Sarashi...

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Voila!
I find your posts to me imflammable and lame. Continue talking out of your ass while blindly puting your trust into a thread with a flawed conclusion, it's entertaining to know you have no clue what you're talking about.

I posted my reasons for why I believed what I did. To me, they seemed logical. I'm not blindly putting my trust into anyone. I read what Apple posted, felt that it made sense, and decided to accept it. If I never did that, I would never be able to learn anything from anyone that I didn't already know. On the other hand:

Originally posted by Voila!
I'd go with Bigokk for obvious reasons. Would you believe a Warrior so completely crazy in love with his job as to learn everything he can about it, or some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say?

Hippocrasy is a whole lot funnier than stupidity. Combine the two, and you get something closer to Voila's posts.

Post something logical, and not knee-jerk reactionary, and maybe I'll consider you to have some form of intelligence. As for right now, you're just a hippocritical flamer. Keep posting though, it's amusing to see that the best you can come up with are personal insults that have nothing to do with addressing any of the points I made.


Lmnop, you make a good point. I wonder if that's why Biggock got the numbers he did, which would indeed make Sarashi's 1% haste valuable while farming on things that are lower than you. If it was simple, I'm sure we'd all know the answer by now, but SE doesn't look like it wants us to really know anything...; ;


EDIT- I don't usually correct people's grammar, but your mistake is too funny to let it slip. First of all, imflammable is wrong. Inflammable is probably the word you were looking for. However, Inflammable means "not flammable", or to define it without using itself, "not able to be set on fire". So, my posts are flame-retardent, huh? What I think you meant to say was that you found my posts to be -inflammatory- as in, tending to inflame - or in this case, flame. When I said it, I mistakenly made it enflammatory, but the point remains. Basically, you responded to my post (where I said I found your posts to be generally inflammatory) with "Yeah, well, I find YOUR posts to be inflammatory, j00 lamer!" Your response was even more awesome than I had originally thought.

[Apple Pie]

Those who don't like math stuffs may want to compare these two movies. How many times did I attack a Lost Soul after pressing the [Time] macro? It was 12 times in both movies (exluding the one occured at the same time I pressed it).

http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/no_sarashi.wmv [w/o Sarashi]
http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/sarashi.wmv [with Sarashi]

The [Time] macro consisted of 4 lines.

[Time]
/p Start counting 60 seconds
/wait 60
/attack off
/p Time!

I was RDM74/NIN37 and I had Tanathos Baselard (Delay 191) as my main weapon and Hornet Needle (Delay 150) as my sub weapon.

Without Sarashi
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.85 (DW2) = 289.85
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 12.42... = 12

If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5% or something as some of sarashi lovers stated,
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.80 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 272.8
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 289.85 = 13.19... = 13

Well, I didn't seem to be able to attack it 13 times at all.

If it only improves 1% as I stated, then:
Expected Delay: (191 + 150) x 0.84 (DW2 + Sarashi) = 286.44
Chance to attack for 1 minute: 3,600 / 286.44 = 12.56... = 12

This matches the number - "12" - seen on both movies.

In fast chaining XP PT at higher LV, average battle time is usually 1 minute or less. This is the reason some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say concluded Sarashi was useless. There are better gears we should look for such as Life Belt, Master belt and Sword Belt +1.

So yes, I'm going to get refund from Jeuno AH. I'm not sure if I can get my money back because when I saw the history, it was something like,

A >>>> B --- 350,000
B >>>> C --- 330,000
C >>>> D --- 340,000
D >>>> Grendal --- 330,000

They seemed to learn how useful it was. I don't care who equips what. If you think it works cool for you, why not?

[neighbortaru]

So Voila, any more stupid comments? Maybe your gut tells you the math is wrong...

[Ariagiovanni]

I had to refund mine, I saw little difference and Life Belt seems to help more.

[Voila!]

If I'm going down I'm taking somebody with me.

