The mechanics of Provoke

[Izerezek]

I have a difficult time understanding why some people use and react to provoke the way they do. There is solid documentation out there that says how provoke works and how it should be used. I am posting this in the hopes that those who don't know how the skill works will learn while those that know how the skill works can add on their wisdom.

The other reason I am posting this is because I know that I have received scathing comments from certain people that disagree with the way I use provoke, which is the way it is recommended by anyone who has read enough hard data on it. I am not here to brag about my skill in game. I think I am mediocre in some ways, such as an understanding of magic, but I am well informed in others. I hope that this helps dispels misconceptions while bolstering understanding of what it is warriors and subbed warriors do.

Provoke accumulates hate towards the provoker equal to an unspecified amount of damage. While we don’t know the exact amount, we can estimate with some level of confidence where the hate generation. The higher the provokers Cha stat, the more agro accumulated by the provoke. The increase based on Cha is comparative to the amount of extra un-resisted damage generated by a high Int.

Provoke stacks much like damage does. Basically, a tank that chain provokes, aka not provoking only when the mob breaks, will generate a higher overall amount of agro. This seems to be a contested point among many tanks, but there is no need for it to be contested. It is proven. Many people are confusing provoke with Taunt from another MMORPG. Taunt in the other game gives the tank hate equal to the highest person on the agro list plus one. In this game, it is the equivalent of hitting with a large amount of damage at a fixed interval.

[frogurtx]

Most new Wars, even a good many Plds still don't understand this concept. They fail to realize that thier playing with other people, and not just with themselves.

I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated, but there are way too many tanks i've partied with while leveling my subs who become instantly defensive about the issue, and refuse to correct what they are doing.

They don't seem to understand that if i start drawng aggro with a cure1, I will draw it again with cure2, and since i'm getting pummeled, I can't heal the tank effectively since i'll be either dead, or i'll be interrupting whatever skillchain is going on.

:mad:

Btw, thanks to the good tanks out there, you know who you are

[imac2much]

Izerezek, you should probably make sure to validate your arguments before you become arrogant and mock others for not knowing how Provoke works.

Contrary to what you feel, the fact of the matter is: THERE IS NO SOLID DOCUMENTATION. Rather, there is a lot of facts and experience leading to a certain belief, but nothing is solid documentation. If people don't understand the nature of Provoke, it's not because they failed to read some section in the user's manual or something.

I am not saying you are a good or bad WAR. It's not exactly hard to know how to Provoke properly as a main tank..... just use it every 30 seconds. That's not exactly rocket science.

However, there is no way to know that CHR actually affects Provoke. Many people believe it does, and on JP BBS like 2ch they usually believe it does. I ran some tests myself but it was rather inconclusive.

On the other hand, you are incorrect in your assessment of how Provoke aggro works. It is general knowledge in JP communities that there are two types of aggro: job ability aggro ("spiked" aggro) and heal/damage aggro ("perpetual" aggro). Perpetual aggro stays with the player and only decreases as they get hit. Job ability aggro, on the other hand, provides a "spiked" increase of aggro when used, but diminishes over time by itself. This is why some new players believe you should only use provoke when the monster changes target, because that "spike" will usually turn the monster back to you. However, you are correct if you are using it every 30 seconds, because if you don't, the monster may turn for 1 second, hit you once, then turn back to the BLM or whatever.

So no, Provoke is not the same thing as hitting with a large amount of damage every 30 seconds. I'm not saying you or anyone else is doing their job poorly, this is just an FYI. Don't attack other people for not knowing exactly how Provoke works, because contrary to your belief there is no solid documentation. Usually you only learn as you keep playing or learn from other people.

[Blaze_33]

Okay II have been playing since the NA version came out so I am still learning as I go and taking as much advice into consideration.

Usually I am tanking in every party unless there is a second warrior or a pal or someone that can also be a main tank. The other day I was playing and I was the main tank. Though since I started to play this game I have also been pulling because I use Provoke to pull the Mob since I am going to be tanking.

Two players that I was with in the party told me that I should not been pulling since I loose hate on the way back to the party. First time that I have heard this. Now the puller was pulling the mob with voke also. It would be harder for me to get the mob off of him if he uses voke wouldn't it. Well so I stop pulling and concentrated on tanking well I had trouble voking it off him. And I was not keeping aggro like when I was pulling in the first place.

Well your thoughts are highly welcomed. And any ideas appreciated very much. Usually when I tank I voke the mob continuasly as soon as my voke is ready so it stays with me at all times as much as possible.

[Arclor]

THERE IS NO SOLID DOCUMENTATION. Rather, there is a lot of facts and experience leading to a certain belief

Could you provide a better demonstration of documentation? I don't have to run 100 tests and assemble a pie graph while watching the WHM get the crap beat out of him to prove that chain provoking is the way to go.

Every single party I have ever been in where the War chain provokes means I don't get aggro. Nor does the WHM when he heals, nor does the DRG who just jumped.

Do we honestly have to sit here and prove that it is not the same thing as a large damage being done to the monster? You can give it whatever name you want but the fact remains: Chain provoke = much better control of the monster.

