War > Pld,Drg,Drk

[bolaber]

Before you start flaming me for my "stupid" topic please read what i have to say and post your comments.

People say that warriors are 7/7 in terms of attack and defense, while paladin's are 5/10 and dark knight's are 10/5. I have to disagree with that comment. I believe warriors are at least 9/9 if not 10/10 (with a thief). Well.. why do i say that?

Ok, well since i'm a lvl 61 drk and a lvl 40 warrior I would like to start with my own perspective of why war is better than drk first.

Lets take lvl 75 for an example since the stats are the biggest in difference at that lvl these are the stats for an elvaan drk/thf (most common choice) and elvaan war/sam (most common choice for war's that like to deal damage)
Stats - HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHR
War/sam - 1529 0 88 67 70 59 47 64 60
Drk/thf - 1416 236 86 69 73 58 62 57 48

How war is better?

1) War has higher strength
2) Accuracy to a war does not matter as to a dark knight. If a warrior uses Gaxe (which hits equally as hard as a scythe) and uses shield break at the beginning of each battle, then a war hits just as often as a dark with good +acc stuff.
3) Since war's dont have to worry about +acc stuff, they can use +atk +str items. Although my warrior is only at lvl 40, i barely ever miss after the second battle (when i get to use my first shield break). Thus, I wear all +str stuff and +atk stuff. (The lvl 36 +3 strength rings cost less than sniper ring). Ok, so with all this strength
4) So how much harder do I hit? I hit for about 20~30 more damage per hit. How often? Just as often. In fact i end each battle with at least 100 TP for the next monster to shield break again.

So what's my conclusion? Warrior's deal more damage than dark knights. So what? well.. what's the point of inviting a dark knight if it deals less damage than a war?


Ok, and now lets move on to dragoon. There's not much to proove here because they're the same as dark knights except they have lower strength and they wear the same amounts of +acc stuff... so nuff said about dragoons.

Ok, now to the spot where i cannot completely confirm, since i dont have a paladin myself. I party with paladin's regularly because i'm a berserk hore and love to use meat mithkabobs. My defense/vit goes to hell when i do so. But sometimes when i dont have a paladin i use my axe/shield and tank just as well. Voke the first 3 times for 90 seconds then save the rest of the voke for the occasional hate lost (based on imac2much's theory about provoke..). I never lose hate as a warrior even with a ranger and 2 blm's in my party. (without a thief). So with a thief i would be able to keep hate even better.

Now anyways, most likely if i'm going to tank as a war, i'll be using war/nin instead of war/sam. I don't think i need to say must that at lvl 75 war/nin is a better tank than pld/war. But before that, a War/nin with Utsusemi: Ichi and a ninja can tank just as good as a paladin. Yes, paladin's take less damage per hit, but with the Utsusemi: Ichi it averages out on slower non-double attacking monsters. And even if the damage that the war takes in doesnt average out, the damage the war willl deal is significant'y more than a paladin's, which is enough to end the battle fast enough before taking that much damage. With the help of fishkabobs, war's can become even better tanks. And if needed to, war's can use defender at lvl 25 (pld's can't use it until lvl 50). And AF armor..... the body piece alone gives more emnity than the paladin's entire set. I don't think i need to say anymore than that.



So,
assuming you didnt fall asleep reading this, i would greatlly appreciate any non-flaming inputs about my input about warrior. I honestly think its an awesome job. Its as good or if not better than a dark, and its as good and if not better than a paladin. It is not worse than both. It is not a 7/7.

I give war a two thumbs up

[Rico]

A fan of war's is a fan of mine . But you can't compare a war to a drk they just hit harder... all of drks abilities are offensive and a wars abilities is BOTH offense and defense so we are even out, we are the rdm of melee. I carry vit ascessories when i tank and i have my atk earings for attacking. We can't hold hate like a PLD and we can't deal dmg like a DRK nuff said.