Originally posted by AtraposBLM

EDIT- I don't usually correct people's grammar, but your mistake is too funny to let it slip. First of all, imflammable is wrong. Inflammable is probably the word you were looking for. However, Inflammable means "not flammable", or to define it without using itself, "not able to be set on fire". So, my posts are flame-retardent, huh? What I think you meant to say was that you found my posts to be -inflammatory- as in, tending to inflame - or in this case, flame. When I said it, I mistakenly made it enflammatory, but the point remains. Basically, you responded to my post (where I said I found your posts to be generally inflammatory) with "Yeah, well, I find YOUR posts to be inflammatory, j00 lamer!" Your response was even more awesome than I had originally thought.

Main Entry: in·flam·ma·ble
Pronunciation: in-'fla-m&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Medieval Latin inflammabilis, from Latin inflammare
1 : FLAMMABLE
2 : easily inflamed , excited, or angered : IRASCIBLE
- in·flam·ma·bil·i·ty /-"fla-m&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun
- inflammable noun
- in·flam·ma·ble·ness /-'fla-m&-b&l-n&s/ noun
- in·flam·ma·bly /-blE/ adverb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-b...va=inflammable

'Inflammable means flammable!?' quote Dr. Nick from the Simpsons.

[Johnnybigone]

Dang im a rather stupid person and i knew imflammable meant highly flammable... aw well back to looking for people fighting for no reason

[Voila!]

I couldn't agree more!

[imac2much]

The immaturity of some posters on these forums continues to amaze me.

Thanks for the experimenting once again Apple Pie.

[Voila!]

How much did he pay you to say that? It's pathetic if you have to get your friends to flame for you.

[Bigokk McGock]

Ok, where to start? Before I get started, I have stopped playing FFXI and am back to EQ and realized just how much more options are available in EQ than FFXI.

FFXI is too limited and imagination/creativity is a non-factor when designing your character profile (equipment).

Every WAR, leveling up through the ranks, having the same weapons and armor (not counting the extra +1 armor for the extra 1 stat which is meaningless in the big picture) regardless of how much time they spent farming or how much research they've done and effort they've put into playing the most efficient way possible...is just rediculous. (/rant off)

I'm a firm believer that hard work and passion about something pays off in the end, but in FFXI, it's just not the case.

I would like to respond to a few comments, but I will do no more new testing. Instead I will use the data from my previous tests to respond.

Based on the fact that Grendal is probably the most highly thought of RDM on this forum, and moreover on the fact that he is known for his proving things via a stat parser, I would take his opinion of it very seriously.

Bigokk said he timed his hits using a stopwatch. If someone would be willing to redo the test using a parser, one could determine damage over time and that would give you a very solid result.

I hope it's not too bold of a statement to say that some here would have also considered me one of the "most highly thought of WAR on this forum" and that I also am known for providing things via stat parser.

I have parsed every PT since finding Spyle's parser, I think I was in my mid 40's at the time?

Bigokk said he timed his hits using a stopwatch. If someone would be willing to redo the test using a parser, one could determine damage over time and that would give you a very solid result.

You are semi-correct. I initially timed it with my stopwatch the day I bought it...but then for weeks after, I parsed it constantly.

Here I posted the results of my tests:
http://b.ffxionline.com/forums/showt...threadid=45389

Any way you look at it, you cannot deny the results.

151.17 damage per battle difference over Master Belt.

In fast chaining XP PT at higher LV, average battle time is usually 1 minute or less. This is the reason some cynical Red Mage with nothing positive to say concluded Sarashi was useless.

Darksteel Axe+1 and Viking Axe, with Sarashi (1%) -
Expected Delay: (276 + 281) x 0.84 (DW2, +1%) = 467.88
7.80 seconds between each swing.
7.69 swing rounds per minute.

Darksteel Axe+1 and Viking Axe, with Sarashi (5%) -
Expected Delay: (276 + 281) x 0.80 (DW2 + 5%) = 445.6
7.43 seconds between each swing.
8.07 swing rounds per minute.

Including TP attacks (Rampage), here are my results:
1102.67 Average damage per battle using Sarashi.
951.5 Average damage per battle using Master Belt.