[imac2much]

Uh yes it matters at higher levels. I don't know what level you are, but at lvl 55+ when all classes have several damaging WS and blm's get even more powerful spells, it gets a lot harder to hold hate. Chain provoking won't do jack. I guess as a PLD this understanding of the difference of spike and perpetual hate is more important because we have 3 job abilities that have 5 minute recast for hate (rampart, shield bash, sentinel). So you need to know not to use all 3 and provoke at the very beginning of the battle... by the time the battle is almost over, the ramp, SB and sent hate is gone, and if someone sidewinders, guillotines, etc, you'll lose hate.

Just because you think you know everything there is to know about holding hate, don't attack others for trying to understand it better. Because the truth is at higher levels you really need to know how to keep hate better... Provoke every 30 seconds won't help at all. If all any main tank did at high levels was provoke, they'd lose aggro so often it wouldn't be funny.

[Blaze_33]

Provoke every 30 seconds won't help at all. If all any main tank did at high levels

I agree with this coment because it has happened to me before while tanking trying to keep aggro and then the mages casting like cure II or Cure III even when I was voking as soon as Voke was ready.
I usually am good about keeping aggro but when you have four mages including the DRK as a mage It is hell trying to keep aggro unless you are a paladin and can cast cure II in between vokes or higher spells just to keep that hate up there.

[xaishi]

Provoke - analyzed

http://ffxi.cogn.net/forums/showthre...threadid=26219

Great thread full of great opinions; read it with an open mind. Extreme, althou he comes across a bit harsh, has alot of intelligence behind what he's trying to explain.

- Grawr

[Izerezek]

As I said imac, I think I am a mediocre player, and I have not yet seen the higher eschelons of play. The documentation I speak of comes from multiple guild and private forums that I frequent to try to get a better understanding of the game.

I never meant for my commentary to come off as an attack, and if it did, than I failed in appropriately expressing myself. The truth of the matter is that I am learning, as can everyone who plays. I know that there are infinite amounts of information out there, and I appreciate that you are willing to share your information with us.

The crux of my commentary is that I think deep down there are good ways to play FFXI, and better ways. Anyone who tries is doing good, but those who aim to excel, like those coming here to learn are playing better. I don't know about everyone else, but I want to be better.

[Arclor]

Uh yes it matters at higher levels. I don't know what level you are, but at lvl 55+ when all classes have several damaging WS and blm's get even more powerful spells, it gets a lot harder to hold hate. Chain provoking won't do jack.

At no point in this thread did anyone talk about the 55+ level game. We are talking solely about how provoking as soon as you can is a better choice then waiting until another party member gets aggro. Those are your only 2 choices as a war.

[imac2much]

Izerek, I didn't mean to attack you, I just wanted to let you know Provoke works differently than you think. Yes, provoking every 30 seconds is still better than any other alternative. But at later levels, you'll see the need to know that there is a difference between spike and perpetual, since you have to be very careful 10 seconds - 29 seconds after every Provoke when that spike is going down.

Originally posted by Arclor


At no point in this thread did anyone talk about the 55+ level game. We are talking solely about how provoking as soon as you can is a better choice then waiting until another party member gets aggro. Those are your only 2 choices as a war.

Sorry to burst your bubble tough guy, but this thread is about the mechanics of Provoke. After I listed what the actual mechanics of Provoke are, you countered by saying "blah blah It doesn't matter I hold hate fine." I don't care if you think the whole point of this thread is to boost your ego, but I am just listing what the general idea of how Provoke works is.

I don't even see why you are attacking this simple concept. Is it just because it's something you didn't know? It's not like I'm mocking people for not knowing this, I just want people to know what it's like... that's right, I'm trying to help. And yet you get angry because I post about something you didn't know apparently.

Nowhere in this thread does it say "mechanics of provoke from levels 1-30." It's important to know how aggro is handled throughout the game, it just gets more important when you're higher level. If you don't care, that's fine, it doesn't hurt me any. But don't get upset just because I list it how it is.

[Arclor]

Sorry to burst your bubble tough guy

You aren't bursting my bubble at all. At what point did this thread become personal? You don't have to come in here and call me names. I never claimed to have any of the answers - only that I thought that chain provoking is the way to go from my experiences.

Your entire post you act as if I am arguing with you when we are both arguing the same fucking side. It is better to provoke when able then to wait. You have said this many times. That is all I was ever trying to say.

Read my posts again - all I ever claimed was that chain provoking was a better choice, yet you flame me for no reason at all. When I responded to your other thread, all I was saying is that adding all the high level 55+ PLD abilites doesn't change the basic fact that it is better to chain provoke underneath it all.

I never claimed that I knew everything about holding hate.
I never claimed you could hold aggro with provoke alone.
I never claimed that your addition of the spike/perpetual aggro ideas was not correct, just that from my experience it is better to chain provoke regardless of how it exactly works.

The ONLY thing I have ever claimed was that it is better to provoke when you are able then to wait for the monster to break - which you agree with me on!

