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**retrosolid** · 09-15-2004, 04:05 AM

I suppose I should add that I'm talking about tanking not DD. As far as DD goes I think its more preferance... I prefer /THF but if there is already a THF in the PT and I need to be trick Partner then by all means I go /NIN. WAR is the job of versatility and all WARs should have multiple subs. BUT I have seen a ton of WARs that have /NIN and /THF and thats it (I was one of em). But in the tanking position (what I'm asked to do the most) I believe WAR/MNK is the way to go ^^

....ok...I'm done

**Ozymandis** · 09-15-2004, 04:17 AM

I never thought I'd be agreeing with this, but I do agree, now. After 50 or definitely 60, everything you're fighting has Double Attack. This screws up a WAR/NIN something awful. When you don't get your full six freebies, hate is often going to be an issue, NIN sub gives you less in the way of abilities.

I had the dubious pleasure of being invited to Davoi to tank last weekend. Everything had Double Attack, and there were MNK-types too. It was a nightmare. I did everything I could, and it still didn't matter. It was so bad that I decided to go back to levelling ninja for a while.

With full AF, /MNK all the way for tanking. Boost with all that plus enmity is going to be great. Counter, mmm, and Focus to help with the ACC that you lose when not using Snipers.

Before I go back to WAR, I'm going to level ninja to where I can raise my parry, and maybe even PLD to raise my shield skill. And I'm going to get MNK to 37.

You know what I'd really love to see? More +Counter equips. Maybe a high-level subjob dependent item with Counter +10. This would make WAR/MNK even more attractive.

**Denser** · 09-15-2004, 06:55 AM

Re: Why I quit using /NIN sub (kinda long)

Originally posted by retrosolid
I know there are a ton of "WAR/NIN is teh ShiZZ!! WAR/MNK iz teh N00B!!" people on this forum. But please keep flamming to a minimum and try to input something productive. In fact as a Disclaimer I will say this...

WAR/NIN CAN TANK WELL with enough skill and gil thrown at it (hell I did it for 18+ lvls) BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE WAR/MNK is better for the tanking job.

Actually most of the WAR's on this will say WAR/NIN is only really for tanking post 74. Although it's agreed that it's probably the most effective DD sub for Warrior after ~55.

**Techboy** · 09-16-2004, 04:52 PM

I still enjoy being a WAR/NIN tank. Meat shield/blinking method works for me just fine even on double attack mobs. As long as I'm not tanking mandies or raptors that hits so much faster than crabs and crawlers then I don't mind. Six utsesumi absorb still means less damages.

Sure, you are throwing your ninja tools away and making tanking expensive but IMO, it still beats taking 5 out of 6 attacks as a WAR/MNK. The chances for us to parry and block with shield is slim even with +AGI gears.

For a WAR/NIN to tank effective it is best to have a good provoke partner who knows how you play and knows when to voke the mob off you, so you can have a chance to recast utsesumi. When this is done correctly, PT should have no problem chaining to #4s and occasional 5s.

**retrosolid** · 09-16-2004, 09:36 PM

I found that the 6 missed hits were not very reliable, or even that worth it.
I have counter and shield block with /MNK, I usually avoid 2-3 ,and every once in a while, 4 hits with these alone, basically a full uts worth. I also seemed to take less dmg as a whole (I can actually use defender with MNK sub if I need to).

With /MNK I don't need a THF for hate or someone to voke it off me when I need to recast something. Cost is a null issue, uts is actually pretty cheap for WAR/NIN anyway. I switched to /MNK for tanking because it works much better on a much more consistint basis.

**Ozymandis** · 09-16-2004, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Techboy
Meat shield/blinking method works for me just fine even on double attack mobs.

There's no way to guarantee your six hits on mobs that double attack. It's not that bad but it is a problem.

Usually when my second Utsusemi cast is interrupted I'm having to ask for someone to Stun the mob because I found that not getting that full six can sometimes lead to problems holding hate as the fight goes on.

**Sheng** · 09-17-2004, 02:08 AM

Heh.

I'm war/nin, main tank of my static PT.

Everyone knows his job, and I have NO problem keeping aggro with a SAM/RNG, a DRG/WAR and a BLM/RDM.

We pull 2 skillchains per monster, both MBed, and even against double-hitting monsters I recast utsusemi.

When I have trouble timing my recast, my BLM helps casting Stun on the monster. If he's busy, my WHM/SMN will cast Aerial Armor midfight.

Since we have a BRD/WHM with Mage Ballad II, we have absolutly NO DOWNTIME and consistantly get EXP chain #5...

I won't give up /nin unless /mnk proves to be better for my PT. But actually, I can't see how it could be better. Less downtime ? We have none. More XP ? No, with /mnk we'll kill things slower.

Enjoy /mnk, I still think using Axe+Shield is a bad move, you might try Greataxe instead. Good luck.

**retrosolid** · 09-17-2004, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Sheng

Enjoy /mnk, I still think using Axe+Shield is a bad move, you might try Greataxe instead. Good luck.

I have both capped.

As WAR/NIN I could hold hate just fine on Crabs...arguably the easiest thing to tank in the game.. (and the main thing you fight up through 55)

However WAR/MNK is all around the best in almost any tanking situation. In my semi-static we lvl on coffer mobs/3rd teir beastmen quite often.
/NIN is much less reliable with MNK types, start of battle -Ga casters, and double hitting monsters.

As to you keeping great hate in your PT...SAM doesn't do that much dmg compared to most DRKs,RNGs,MNKs, and even other WARs... they are for skillchains.
And when have DRG ever taken hate...from anyone :spin:
Not to mention BLMs don'e even have Blizzaga II at that lvl. So I'm not really suprised hate isn't an issue...
As far as downtime ANY PT with a BRD has practiaclly zero downtime, not all PTs can manage a BRD every time though.

