WAR and Shields.

[ZQM]

Originally posted by lun4tic
Utsusemi takes forever to cast

?

Utsusemi is only about 2 seconds of cast time. Unless you're referring to :ichi, but if they use :ichi often then they are very, very bad. :Ichi should only be used a couple times per party. If the ninjas you PT with do nothing but cast Utsusemi, then 1) they need a LOT more evasion and 2) they are bad beyond all belief.


And a NIN plans to keep hate by attacking isn't exactly thinking correctly. Those 10-20 damage hits aren't going to do much for hate keeping.

[Xien]

Originally posted by lun4tic
Utsusemi takes forever to cast, which takes time away from attacking. This is why ninjas can't keep hate off me, and why Haste sometimes becomes a tank only spell so they can keep hate.

Maybe the ninjas are crappy, or maybe I'm just too powerful. This thread is getting old you keep pointing out the same points, and I keep refuting them, then you guys turn kiddish and insult me as if it furthers your point and purpose of posting.

*Shrugs* To me, you haven't really been able to defend well against most of the points here. Maybe it's your use of "kiddish" against anyone who argues against your point that pisses me off.

Xien

[Macht]

Wow, so much flaming going on here you could almost make smores. :p

As far as I've seen Utsusumei has it's advantages and disadvantages. In as many situations were it works great there is an equal number were it doesn't. I've seen the Ichi and Ni combination used by a Ninja quite well. Again though weather you are getting hit and loosing hate that way, you are still loosing hate as time passes so either way that 10-20 damage isn't ultimatly helping at all with hate control weather you get hit or not.

What helps with hate control for a NIN is being a NIN/WAR to use provoke and then avoid as many hits as possible. Timing is a big part of getting Utsusumei back up in mid-battle, but more often then not I've had my Utsusumei canceled before I could get it done with the stronger monsters. It isn't impossible to do but to think that you can always do it while loosing only 1 round of your attacks is quite puposterous.

Though going with an entire party of melee's that can avoid damage by juggling it with utsusumei is nice, it by no means makes that group godly. They are trading 1 risk for another, still a gamble but juggling it just right and it'll work. However this still ends up with something being traded, in this case a near invicibility for a few lost attacks. So time is still used either way.

In closing this I don't see how lun4tic held up his end of the debate to well by disqualifying the suggestions nor do I see poweryoda holding his end to well by making such a statement that his party preffered his /WAR over his /NIN (Doesn't that just state more in lun4tics defense? Even though you were trying to defend yourself?).

[CarbonFibre]

If you have someone like a Monk or Samurai in the party, and you really have trouble casting Utsemi, just have them voke it off of you for a bit. Monk can take a hit or two, then you voke back. Samurai can anticipate one attack with Third Eye and then you can voke back. The only trouble I see with that routine is it further hampering a blink tank's ability to keep hate.

[poweryoga]

Oh yes, the holier then thou response. This is why I can count the amount of rangers I like on one hand with no fingers.

I have none of that attitude, but the way you defend your incompetence with such vigor is disgusting, that's all.

Why don't you actually TRY some of the things people said instead of flat out denying it? All you're saying is "fuck no it can't be done". All the examples you're bringing up are shitty, full of fallacious arguments, and most of all, you refuse to listen to other people's ideas/experience/opinions.

If i can do it on my rng while taking hits from tormentors/ovilinks, why can't you do it on mere bats and beetles? Only time i take hits from them is when my counter is down and I run out of shadows, or it does a ws in the middle of my casting. With your pt casting slow or elegy on the mob, you should have MORE than enough time for blink to cast, EVEN if its Ichi.

I'm not going to go into the whole Ninja tank thing, that's off topic.

Don't tell me the bullshit with "you have no experience stfu", I probably used it longer than you have.

Don't take a look at my profile and say "stfu Rng/War you dunno nin tanking" because only an idiot wouldn't lvl up a Nin sub for rng too.

[imstimpy]

HAHAHA!!