Don't attack other people for not knowing exactly how Provoke works, because contrary to your belief there is no solid documentation.

The fact of the matter is you don't have any "solid documentation" either and maybe you should follow your own fucking advice.

[imac2much]

Arclor, you're a very angry individual. You need to calm down. Ever since you came into this thread, you have been belittling my posts for no good reason, when I am just trying to help. Reread all your posts here... what have you said that's constructive?

That's right, nothing. All you do in your posts is:
1) attack my post that there is no solid documentation, because you feel it's unnecessary.
2) say provoking every 30 sec is good (which everyone has already said by the way).
3) try to make me look bad by saying my posts have no merit in this thread.

So instead of trying to take it personal and getting all angry and pissy, reevaluate your reasons for posting. Are you just posting to attack someone for no reason? Because that sure looks like it from your first 2 posts. And then you get all angry again because I call you a tough guy? Sounds like a convenient double standard to me. Chill and lie down, or something.

I did follow my so-called "fucking advice", because at no point did I attack anyone for not knowing the most accepted mechanics of aggro control. You're right, I don't have any solid documentation either, and I said as much. But at no point did I call the thread starter an idiot or anything like that, I didn't attack anyone, until you showed up in this thread spewing your unnecessary spite. I admit this one post doesn't have anything constructive in it, but I'm just responding to your pointless allegations. I hope your next post has something constructive in it, instead of useless flames as usual.

[Izerezek]

Epilogue

at no point did I call the thread starter an idiot or anything like that,

Izerezek, you should probably make sure to validate your arguments before you become arrogant and mock others for not knowing how Provoke works.

I think that needed to be brought up because as I read these posts, I notice numerous contradictions from you, imac. I am telling you this so that you can see where Arclor is coming from because his train of thought is valid.

Please do not take this to be slam at you. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have brought some interesting new information to light that I hope to share in future posts.

THERE IS NO SOLID DOCUMENTATION. Rather, there is a lot of facts and experience leading to a certain belief, but nothing is solid documentation.

If you misunderstood what I meant by solid documentation, then I apologize. I find that recorded experiences and facts are synonomous with documentation. I think that you are confusing hard data with documentation. If you think that testing is the next step to understanding my original statement, I agree with you. I have begun testing the two seperate types of agro you yourself mentioned, and I hope to post my findings soon.

Chain provoke = much better control of the monster.

Arclor was the first person to bring this fact up. Everyone else who responded tried to say the same without putting their themselves out in the open for criticism. You were very quick to go on the defensive after this was stated when all you needed to say was that you either agreed or disagreed. Any additional information would have been examined thoroughly later on.

On the other hand, you are incorrect in your assessment of how Provoke aggro works.

I believe that, considering the evidence presented after this statement, you should have rephrased. If spike agro deteiorates over time but still leaves even a 1% increase of agro on the provoker, then half of my definition of Provoke agro is correct, specifically:

Provoke stacks

Whether it stacks like damage is now the remaining question.

As I said, please don't take this as an attack. You have been to places in Vana'diel I have only heard of, so I know that you bring valuable insight to this forum. I just see contradictions that would throw even the most intent and well-learned player for a loop.

[imac2much]

It's true that I thought you were arrogant in your original post. I didn't really mean it as a direct insult, but rather, don't be so quick to look down on people who don't provoke well when it seemed that you had some misinformation as well.

However, reading back on my posts, I think I suffer from the same arrogance, and I must apologize. I didn't mean my first response to be an insult to you, but I can see how it can be misconstrued.

Plus, I did mention chaining Provoke:

It's not exactly hard to know how to Provoke properly as a main tank..... just use it every 30 seconds.

But I wanted to show you why exactly some people get the misconception that it might be better to wait until the monster turns. The fact is... let's say you provoke every 30 seconds, and halfway through the fight, 15 seconds after you used a Provoke, the BLM lets off a powerful spell. Now the monster starts wailing on the BLM and you can't do anything for 15 seconds. But then someone else uses Provoke 5 seconds after the monster turns... and grabs the aggro back. It's not because he has a higher overall aggro rating, but it's because that spike of hate that Provoke gave him was more than the BLM had, until you can provoke again.

I do believe Provoke stacks, especially with higher CHR, but this is extremely hard to prove. But this has happened several times:

1) I am building hate normally like any good PLD. The DRKs and MNKs and other DD's are doing terrific damage, more than what I am healing myself for and doing damage for myself.
2) At the beginning of the fight, the MNK uses Howling Fist or something so THF can use Sneak+Trick+Dancing Edge behind me. The monster successfully turns to the MNK, then back to me after the THF uses WS.
3) If this was done near the end of the fight, Howling Fist wouldn't be enough to turn the monster. He would also have to Provoke. And even THEN many times the monster won't turn, so the THF has to fuidama Dancing on the MNK (after which the monster would probably turn if the MNK provoked, but I would be able to get aggro back fast).

This makes me believe that Provoke does indeed stack, even though it also diminishes over time. Dunno if this helps anyone, but this is just my experience.