Let's break down those numbers:

113.5* TP per minute with Sarashi (1%).
118.71* TP per minute with Sarashi (5%).
*(Includes TP gain for an approximate 30% chance to dual wield and 79.71% Accuracy. Also includes 10% TP return from Rampage).

1% Sarashi
If I were to achieve 1102.67 (702.67 with Rampage subtracted) damage per battle swinging 7.69 (7.96 with 30% double attack and 79.71% Accuracy) times per battle, I would do:

88.27 DMG per swing round, or 44.13 per hit.*

*(143.39 total damage per round, taking into account 100 TP every 1.04 battles, with 400 DMG average Rampage)

5% Sarashi
If I were to achieve 1102.67 (702.67 with Rampage subtracted) damage per battle swinging 8.07 (8.36 with 30% double attack rate and 79.71% Accuracy) times per battle, I would do:

84.05 DMG per swing round, or 42.02 per hit.*

*(140.14 total damage per round, taking into account 100 TP every .98 battles, with 400 DMG average Rampage.)

There's a 2.08 damage per hand swing difference. Too bad I didn't save the full logs to compaire it to, oh well...that was kind of pointless since I thought had the full logs so I could calculate the average hit.

There are better gears we should look for such as Life Belt, Master belt and Sword Belt +1.

I vehemently disagree with that statement. I already tested vs. the Master Belt, I really did not feel strong enough that another +7 ATK or +5 ACC would have covered the 151.17 damage per battle increase that I gained from using Sarashi.

If your data is correct, then the "Enhanced Dual Wield" effect (it's technically not "haste", but a reduction in delay) means a great deal more than anyone would have thought. With possibly another hidden bonus causing such a drastic increase in damage?

You're basically saying that Sarashi is equivalent to a Blitz Ring, which I find laughable, since I used one for a while and noticed no difference in damage output with or without it (so I ran no tests), unlike Sarashi. Sarashi is clearly a noticeable improvement.

So yes, I'm going to get refund from Jeuno AH. I'm not sure if I can get my money back because when I saw the history, it was something like,

A >>>> B --- 350,000
B >>>> C --- 330,000
C >>>> D --- 340,000
D >>>> Grendal --- 330,000

This has not occured on Cerberus, not even once while I played.

I feel sorry for those players who did not have a parser available to them to assist them in making an educated decision.

[Voila!]

I'm done being an ass, but I'd like to mention that Sarashi enhances dual wielding ability. This could cover the delay calculations AND damage calculations.

You can tell they are seperate calculations by equipping a dagger and axe, then switching them around. Having dagger in the first hand will have a faster delay, while having the axe in the first hand will result in more powerful hits.

[neighbortaru]

an interesting post Bigokk. However, I must point out that you are using a completely different bar in your comparison than Apple Pie.

Further, there are two variables in your parses that might screw things around. First, the damage from your TP attacks is not constant and second, the chance of your DA firing is also not constant. Are these enough to make a difference in the numbers you saw? Possibly.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Voila!
You can tell they are seperate calculations by equipping a dagger and axe, then switching them around. Having dagger in the first hand will have a faster delay, while having the axe in the first hand will result in more powerful hits.

You sure about this? I'm pretty sure it makes absolutely no difference.

Dual Wield gives a haste bonus depending on the level of your trait. There are 4 inherent job trait levels of Dual Wield for NIN, and there's other "enhancements" such as NIN AF, suppanomoni (sp?), sarashi, etc. All the other enhancements just increase the haste.

Your delay is calculated with (weapon 1 delay + weaopn 2 delay) * (1-DW haste)

So with Dual Wield 1, which is 10%, your delay is (w1delay + w2delay) * 0.9.

The slot you put your weapon in makes no difference except for weapon skill options. It also doesn't change your damage.

[Apple Pie]

Bigokk McGock,

Do you always fight with mobs that have same LV in XP PT? Mob's LV varies. Debuffs like Gravity and Dia II do change your accuracy and damage. I respect the result of your perser but unless you always fight with exactly the same mob and your PT does exactly the same thing against it, the result isn't always reliable.