After level 33 I never used a shield to tank. Probably could have done so with great success, but I was n00bing it back then. My most recent tanking experiences have been with two axes for max accuracy and damage or great axe for shield break. I think an axe and a shield is a very viable tanking solution, but I never considered it much. I parry about as often as I've noticed myself blocking with a shield so they are probably on equal ground. I haven't watched too closely, but there should be a roll to parry with each weapon when dual wielding. This isn't much different from a roll to parry and a roll to block when carrying a shield, but you are losing the extra defense when going without a shield as a WAR/NIN.

Unless I was in a NIN+THF party, I didn't party with a THF. A RNG is a rare thing so that left me as the puller more often than not. Utsusemi, in this case, didn't matter much at all until I started pulling raptors (up to that point, if you pulled smart you didn't get hit). The raptors run faster than a player does so you can't pull safely from any distance. They hit hard too. At 100-150 damage per hit and having a full utsusemi cast, I could still come into camp with under 200 hitpoints. They run too fast. Same with toramas I've heard. It is your lifeblood in this case because you simply can't survive a pull without it. When monsters start hitting for 100+ on a regular hit, I think it is hard to turn a cold shoulder to utsusemi and being able to blink 6-9 hits per battle. Being ignorant about the mechanics of using utsusemi also doesn't make it any worse of an ability.

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by Xien
*Shrugs* To me, you haven't really been able to defend well against most of the points here. Maybe it's your use of "kiddish" against anyone who argues against your point that pisses me off.

Xien

No, I think it's because your a dumbass who argues points from hearsay rather then experience.

I have none of that attitude, but the way you defend your incompetence with such vigor is disgusting, that's all.

Why don't you actually TRY some of the things people said instead of flat out denying it? All you're saying is "fuck no it can't be done". All the examples you're bringing up are shitty, full of fallacious arguments, and most of all, you refuse to listen to other people's ideas/experience/opinions.

If i can do it on my rng while taking hits from tormentors/ovilinks, why can't you do it on mere bats and beetles? Only time i take hits from them is when my counter is down and I run out of shadows, or it does a ws in the middle of my casting. With your pt casting slow or elegy on the mob, you should have MORE than enough time for blink to cast, EVEN if its Ichi.

I'm not going to go into the whole Ninja tank thing, that's off topic.

Don't tell me the bullshit with "you have no experience stfu", I probably used it longer than you have.

Don't take a look at my profile and say "stfu Rng/War you dunno nin tanking" because only an idiot wouldn't lvl up a Nin sub for rng too.

And you, you're just making shit up on the spot to lob insults around as if it actually helps. Just because you run your posts through your older brother to make them sound more intellegent doesn't mean you know what your talking about. Although some of your points have been straight on, you still don't know what you're talking about.



Since I'm not 'because I think it's true it must mean it's true' kind of person like these two, I'll actually post true to life info on warriors, and shields.

You probably havn't been using a shield your whole warrior career, so you wont block much. It'll just act as a bit of extra defense that nullifies an attack here and there.

You don't lose as much hate when you block an attack then when you absorb one, but as a warrior you can't keep hate with flash and heals. With one weapon you wont be gaining much hate to hold it.

Using two weapons helps hold hate, but doesn't do much for defense. You get to parry every once in a while, but not that often. I opted for this so I can keep hate while everybody else does their job. Having a thief trick off you also helps holding hate.

Using Utsusemi, which has been widely disputed in this thread, can work but you'll end you dropping some big money to help it happen. Mages and Bards can help with slowing it down, but you can't rely on others too much when they're set in their ways. If you have Hojo: Ichi you can slow it down yourself but it wont last long. You'll cast U:I before the battle, then when your down to one shadow cast it again, then randomly throughout the battle after casting H:I.

The only problem with Utsu is it's incredibly long cast time. Without Hojo or Slow you'll definately be knocked out of it, which only causes you to lose hate.