[Argonic]

You are ignoring a number of important factors. What about Weapon Skills? Yes Shield break is very nice, but DRKs get Guillo, a 4 hit WS, Spinslash (best way to end renkei with a lvl 3 light effect for huge dmg) and Cross Reaper (best way to end a renkei with a lvl 3 dark effect for huge dmg). This also makes the mages lives easyer because they can burst with any element.

What about the job abilities? DRK has Soul Eater, Arcane Circle(We don't care about that, lol) Weapon Bash(don't care about that either, heh) and last resort. War has Berserk, Defender(not really important in this case) Double attack, Provoke (again, not important here) and Warcry. However a WAR/SAM will also have the gain TP abilities, Heart Eye(not important here) and Silent Meditation. But the DRK/WAR has all the stuff a plain WAR has.

If you are going to compair WAR to DRK you have to compair them when they are being used in the same way. A DRK/THF is for hate control while a WAR/SAM is for pure damage. You have to compair a DRK/WAR to a WAR/SAM to be fair because they are both combos for high damage.

Normal attacks do matter, they add up over time, but they are not everything. Oh, and btw, were both you and the DRK your were compairing your self to the same level and were you both using food?

p.s. I think WAR is a great job also, but I thing your comparison was flawed, not flaming here, just trying to point out everything.

[bolaber]

yes, both using food. And i'm comparing myself to other drk/war's of the same level who also use food.

And thank you guys so much for the friendly comments. this board is so much better than gamefaqs.com.

Well yeah, guillotine deals more damage and so does cross reaper. But Gaxe/axe has rampage and raging rush for multi hit WS's. Don't forget, full break not only breaks everything, it can also do a lvl 3 skill chain. It has two elements, not just one.

I agree that drk/war can *probably* deal more damage than war/sam (assuming the drk/war wears all +str equip.. which i have NEVER seen) but when i do /sea all drk 70-75 on midgarsormr, all are always drk/thf. I never see a drk/war. (only once, but in his info.. he said that he has a fully lvled thief in JP)

Oh and.. when drk's get the hate from guillotine, they get hit a lot harder than when a war get's agro. If needed to, they can cancel berserk and use defender while the *real* tank tries to grab the agro back. Drk's seem to take more damage than war's when it comes to tanking. I dont have any proof for that yet, but.. just seen it with my own eyes.

and i can always use polearms if i want a multi hit ws that bad :-O.. after learning guillotine i dont find it that "godly" anymore. Penta thrust deals a lil less damage but gains more tp. The extra hit helps with double attack. Pretty cool i say.

*PS. i do agree that if drk/war wears the same equip as war/sam, drk/war will deal more damage. But with my statement about the accuracy equip idea, it might be a differnt story.

[Aeynrieus]

I like the WAR class. I like it a lot. But your argument is flawed. To say that WAR is just as good of a damage dealing class as DRK is an ignorant assertion. Since you have both a WAR job and a DRK job, you should know well that DRK's three passive attack bonuses on top of their two (three if subbing WAR) attack up job abilities put them well ahead in the damage department.

WARs are tanks. That's the sad truth of it. I think that WARs could make decent damage dealers, but only on the same level as a DRG or a SAM. If you were to outfit yourself with a bunch of +ATK, +STR gear, you could hit hard, sure, but you'll be tanking far too often to justify using that gear. All of your equipment should be focused on +DEF and +VIT, unless you're joining a PT w/ a PLD and you're wanted for Breaks or as a utility skillchainer.

Also, Shield Break has its limits. Against mobs that are strong against water, you're only going to get about thirty seconds out of it, which is approximately six swings with the axe. Including the TP from Shield Break, if you don't miss any swings, you'll build up 84% TP. But the fact is that you probably will miss at least once more, and those misses stack up. It's unlikely you'll be able to use it every battle. In addition, your party may not want you constantly spamming Shield Break. They may want you to participate in a skillchain, or to use Axe for Rampage, or some other weapon skill.

