85 = 316.2 (108.1)
Chance to Attack in two minutes: 7,200 / 316.2 = 22 (x2)

Setup 2 --- Assuming Sarashi improves DW by 5%
Expected Delay: (186 + 186) x 0.80 = 297.6 (148.8)
Chance to Attack in two minutes: 7,200 / 297.6 = 24 (x2)

48 (24 x 2) / 44 (22 x 2) = 1.09...

Therefore, when accuracy was 100%, Setup 2 had to do 1.09 times higher damage than Setup 1 did in two minutes. It is apparent that it didn't.

[Apple Pie]

My point is that your tests were only 60 seconds and therefore are inconclusive since you did not show a difference in the number of attacks.

Read my testing method again and see when I pressed the macro that started counting 60 seconds on those movies.

There were 12 (x2) attacks excluding the one occurred at the same time I pressed it if you already manually counted them. The reason you didn't see any difference is because Sarashi didn't enhance DW by 5%. That's it.

Quoting from my previous posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without Sarashi
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.85 (DW2) = 289.85
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 12.42... = 12

If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5% or something as some of sarashi lovers stated,
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.80 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 272.8
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 13.19... = 13

Well, I didn't seem to be able to attack it 13 times at all.

If it only improves 1% as I stated, then:
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.84 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 286.44
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 286.44 = 12.56... = 12

This matches the number - "12" - seen on both movies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I had Suppanomimi instead of Sarashi, you saw me attack Lost Soul 13 (x2) times instead.

[Bigokk McGock]

Your tests results are very strange, to say the least.

The only explanation I could come to about the difference between our results is that I was using IT mobs while you were using TW-EP mobs.

The last thing to convince me would be to record the time it takes to reach 100 attack rounds without Sarashi and then count the number of attack rounds you make with Sarashi in that same time period.

If you are correct, "with Sarashi", you will have 101 attack rounds in the exact time it takes you, with "no Sarashi", to reach 100.

That is the only true way to determine the exact % of "haste" without assuming anything.

[Apple Pie]

Finally, here're logs taken by FFreplo. Since I am using JPN client (because I am Japanese), it's in Japanese.

http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup1.htm
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/kenshou/setup2.htm

If you're able to read them, you'll find setup1 had some bad luck because I failed to see Meat Chiefkabobs gone for some seconds. However, setup2 was still unable to outperform it. I don't know why because only 1% enhancement to DW allowed Setup2 to attack 23 (x2) times in two minutes when we get 100% accuracy.

Anyway, it seemed to work for Bigokk and I don't let him stop using it. I don't use it. It's your choice.

[neighbortaru]

err, what can you swing at for 100 rounds that 1) you won't kill and 2) won't kill you?

again, I think the fact that you have DA and WS, (criticals too) that are variable, excludes you from using damage as an indication of Sarashi performance.

[Apple Pie]

Your tests results are very strange, to say the least.

No way. Fighting against IT mobs won't offer you equal environment for both setups since there are more undecided factors. Do you always get nearly 100% accuracy against them? Does your damage always stable against them? No.

At one of fights, you may get 60% accuracy and at another fight, you may get 70% accuracy whereas they are always stable when we fight with TW mobs. Are you saying your test environment is better than mine?

Although you said it was strange, it was what I got from FFrep and I don't think I'm foolish enough to manipulate the numbers.

[Apple Pie]

I think the fact that you have DA and WS, (criticals too) that are variable, excludes you from using damage as an indication of Sarashi performance

Thank you, neighbortaru. That's what I wanted to say. I attack them only with regular attacks. No DA. No WS. I only get raw performance of Sarashi.

[Justarius]

Arrogant FFXI quitter vs Intelligent FFXI guru.

hmmmm... I guess the WAR sterotypes are partially derived from hours sitting in jeuno LFG.

[neighbortaru]

come now, what that really necessary? :dead:

[Justarius]

probably not, but refuting pages of hard numbers, averages, and video with anecdotes is fun to point out.

[Ashn]

At least Bigokk has been nice about everything. It's been a refreshing argument to read, having just come from the allakhazam board. Most folks there are just like "my way is right no matter what hard facts you throw down to refute it."

So props to you Bigokk for not letting it devolve into a flame war ^^ I've found the thread informative.

(Apple Pie you're my hero!) ^_^

I saw someone on my server named Applepai today and got upset.

Edit: Er.. typo in there fixed.

[Bigokk McGock]

Arrogant FFXI quitter vs Intelligent FFXI guru.

hmmmm... I guess the WAR sterotypes are partially derived from hours sitting in jeuno LFG.

I hardly call personal attacks "anecdotes".

Frankly, I could care less what you think, especially since Warriors don't wait for groups. Once you level out of Valkrum, you'll learn more about the game.

At any rate, I'm done here, it appears my results were somehow flawed and I was incorrect.

I apoligize that I had previously misreported Sarashi as being 5% delay reduction and mislead some of you to purchase the item.

If any of you were influenced to buy Sarashi and are on Cerberus and cannot sell it, I will refund you for the item. (Although I do not play, my friend is still holding my money incase I come back someday).

Good luck everyone and I wish you all great happiness.