My opinion, which is continually underfire by knownothings, is that it's easier to hold hate with Dual Wield II and Haste, then it is when you try and shadow the attacks the whole fight. If you have a bard or red mage to slow the attacks, they can also refresh the mages. Both ways lower downtime, but only one is more reliable.

Unfortunately you'll have people telling you Utsu is some godlike spell that should be used at all times just because it absorbs attacks. I thought this at first, but now that I've used it extensively it's just crap. Unless coupled with U:N and a lot of trick attacks you wont have much luck with it.

[poweryoga]

And you, you're just making shit up on the spot to lob insults around as if it actually helps. Just because you run your posts through your older brother to make them sound more intellegent doesn't mean you know what your talking about. Although some of your points have been straight on, you still don't know what you're talking about.

Making shit up? Its called experience moron.

and I don't have an older sibling. I'm glad you think I sound intelligent.

Like I said before (since you didn't bother to read), its easier to recast utsusemi with elegy or slow. (or both) I know it has a longass recharge time, and I know that if I can still recast it while fighting stuff a lvl 70 exps off, you can do it against stupid bats or beetles in garliage.

Didn't I say the only time I get hit is when the counter's down? Yeah, during that 30 seconds you can haste and dual wield all you want. When the counter comes up, you better be ready to recast it so you can absorb 3 hits. Haste also reduces the timer on utsusemi so you can cast it more frequently.

Most of the fight shouldn't even last over 3 minutes anyways. That's not much time spent on recasting. It doesn't make THAT much of a differnce in your damage output. You lose more hate by getting hit 3 times than spending 4 seconds recasting utsusemi.

If you get hit for 60-70 damage a pop * 3.

that's about 180-210 damage you'l be taking. You lose that much hate AND the mage spends MP healing you.

If you spend 4 seconds casting that, you gain additional hate from utsusemi AND you save your mages a cure 3.

Cost shouldn't be an issue. Blink tanks use up much more shihei than you ever will. If that's what's causing you to not use Utsusemi, shame on you for dragging your party into the gutter for your own selfishness.

Having a rng at 70 means I have a war at 35 and a nin at 30. (i know time to lvl sub). That means I've tanked crawlers, beetles, and bats before.

So don't tell me I know nothing.

[Xien]

Originally posted by lun4tic
No, I think it's because your a dumbass who argues points from hearsay rather then experience.

Idiot. Just which of my points were from hearsay?

- I have tanked as a War/NIN.
- I have tanked in a 2 War/Nin PT.
- I have tanked in a Rdm/ Brd PT.
- I have tanked in a Whm/Smn PT.
- I have PTed in Utsu Teams (Nin/War, Rng/Nin, War/Nin)
- I have pulled Raptors in VoS as a War/Nin (and dear god people, don't send your dragoon to pull please).
- I have PTed with THFs who appreciate that they can SATA off me all they want.
- Utsu has saved me from COUNTLESS special attacks, Jetstream, Screwdriver, Raptors Chomp attack, Crab's special, goblin rushes, etc.

Originally posted by lun4tic

Using Utsusemi, which has been widely disputed in this thread, can work but you'll end you dropping some big money to help it happen.

What? Big Money?
- Snipers x 2 = 800k
- Haubergeon = 1.6M
- Assault Earring = 150k
- Life Belt = 50k
- Comb. Cast's Boom. = 50k
- Valkyrie Mask = 270k

-Utsusemi -ichi = --->100k<-- bought from the AH. Cheaper if you do the quest.

-3x stack of Shihei in Jeuno = 18k per lvling session if you're tanking. 1 stack 6k if you're not. Very doubtful you'll run out of shihei with that much. I never did.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by lun4tic

Mages and Bards can help with slowing it down, but you can't rely on others too much when they're set in their ways. If you have Hojo: Ichi you can slow it down yourself but it wont last long. You'll cast U:I before the battle, then when your down to one shadow cast it again, then randomly throughout the battle after casting H:I.