I think you're looking at this from too much of an idealistic perspective. In certain situations, WARs can be on par with DRKs, but it would take highly specialized equipment and tactics for a WAR to outmatch a DRK in damage. You're also fighting a mental uphill battle, as most people see WARs as second or third rate tanks. Unfortunately, most invites WARs receive are for tank positions that the party just couldn't fill with a PLD or a NIN. They're going to expect you to have defensive equipment, to use Defender and to be eating fish kabobs or boiled crab, not to start a rivalry with the damage dealers just to prove a point.

I see where you're coming from and wish that it could be that way, but the opportunities for WAR to be a damage dealer are few and far between. The game already has more melee classes than it needs.

WARs are 7/7. With equipment they can go 6/9 or 9/6, but PLD and DRK own their respective positions.

[Mithrael]

I think the biggest problem, though I have yet to party with a lv.60 war, is that you are equating your accuracy at lv.40 to your drk's accuracy at lv.60.

I for one now totally understand how much of a difference it makes as you progress to wear accuracy gear. At level 40, I missed so seldom that I barely noticed the difference my sniper ring brought (yes, as an elvaan DRK). Last night I definitely could tell... Fighting helm beetles I felt like a total gimp with 2 sniper rings, a lifebelt, and aiming bracelts (acc+26). Unfortunately, they were just too many levels ahead for me to be useful, I think.

Another thing you aren't considering outright is absorb-str :/ pulling 12-15 str most likely exceeds whatever str+ equip you are going to wear. So you can have both STR and accuracy.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing if your feelings are the same 20 levels from now.

BTW, the greataxes are very nice... they make me jealous. Almost the same damage per second (slightly less usually, but pretty small difference), but add STR+4 and other goodies. If I could get away with using my Gigant Axe in leveling parties right now, I would.

[bolaber]

Honestly i wasnt lvling war to lvl war. I was lvling war so i can sub it to my ranger, but as I leveled, i fell in love with the job. Now i'm thinking if i show lvl war? or rng? I already got drk to 61, i dont really feel like playing another job that revolves around the same thing to 60+ again. :confused:
I pretty much played everyjob now to lvl 30. Deciding to sell all my melee gear and start playing ranger until i have no gil. When that happens i might quit the game or go gil farm depending on how much i like the job. There are too many ignorant people who thinks they know everything its the people that ruin the game for me. (I tried being a bst, but got it to lvl 25 and stopped)

btw, fighting helm beetles.. you need dispel. With dispel they're pretty easy to hit Their rhino guard is so :mad: ing annoying.

[Mithrael]

Ranger owns us all

I've started leveling it for fun too. It's a blast. Hope it's more fun for ya.

I've heard a lot of people say that about war though. They start to level it to get their sub up to date, get it to lv.35 and start to love the job. Maybe if I ever get my war out of qufim, i'll start to love it too..................................

[bolaber]

Yeah.. especially when cannon shell + slug shot = 7~8k damage.

anyone know if sidewinder/slug shot if used with unlimited arrow.. will they still take 4 bullets/arrows? or none at all?

[Argonic]

Originally posted by bolaber
Well yeah, guillotine deals more damage and so does cross reaper. But Gaxe/axe has rampage and raging rush for multi hit WS's. Don't forget, full break not only breaks everything, it can also do a lvl 3 skill chain. It has two elements, not just one.

I don't think you are understanding correctly. The skill chains go like this:

Level 1:
Induration(ice)
Reverberation(water)
Compression(dark)
Scission(earth)
Liquefaction(fire)
Transfixion(light)
Detonation(wind)
Impaction(lightning)

Level 2:
Distortion(ice/water)
Gravitation(dark/earth)
Fusion(fire/light)
Fragmenation(wind/lightning)

Level 3:
Light(light/fire/wind/lightning)
Darkness(dark/water/ice/earth)

A DRK can do both of the level 3 renkei effects listed above. So mages can burst off of 4 elements with each of them. Level three renkei also do more damage than the level one or level two ones. And yes, WAR does have some multi-hit WSes, but they do not have any 4 hit ones with GAxe, also GAxe does a little less than scythe per hit.

