war/nin=pld/war,nin/war??

[tomiko]

Quote: Well, i'm actually thinking of use an axe and a sword, since this allows me access to 2 diff sets of ws.

This is perfectly fine. It allows you to skill up 2 sets of weapons at once and allows for more renkei possibilities. Some end game swords have amazing stats, and have lower delay than axes. It is a rankB weapons for us, however. You should use axe as main hand and sword in off hand if possible.


Quote: I'd really like to hear from a high level warrior if Samurai is an absolute must.

/Sam is really nice at level 60, as u can shield break and also raging rush on same mob, but not necessary. /Thf is great for damage. SA+Raging Rush should add at least 100 to your WS and ensure a hit. We get our next best WS, Mistral Axe at lvl66, making /nin come back into play. Also Shield Break and Full Break are hardly useful at higher lvls because mobs will resist them so much. I'm /nin even with G Axe now (cus its my only full lvl sub -_-) and I do damage just fine. I've been puller for like 40 lvls... so I Utsuemi.

[BrotherRaven]

Here is my set PT:

PLD/WAR (me)
WAR/SAM
BRD/WHM
DRK/WAR
BLM/SMN
???????? (Either a WHM or RDM we grab).

Consider that there is a PLD in our PT, our WAR is perhaps the most offensive a WAR can get. Every item is dedicated to dmg and accuracy. It is very impressive the insane amount of dmg he can deal. So if you plan to ever take your WAR the offensive route, 2Hand Ax with Major Dmg Gear (Our War doesn't use any AF anymore) is one really fun way to go. :spin:

However, that is not to say that WAR can't tank. I do implore you to go WAR/NIN. You are going to take way too much dmg as a WAR/MNK or anything else. You must dodge those things attacks or else the WHM will be curing too much.

There is also a few things to do differently with a WAR as a tank as opposed to a PLD. Here is basically all the differences.

Pros: Emnity is alot easier. WAR Body AF has as much emnity as the entire PLD set. Of course, Dual Wielding Axes you will do more dmg compared to my deadly tickling with my sword. Also, MP recovery isn't important as you dont cast, so you can go rdm/brd less (although Brd accuracy songs is important). Also WAR/NIN has its place in tanking HNMs.

Cons: Even if you go Nin sub, you are gonna take more Dmg, so the healer(s) will be more stressed. Most War tanks dont go Shield and dont have an A+ in Shield anyways so you wont be blocking as often as a PLD; the shield in essence is a sort of dmg reduction/alter form of evasion. Of course a PLD needs some sort of MP recovery. My set PT used to only go with a RDM as most of the healing was covered by the BRD, RDM, and myself. Of course if accidents happen, your PLD can save the team whereas it is harder for a War. Also with multiple adds, I can control hate on 1 or 2 or 3 creatures by timing my Flash, Provoke and other abilites, whereas you cant do such a thing.


Lastly, I would recommend to still level up your 1Hand Sword for the Weapon Skill: Spirits Within.
This is an amazing WS. It does dmg based on only 2 things: your HPS and your TP. It doesn't care about attack rating, nor the sword you use. It also doesn't care about the creature's defense or vit. This means that if it is adamantoise or a bunny, you will do the same amount (about 650 dmg w/ 1400 life if you have max HP and max TP). But it is a MUST for any serious players who intend to take on difficult HNMs.

I feel the most offensive WAR is a WAR/SAM and the most defensive is a WAR/NIN. No matter which one you end up playing (or if you go PLD/WAR) make sure to understand your job combo, its good and bad points and accomodate to them.

Edit: I'd like to 2nd what Tomiko mentioned about your set pt. Having no Brd or Rdm will mean more downtime. And in a party with a pld/war & brd/whm and rdm, you probably wont need the whm. I never used one until the late 60s when mages in general were hard to find and our rdm stoped PTing with us at 60 ;_;

[Bigokk McGock]

Also with multiple adds, I can control hate on 1 or 2 or 3 creatures by timing my Flash, Provoke and other abilites, whereas you cant do such a thing.

This is untrue...

I can also control hate on 3 or more monsters.

Provoke
Ninjitsu
WS
Warcry (basically acts as an AE provoke)

I feel the most offensive WAR is a WAR/SAM and the most defensive is a WAR/NIN.