What the heck do you mean set in their ways? That they won't slow or elegy? I'd faint if I hear about a RDM that doesn't cast slow. Enfeebling skill is A for RDM...they'd better cast enfeebles. I really don't think that point can be disputed. And Bard's elegies? Is one song too much to ask for? I'll tell him to trade Foe Req. for Elegy if it is. I think most bards would be insulted if someone accuses them of not being able to handle one more song when they can already cast hunter's prelude, trenody for SC, keep the PLD under ballad, and foe lullaby a gobby bomb in one battle.

And please, no one uses Hojo: Ichi. You're already subbing NIN having a gimped NIN skill. That thing won't stick AT ALL.

Originally posted by lun4tic

My opinion, which is continually underfire by knownothings, is that it's easier to hold hate with Dual Wield II and Haste, then it is when you try and shadow the attacks the whole fight. If you have a bard or red mage to slow the attacks, they can also refresh the mages. Both ways lower downtime, but only one is more reliable.

As I said before, I get Dual Wield II as well. And I get Haste since every good RDM or WHM knows that Haste reduces Utsusemi recast time.

Refresh or Slow? Which one to choose? Dear god man, why not choose both! Refresh has a thing called a recast timer. I can pretty much do whatever during the time it's down. It's not like I'm ALWAYS casting refresh >_>

In case you don't get it, this was my cast order:
Refresh myself
Haste 1 melee
Slow
Para
Refresh other mage
Check if slow/para resisted
if resisted, recast slow/para
else recast frost/drown/bhablhba
Haste other melee
repeat, etc.

I'm pretty sure bards can fill in Elegy along with Ballad. If I was a bard (and I'm not) it would probably go like this:

-When puller goes out to pull, cast Ballad 1+2
-Puller comes back, Minuet+Madrigal
-Elegy/Hunter's Prelude/whatever
-Ballad1+2 runs out run back and cast Ballad1+2

Originally posted by lun4tic

Unfortunately you'll have people telling you Utsu is some godlike spell that should be used at all times just because it absorbs attacks. I thought this at first, but now that I've used it extensively it's just crap. Unless coupled with U:N and a lot of trick attacks you wont have much luck with it.

It's not godly. I don't think anyone said it was. But it's most definately not:

Originally posted by lun4tic

because it's worthless.

Xien

Edit:
Assault Earring - 1.5 m ---> Assault Earring - 150k
What the heck was I thinking -.-

[imstimpy]

You don't lose as much hate when you block an attack then when you absorb one, but as a warrior you can't keep hate with flash and heals.

Where did you find that information? Hate is supposedly lost when you take damage. Not taking damage is not taking damage. Let's say you do lose more hate by absorbing an attack. Fine, now recast utsusemi which gains it all back.

Using two weapons helps hold hate, but doesn't do much for defense. You get to parry every once in a while, but not that often. I opted for this so I can keep hate while everybody else does their job.

What? How is this a bad thing? You deal more damage, lose the defense of the shield, but don't lose the defensive ability since you now parry instead of block.

Using Utsusemi, which has been widely disputed in this thread, can work but you'll end you dropping some big money to help it happen.

You sir, are the only one that is really "disputing" it. If you are worried about a mere 100k then you are playing the wrong job. I just spent 225k on an earring that gave me a mere +2ACC +3EVA over my previous earring. You are going to hate level 55 when you have to buy 300k worth of equipment that all melee are expected to have; nothing fancy, just mandatory.

Mages and Bards can help with slowing it down, but you can't rely on others too much when they're set in their ways. If you have Hojo: Ichi you can slow it down yourself but it wont last long. You'll cast U:I before the battle, then when your down to one shadow cast it again, then randomly throughout the battle after casting H:I.

If you can't rely on others, how are you partying? You have to rely on a mage to cure you, a tank to keep the softies alive, a puller to chose the right mobs, etc, etc. Try a new argument. Unless you are a NIN, which you aren't, you are not going to land any ichi ninjitsu on anybody but yourself.

The only problem with Utsu is it's incredibly long cast time. Without Hojo or Slow you'll definately be knocked out of it, which only causes you to lose hate.