I agree that drk/war can *probably* deal more damage than war/sam (assuming the drk/war wears all +str equip.. which i have NEVER seen) but when i do /sea all drk 70-75 on midgarsormr, all are always drk/thf. I never see a drk/war. (only once, but in his info.. he said that he has a fully lvled thief in JP)

Yes, this is because they sub thief for trick attack(hate control). But you must compair classes that are trying to do the same thing. That means compairing DRK/WAR(damage dealing) to WAR/SAM(damage dealing) or DRK/THF(hate control) to WAR/THF(hate control)

Oh and.. when drk's get the hate from guillotine, they get hit a lot harder than when a war get's agro. If needed to, they can cancel berserk and use defender while the *real* tank tries to grab the agro back. Drk's seem to take more damage than war's when it comes to tanking. I dont have any proof for that yet, but.. just seen it with my own eyes.

Well, it's very dependant on equipment, DRKs tend to wear alot of stuff that kills their def/vit. WAR if going offensive will also be wearing equipment that kills their def, but due to passive job traits(the DEF-UP one that WAR gets) and higher overall vit they should be taking less damage. Though if a DRK subs WAR they will get the DEF-UP one too. A DRK subing WAR can also use defender just like the WAR/SAM can, though they will still be taking more dmg from sub-par vit.

and i can always use polearms if i want a multi hit ws that bad :-O.. after learning guillotine i dont find it that "godly" anymore. Penta thrust deals a lil less damage but gains more tp. The extra hit helps with double attack. Pretty cool i say.

But you will not be able to use lances, the damage from penta with spears will be rather bad and with a B- in spear your accuracy and damage will be quite bad. The damage difference between a spear using WAR doing penta and a scythe using DRK using guillo will be quite high and the DRK will be much more accurate with Guillo due to the A+ raiting in scythe compaired to the B- raiting in spear that WAR gets. Lastly, a DRK going for pure damage will sub WAR, double attack can kick in for him on hus guillo too.

[Heatherr]

DRKs get 3 attack up traits while WARs get only one. Almost like DRKs being able to eat 2 mithkabobs at the same time compared to a WAR eating 1.

A WAR is unable to outdamage a DRK in the long run IMO.

[fuz]

I don't know if you've checked, but drk actually has a (marginaly) higher vit job bonus than war. Aside from a few shields, they both wear the same armor, so equipment def is not a factor. :p

The reasons why drk takes more damage in tanking compared to war is that parry and evade are low, with shield blocking skill completely unavailable. Also drk can only sub war for tanking, and war can sub mnk or nin for better tanking with active/passive skills since they don't have to worry about provoke.

[Shann_Phoenix]

War isn't superior ro pld, drk, drg simply because you can't really compare those class. Drg and drk are dmg dealer and pld is a tank. To compare you could say a war out damange pld and out tank drk/drg.

Beside checking hp/mp the stat calcutor proves nothing, those +2str are nothing at lvl 75 when you have over 300 att. Sub for the abilities you get not the stats.

War got those advantages over pld/drk/drg.
1. Accuracy : aggressor skill will boost your acc, as well as focus fomr mnk 25.
2. Weapon usage : most war will skillup 2-3 weapons, making it easy to select a optimal sc to use considering other weapons. also most dmg dealers (sam/drk/drg) will only have 1 weapon skilled up like scythe, spear or great katana.
3. Sub usage : as a war since you always got provoke/defender/berserk/double attack you can use many subs and make it worth it. Only 2 class can take full advantage of the sam sub in a xp party, war and thf. Others will just generate too much hate and get killed.

[Andorhall]

Between axe and great axe a war can close both level 3 renkeis also just wanted to point that out.

[specular]

Yeah, I really like the RDM comparison. You act depending on the situation. It's not entirely accurate, because RDM will be superior at casting and rather weak at melee. From what I read and hear, WAR can be a decent tank and a strong damage dealer later on. That's good if you like balance

I don't think WAR will be outhitting DRK in the future, but right now it's a close call though! I often see the mob face me, away from the PLD.



Oh hey, this is not a "RDM sucks" post, I lub ya, never leave home without one.