I know how to tank as /NIN, I did it for a long time. on most mobs though it is next to useless.

Also... WAR/MNK with a 1handed axe does very good dmg.. I have no idea were the 1 handed axe=crappy dmg thing got started...1 handed axe still gets Rampage as well and it does the same dmg.

**Denser** · 09-17-2004, 06:01 AM

No offense Sheng, but if your DD's were MNK, RNG or DRK you'd have a harder time.

**laicram** · 09-17-2004, 11:52 AM

War/Nin is still 4th best tank - behind Pal, Nin (w/skill), and War/Mnk. However, War/Nin's abilities (pre-74) are better utilized as damage dealer and trick-setup partner.

Dual Wield II let's you attack a lil faster, and gives an extra swing/chance for Double Attack to activate. This is a bonus for DDs, not a backbone for tanking and hate-keeping.

As Sheng pointed out, Utsu Ichi for tanking it can work well if you have smart teammates that can help you recast - but how often do we get to PT w/smart ppl? If no one knows how to work w/you, the most realistic application of utsu ichi is to setup Trick Attack, or to avoid damage after doing a massive WS.

What bugs me, is that a clueless Brd/Whm PT leader WOULD pick a War/Nin over a War/Mnk to tank - due too lack of knowledge =/ ...Just to cover-my-@$$, I just wanna say that between /mnk or /nin tanks, gear and skill are still the most important thing - sub job comes after!

**Techboy** · 09-17-2004, 05:38 PM

There are two method for WARs to tank:

1) WAR/MNK, stand in front of the mob and take hits. WAR/MNK has shield, and dodge to avoid taking damages. Boost, counter and DD for keeping aggro.

2) WAR/NIN, stand in front of the mob and avoid taking hits with utsesumi. WAR/NIN dual wield DD for keeping hate or can choose to use shield but for less DD.

WAR/NIN tanks relies on having smarter party members. a) A DRK or BLM casting stun when need it. b) any melee that can provoke the mob off you for recasting utsesumi.

*Provoke and Warcry for both combos.

I don't doubt WAR/MNK can tank. I'm only saying when done correctly WAR/NIN is more MP efficient. Also in my experience, having a BRD makes a big difference for a WAR/NIN tank.

**retrosolid** · 09-17-2004, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Techboy

2) WAR/NIN, stand in front of the mob and avoid taking hits with utsesumi. WAR/NIN dual wield DD for keeping hate or can choose to use shield but for less DD.

avoid hits? your thinking of NIN/WAR... WAR/NIN has a few free hits and then becomes a Massive mp sink (much more so than WAR/MNK). In theory utsusemi sounds great. In reallity it isn't all its cracked up to be...unless yoru NIN main.

Also....No a WAR/NIN can NOT use a shield. Hate would be way to difficult to maintain with only 1 axe.

From personal experience WAR/MNK is much more MP efficient because it takes less dmg as a whole

EDIT: Seriously I'm getting sick of all these people that keep bringing up points on how WAR/NIN is a better tank when they havn't even tried WAR/MNK past 50. I've done both and I've found that WAR/MNK is MUCH better for tanking.

I was all about WAR/NIN before I read someone say that /MNK is just as good for tanking, and guess what...instead of fighting tooth and nail with out even knowing what I was talking about...get this... I TRIED IT OUT MYSELF
I found that not only was WAR/MNK on equal footing with WAR/NIN if surpases it by far in the relm of tanking.

EDIT2: wow that sounded really mean :sweat: erm..sry it was late w

**Jaggywaggy** · 09-18-2004, 08:58 AM

I have to agree with the original poster war/mnk is overall going to be less of a mp sink. From counters, blocks, parries combined, a war/mnk can almost avoid as many hits as a war/nin, and yet take far less damage inbetween.

Personal preference here but as a war/mnk, I'd rather go for a greataxe, especially if a galka tank. One of my favorite aspects of war tanks is they can deal decent damage while tanking, greataxe works with this rather well for war/mnk.

And pick up parties can rarely find brds, and people capable of stunning when you need it, at the exact right time. You're speaking of a whole different game if you want to mention statics.
I know the typical xp of pickups vs static. For example, my LS started a low lvl job static(for fun), when we went through the dunes we were getting about 5-6k per hour without trying at all, only me(brd) and the drk had above average gear too. Pick up parties are typically bad-good 2-4k per hour with some exceptions.

**kuu** · 09-18-2004, 09:36 AM

Power over defense or defense over power.

Leaving the War/thf aside

War/nin would be equiped with DD gear, not Vit gear. This makes Utsusemi tanking all that much more useful. You're pushing out more damage to end the fight before it kills you.

This is not a bad thing for mp sinking. If you can do 1 chain set (chain 4? 5?) in 6 minutes and rest for 1 minute for mp and reset chain

It can be better then a war/mnk which would be stacked with vit gears, and while less mp sink you would finish a chain set slower and manybe even miss chain 4 or 5.

You have a set of maybe 8 minutes and no downtime.

This does not mean war/mnk isn't good, but conditions can favor one or another. PT members, how many mobs in the area, how long is your pull, how is competition, how dangerous is the area. etc.

Though I don't suggest any war being sole tank. 2 semi tankers is a lot more effective or even 3. But utsusemi did change, so who knows.

Potential wize, war/nin is better, as faster is better, living up to it though is another thing.

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Why I quit using /NIN sub (kinda long)

Why I quit using /NIN sub (kinda long)

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