You just said it costs too much too, and that it is overrated, not useful while tanking, loses more hate than blocking with a shield. Just what ARE you arguing? You can cast utsusemi without slow, you just have to pay attention. It takes skill. That doesn't apply much in a party setting since a RDM or BRD is considered mandatory in most places, anyway. Elegy slows so much you have to try to mess up an utsusemi cast.

Really, you act all high and mighty with your educated and refined posts and yet all you do is continue to prove your ignorance. "Blah blah blah, you made that up", why on earth would somebody make something up? Just to refute your arguments? Don't flatter yourself. True to life experience? I'd say atleast 30% of your information is wrong, speculated, or so opinionated it fails to hold any water.

[Reaperx90]

The biggest problem I have with recasting Utsusemi mid-battle is lag. There may be a window big enough to recast it, but that window occurs around 1 second before I see it on my screen. To those of you with high bandwidth connections: Go kiss your router (or modem or whatever you may be using) right now, for it is saving you from the hell that is a dial-up connection ><;

This may be the lag causing this effect, but when I cast Utsusemi mid battle, I have to set it to where the enemy hits me at about about 20% casting. If the enemy hits near the beginning of the cast it isn't interrupted, but anywhere after the 30% mark and it gets blocked. You people are so caught up debating whether it's possible you don't bother to say how you do it. (If for those of you with high bandwidth connections it's simply cast right after the attack, then disregard that comment).

Here's my take on the whole thing: Recasting it mid-battle is very possible if you know how to do it. Saving the MP of healers is secondary to almost nothing - and I guarantee you that the damage you dish out by avoiding Utsusemi will NOT give you as much hate as the mage spamming a huge cure on you. However, if your prey has some capacities that render you unable to do it reliably then don't bother with it.

Also, if you have a BRD or RDM in the party, just beat the living shit out of them until they keep up the Slow/Elegy. Those are two strong abilities that only they can reliably use, so it is their responsibility to use them (especially if it means saving the tank from taking 3 hits every 24-30 seconds). As a BRD (though it's not in my profile =P) I can tell you it's not that hard to do. Not to mention the enemy is losing a lot of attacks just by virtue of the fact that he is attacking slower.

[imstimpy]

Spell interruption is only between 20%-80%. If you get hit during the first or last 20% of your cast, you will succeed. Dial-up or not, you time for the mob to hit you as close to 20% as possible. Most mobs attack too fast to start casting immediately after you get hit.

However, if your prey has some capacities that render you unable to do it reliably then don't bother with it.

That is the trick. If you continue to fail trying to cast, you are just going to hurt the party more than if you simply stop doing it. This is where the skill in timing comes in.

[lun4tic]

Originally posted by imstimpy

Really, you act all high and mighty with your educated and refined posts and yet all you do is continue to prove your ignorance. "Blah blah blah, you made that up", why on earth would somebody make something up? Just to refute your arguments? Don't flatter yourself. True to life experience? I'd say atleast 30% of your information is wrong, speculated, or so opinionated it fails to hold any water.

How could it be any of those? I'm a war/nin who tanks often; only an idiot would think I wouldn't try different ways of tanking to find the best way.

Xien, just reread your whole God damn post, you make less and less sense every time you post. You're just piggybacking on imstimpy.

I've made my points, just wallow in your ignorance some more so you can feel better about yourselves.

[Xien]

Originally posted by lun4tic
How could it be any of those? I'm a war/nin who tanks often; only an idiot would think I wouldn't try different ways of tanking to find the best way.

Xien, just reread your whole God damn post, you make less and less sense every time you post. You're just piggybacking on imstimpy.

I've made my points, just wallow in your ignorance some more so you can feel better about yourselves.

*sigh* Since I can't seem to get through to your thick-skull, I'll boil it down to the basics:

Utsusemi: Ichi = good.


Come on, I don't think it can get any more basic than that?

Xien

[poweryoga]

Dun matter to me either way, I've tried to tell him its possible but if he chooses to be hard headed and suck, not my problem.