I also disagree with this statement.

I feel that WAR/NIN can keep up with WAR/SAM in damage 60+ (before 60 WAR/NIN win that contest hands down because the only thing that makes /SAM good is Meditate, IMO).

***Warning, super_nerd_is_taking_control_of_my_brain-time***

At 50, you are getting an automatic 15% haste if you are using /NIN and using dual weapons. Once you take that into consideration (and I have parsed this), it will outdamage your Great Axe by about 6+ DPS (Damage Per Second).

At 52 for example (my level), let's take a T.M. Espadon+2 (DMG: 39 DLY: 241 +12 ATK) and an Executioner's Axe (DMG:77 DLY:504). That's a level 54 Axe, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

With 15% innate Haste, the new delay of the TM Espadon+2 is 205 (rounded up)

TM Espadon+2 DMG:39 DLY:205 -
*Average DPS is about 38.5

Executioner's Axe DMG:77 DLY:504 -
*Average DPS is about 31

(*theory using the same code that has proven correct in every previous parsing I've done. Low defense/evasion monsters without ACC ot ATK factored in)

From all my testing, I have come to the conclusion that there is no Damage Bonus for 2 hand weapons, so the weapons can be compaired as:

(2x TM Esp.+2) DMG:78 DLY:410 > (Exe. Axe)DMG:77 DLY:504

[Lunakat]

I cant believe this. Forgot about the support class, and rdm is my second favorite class to play. Well, my blm has shown an interest in working brd, but would that be rough to lose blm? Also, my thf has a higher lvl rdm also, maybe i can convince him to go that route.

Thanks again
Lunakat

[BrotherRaven]

Concerning Add Control:

Well then if we are going to label the lesser Hate Generators,
I have:
Provoke
Flash
WS (even Circle Blade)
Shield Bash
Sentinel
Rampart
Cure IIIs (this is a bit tricky as it is dependent on rate of mp regen of course).

When I am referring to is actually holding hate on 2 or 3 mobs while your PT go all out on them. Go try Adamantoise with a couple adds; then you will know what truely holding 3 mobs is all about. Or Aqaurius with a couple crabby friends.


I also disagree with your oversimplification of the NIN vs SAM subclass. You HAVE to factor in defense and vit of the mob or PLDs are dmg dealers too!!!!!!!. So yes, that is a nice theory but it is theorycrafting. Also, your claim on your parsing's cant be verified because we have no idea the equipment and abilities the WAR/SAM and WAR/NIN are using. Lastly, things like offensive foods, abilities and equipment will favor a 2Hand Weapon over 2 1Hand Weapons due to the way defense and dmg are calculated. So sure, maybe if both wars were doing defender and eating fishkabobs and had on AF, they would maybe end up swing the same but equip them with some nice offensive gear, food and the WAR/SAM will do amazing things. My DRK in my set PT tries really hard to pull it off the hate but doesn't even compare to our WAR/SAM who swings usually 150~200 and does so much more WSs from TP store and Meditate (although now the DRK with 2Hsword and the 225 WS (i think) makes for a nice level 3 renkei does quite an amount of dmg (so where in the 2000s sometimes).

I think a WAR/NIN MIGHT come close if they used a few haste items, and used the new level 74 earring that give Dual Wield +1.
I'll will go check on mystertour about high end 1hand ax vs 2hand ax as I dont know those weapons that well but I think there is a +1 TP Store GreatAx there too!
Not too sure but all my friends and I are in the low 60s~70s so we can't test such things yet
But at the same time, a NIN/WAR might also be a better dmg dealer (finally) by havin 3 dual wields, so many haste items AND that earing. :spin:

[Bigokk McGock]

Lastly, things like offensive foods, abilities and equipment will favor a 2Hand Weapon over 2 1Hand Weapons due to the way defense and dmg are calculated.

Please provide these calculations to back up your claim, I don't mean to be rude, but I cannot believe you with all of the testing I have done...it's just not true from my findings.

In recent XP PTs I cannot use Berserk or I steal Hate from the PAL for the whole fight. Even without Berserk, if I don't wait 10 seconds to engage the mob after the PAL does, I will still gain Hate...and even then sometimes I still do...I just do too much damage.