OK, if Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, how do you explain I get 104% TP after my 10th attack lands when I DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226) and equip Sarashi?

Do you really know how 10% improvement of DW was found by the way?

We all know TP we get varies according to the delay of weapons.

TP from each hit
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: ((Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5)
Delay 480 - 900: ((Delay + 480) / 80

When you get 5% TP back from each hit, this means your weapon has 0 - 180 delay. Therefore, TP tells you how much your delay is. You should know what I mean if you learn equation in your school.

So, we dual wielded Wakizashi (227) and checked how much TP we got for instance.

If DW had no haste effect, we should have got "227 (6.1% TP) + 227 (6.1% TP) = 12.2% TP" from each attack and after 10th attack, we should have got 122% TP. However, we didn't get that number. After 10th attack, we only got 110%.

110 / 122 = ???

This is how we found DW1, DW2, DW3, DW4 and the effect of NIN AF. S-E never told us those. Again, TP tells you how fast they are because the delay determines TP. Do you understand the logic?

Back to DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226), I get 104% TP both without Sarashi and with Sarashi. If Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, I should get (224 + 226) x 0.8 = 360 Delay (180 for each weapon) resulting in the fact that I only get 100% TP after my 10th attack. I didn't unfortunately. I can anytime show you another movie if you want to argue more.

If you don't want to believe me, why don't you do the same thing? Also, any comment on two movie I recorded? Are you sure you conclude they are inaccurate and you have 13th attack in a minute with the same setup?

As for the perser, [No Thanks] because I have FFrep with me.

[EDIT]: Corrected some grammar.

[Bigokk McGock]

You should know what I mean if you learn equation in your school.

Do you understand the logic?

Before I respond to your post, I want to let you know that I do not appreciate being patronized and I will not continue to have a discussion with you unless you can hold a civilized conversation. Comments like those are not appreciated. Thank you.

Do you always fight with mobs that have same LV in XP PT? Mob's LV varies. Debuffs like Gravity and Dia II do change your accuracy and damage. I respect the result of your perser but unless you always fight with exactly the same mob and your PT does exactly the same thing against it, the result isn't always reliable.

Yes, every mob was in the same level range, in the same zone, in the same area, same group members, same spells, and same skillchain for every mob.

OK, if Sarashi really enhances DW by 5%, how do you explain I get 104% TP after my 10th attack lands when I DW Verdan (224) + W.W.A (226) and equip Sarashi?

I believe you meant 20th attack (unless you get 10.4 TP per hit?).

If DW had no haste effect, we should have got "227 (6.1% TP) + 227 (6.1% TP) = 12.2% TP" from each attack and after 10th attack, we should have got 122% TP. However, we didn't get that number. After 10th attack, we only got 110%.

Is it possible that since it's a latent effect, it does not check the the same way the permanant DW effect does? Or, is it possible that the item does not effect TP?

I played EQ for 4+ years, I know what things can go wrong with items and game code. Could it be a glitch that the item is not affecting TP as it should? That's not out of the question either.

Also, any comment on two movie I recorded? Are you sure you conclude they are inaccurate and you have 13th attack in a minute with the same setup?

I do have a few comments, I know when I turn attack on, the delay is more than the normal delay between swings. This could affect your results. Also, you should try doing /attack and then doing /echo and finish with /attack then /echo also.

I would like to see 2 videos showing more than one minute, maybe 5 minutes each, both the exact same length. Then we can count the number of attack rounds and determine the exact number of extra attack rounds and the haste % will be revealed.

Approximately one minute (give or take a few seconds) of testing can not positively conclude anything, in my opinion.

I do not play FFXI anymore, as I stated, and my account has been cancelled, so I cannot make any movies myself.

If you turn out to be correct with the amount of delay reduction, can you explain the huge damage loss in another way? I would be interrested in finding out.

One thing that I am 100% sure of, Sarashi is the best belt in the game for damage output (other than Speed/Sonic Belt).