[Xien]

Originally posted by Bigokk McGock


This is untrue...

I can also control hate on 3 or more monsters.

Provoke
Ninjitsu
WS
Warcry (basically acts as an AE provoke)



I also disagree with this statement.

I feel that WAR/NIN can keep up with WAR/SAM in damage 60+ (before 60 WAR/NIN win that contest hands down because the only thing that makes /SAM good is Meditate, IMO).

***Warning, super_nerd_is_taking_control_of_my_brain-time***

At 50, you are getting an automatic 15% haste if you are using /NIN and using dual weapons. Once you take that into consideration (and I have parsed this), it will outdamage your Great Axe by about 6+ DPS (Damage Per Second).

At 52 for example (my level), let's take a T.M. Espadon+2 (DMG: 39 DLY: 241 +12 ATK) and an Executioner's Axe (DMG:77 DLY:504). That's a level 54 Axe, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

With 15% innate Haste, the new delay of the TM Espadon+2 is 205 (rounded up)

TM Espadon+2 DMG:39 DLY:205 -
*Average DPS is about 38.5

Executioner's Axe DMG:77 DLY:504 -
*Average DPS is about 31

(*theory using the same code that has proven correct in every previous parsing I've done. Low defense/evasion monsters without ACC ot ATK factored in)

From all my testing, I have come to the conclusion that there is no Damage Bonus for 2 hand weapons, so the weapons can be compaired as:

(2x TM Esp.+2) DMG:78 DLY:410 > (Exe. Axe)DMG:77 DLY:504

Regarding dualwield vs. 2 hand: That's really not a fair comparison. If I know I'm going to use GAX and not tank, I'd sub THF.

Pre-rampage, Sturmwind really owns all other weaponskills we have. Not to mention with sneak attack, we don't miss our shield breaks.

Berserk/sneak attack sturmwind can net me consistant 300+ damages while just a normal Berserk sturmwind nets me 180 dmg. Since you'll probably be ending skillchains, the higher the damage, the more damage the skillchain efect. Also factor in that sneak attack gives you a free critical with a 2h weapon every 1 minute.

And isn't a T.M. Espadon a 1h-sword? Or am I mistaken? If it is a 1h-sword, wouldn't we have a lower skill cap and miss more often?

Xien

[Bigokk McGock]

I get consistant 300-400+ Fast Blades...

Sturmwind misses both hits far too much to be very useful.

Yes I am using SWORDs at the moment because they are the best ration weapon of any other weapon at this level. They far outperform all other weapons we can use at 52, even considering 4 less skill.

I'm a numbers nerd, if my numbers came out higher using GA, I would be telling you the results of how much better GA is.

The big crit is nothing without CONSISTANT damage. 2 misses in a row with GA and you're really hurting your PT...

2x+ the number of swings = more chances for double attack to trigger, misses are less costly.

For Warriors at 52, 1h still way outperform 2h.

[BrotherRaven]

Hmmmm, perhaps we are going off on a tangent concerning pulling the hate off a PLD; that just gives us more unneccissary variables (how the PLD plays, are they using mermaid ring, healing amount etc) so I am sorry about bringing that up in my previous post.

Back to the debate, I'll try to come up with a more complete explanation later tonite when I have more time. My research has been playing of course with a WAR/SAM all thru my PLD job and also from other WAR/NIN who have played with us and seen my friend in action. Until then, I hope we get some more feedback from WAR/NIN and WAR/SAM. I think that one patch nerfed the full break effect so there seems to be less WAR/SAM's in general.

[Xien]

Originally posted by Bigokk McGock
I get consistant 300-400+ Fast Blades...

Sturmwind misses both hits far too much to be very useful.

Yes I am using SWORDs at the moment because they are the best ration weapon of any other weapon at this level. They far outperform all other weapons we can use at 52, even considering 4 less skill.

I'm a numbers nerd, if my numbers came out higher using GA, I would be telling you the results of how much better GA is.

The big crit is nothing without CONSISTANT damage. 2 misses in a row with GA and you're really hurting your PT...

2x+ the number of swings = more chances for double attack to trigger, misses are less costly.

For Warriors at 52, 1h still way outperform 2h.

300-400's FASTBLADES? How the heck? I know Dark's that have trouble doing consistant 400 Guillotines on IT. How the heck do you do that with a Fastblade? Rampage averages 300-400 dmg, and that's a freaking 5 hit. You can do 300-400 with a 2 hitter?

And stacked with sneak attack, Sturmwind is guaranteed one critical hit.

And have you tried dual-weilding double viking axes if you're not tanking? Or having one in your offhand?

[BrotherRaven]

Bigokk McGock, you bring up an excellent point concerning missing hits.

Remember that no matter how many times you flip a coin, you still have a 50% to get either heads or tails. So the swing of the weapon doesn't affect chance to hit or crit or even double attack.

However, the more samples you take the closer your real-measured values will be towards that percetange value. BUT Bigokk please remember that for percentages and probability the GA and the Swords will come out equal for things like Double Attack or Accuracy.

That being said, one thing to consider with my WAR/SAM experience has been the fact we have ALWAYS had a BRD in our party AND our WAR/SAM has focused on accuracy items as there is already me the PLD tanking. Given those facts, our WAR/SAM probably hits alot more often than your typical WAR job. So perhaps in your experience the misses are very costly (as they should be) and lower the GA damage output.

2nd of all, while WS is am important factor in dmg dealing, I have been more impressed with the consistency of dmg dealing that the WAR/SAM has done. Our DRK or RNG or BLM could easily outdo the dmg but those are WS based or MP based. Meanwhile the WAR/SAM constantly does his 200dmg swings (no crit or double attack). Of course the WAR/SAM isn't hurting on WS either as he usually does double duty Renkei & Breaks with Meditate ability.

And just for the record, my WAR/SAM friend CANNOT tank at all, something even a WAR/NIN can perhaps do with blink powders only. Of course that is the sacrifice he has made to do more dmg and have more accuracy.

Finally, the dynamics of Damage DO change as you get beyond the 50s and into the 60s and 70s. I have a strong feeling your numbers will point to 2Hand Weapon advatages as you gain levels. I quickly saw my 1hs dmg fall as i got into the 60s.

[tomiko]

Quote: I cant believe this. Forgot about the support class, and rdm is my second favorite class to play. Well, my blm has shown an interest in working brd, but would that be rough to lose blm? Also, my thf has a higher lvl rdm also, maybe i can convince him to go that route.

blm -> brd...hmm if your blm enjoys doing dmg i dont recommend him changing lol. A brd is a very busy support job (running back and forth between melee and mage camp), but they do wonders for xp. I'd keep the blm tho, their MB are huge. A rdm keeps Refresh up and never runs out of MP with Convert, they enfeeble/heal/nuke. This will keep your mages with good MP levels. rdm >>>> brd in solo work however.

On the WAR/NIN vs WAR/SAM debate.
I'd have to agree with BrotherRaven that /sam will outdamage me in the 60's, especially now with the Multi-hit WS nerf. :mad:
And im using Great Axe as /nin for renkei purposes. Doesnt mean my Gaxe is gimp tho. Raging Rush does 300-500, and i hit for ~100 and critical'ed for 240 @_@
I agree with Bigokk that war/nin can still do mad dmg tho. My Rampage's almost always go for six or more hits. This is because with double attack u give u a chance of an extra hit in WS, AND Dual Wield will also give u a chance! Also Dual Axes have a lower chance per time interval for missing than a Great Axe.
And as i had mentioned b4... Axe's endgame WS > Great Axe endgame WS, making /nin ideal. + we have our blink shield. :spin:

[Xien]

Not really much of an argument regarding end-game since our 225 finisher for GAX is a break compared to Mistral Axe.

I just can't see where pre-rampage wise dual wielding 1h weapons will increase damage compared to 2h-GAXes.

Of course, if anyone does provide proof, guess who's going to do skillups for 1h-axe till cap? :D My 1h-sword is capped due to RDM though ^^b

Xien

[Bigokk McGock]

I just can't see where pre-rampage wise dual wielding 1h weapons will increase damage compared to 2h-GAXes.

Everyone overlooks 15% haste...

I'm logging on to parse some more results and I'll tell you what I find. Hopefully some one made TM Espadon+2s so I can test those out.

[Xien]

Remember to sub THF when using GAX and sturmwind only when sneak is available.