Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

[TBoTB]

I making this topic in response to the many arguments of Party correct vs "Gimped" subs. Accordingly im asking those who would like to perticapate in making suitable guide This fourms Job to post the PROS and CONS of EACH sub weither it be an appropiate sub or a non appropiate sub. Also please indcate which subs you would recommend for pting, perhaps in its own section in your post. If you would like to contribute more besides the job of this fourm please visit the other job fourms. after considerable information is recorded i will begin to make a guide for the site. Credit will go to the Users of FFXIO * taking down each name of a contributer would be tedius and in-effecient but i will work out an appropiate credting title*

The job guide would be added to ffxio database and added to the main page.

[Shann_Phoenix]

Well i'll start then

Most of these pro/con will take into consideration that the group is going for xp, not farming, having fun , skillup/mission/quest groups.

party correct subs

monk
This sub will offer the highest max hp, as well as a vit boost making it one of the best sub for a tanking warrior. Boost ability is a plus to generate more hate.
Utility
1-30 probably the best sub
30-50 very good sub for tanking war
50-60 aggressor/focus combo allows you to always have a accuracy buff up
60+ ok sub, but nin or sam will be more usefull.

Thief
Thied sub will over a dex/agi boost and a evade boost, making it a good sub for backup tank and dmg dealer role of a war
Utility
1-30 monk is overrall better, but thf is chosen by players that don't want to level monk cause they will be selecting a advanced job at 30 and they level thf to 15 for farming purpose.

30-50 Sneak attack + ws can deal really good dmg, especially combined with multi hit ws like double thrust, sturmwind, raging axe and fast blade. Good sub for dmg dealer war.

50-60 still usefull, but i would consider mnk for focus or ninja sub as well.
60+ The sneak/trick combo might be usefull in some situation but more than often a drk/thf will pick that role allowing a sneak/trick guillo on war followed with a raging rush for fragmentation sc or to close lvl 3 renkei.

Ninja
1-24 Not a usefull sub, since you can't blink tank
24-50 Another good sub for tanking war with blink tanking. Dual wielding can also help your dmg output but you should consider using a 2h weap even if nin to help your group with break ws.

50-74 You get dual wield 2, making using 2 1h weap more usefull, still good for blink tanking.
74+ You gain 2nd blink spell making war/nin one of the best tank in game since you can both deal dmg and avoid it.

Samurai
1-60 Not a very usefull sub, tp store will give a few more tp per hit, but more than often war will use breaker and go solo ws. Other subs will offer more, but third eye ability is nice to have since you can dodge a melee attack every minute. Timed right, you might be able to avoid ennemies physical ws.

60+ Meditate will allow you to spam ws much more often, so you can use a breaker at fight start and still sc during it. Probably one of the best sub for dmg dealer/utility war.

Passable subs
Whm/rdm
Whm/rdm subs are used for thier healing abilities and as downtime reducer when solo. Most players will have whm or rdm leveled to 25 for sneak/invisible to help with travelling and questiing into dangerous area. Subbing a mage will give you very little mp as a war still.

1-30 A lot of players use those from level 1 to 30 to help healing a bit. Common among wanna-be paladin.
30+ i wouldn't recommend to use this sub for grouping unless your group does not have a 2nd healer. I subbed whm in post 30 groups to help the whm a bit and played wanna-be pld.

Dark Knight
Drk is best suited as a main job usually.

20-30 You gain the drk attack bonus 10 level sooner and the few mp you get can be usefull for pulling. You can also turn those mp into more hp with a physical earing.
30-60 No utility. Use something else. Last resort can act like a ghetto provoke.
60+ if you want souleater ability, it's ok but souleater is weaker when subbed. Ratio is 5% instead of 10% drk gets.

Dragoon
Drk is best suited as a main job usually. You can't summon the wyvern one of the main drg advantage.

20-30 You gain the drg attack bonus 10 level sooner. Jump can be usefull for pulling and grant you a extra attack every 90sec that return some tp.
30+ No real adavantage over other subs

Beastmaster
1-30 Haven't seen anyone with bst subbed, unless for widescan abilty.
30+ THe killer effect passive bst gain could be usefull as a war if you're fighting mobs affected by those. Also mob can be "intimidated" by war presence acting like paralyzed for a turn. Can be usefull sometimes.

Gimped sub

Blm
38+ If you see blm subbed for a war, it's only for warp. Good if you're traveling with your lfg flag up since you can warp yourself to your home point and sometimes join your group quicker that way.

Summoner
I don't see how this sub can help a war.

Paladin
War and pld 1st defense bonus won't stack, so you gain very little by subbing pld, you don't get that much mp either. If you're really desperate for healing, you better off with whm or rdm sub, unless you haven't leveled those.

Bard
Usually a bad sub, so unless your group ask you, choose something else, unless you want paeon to reduce downtime below lvl 15-20.

Ranger
Beside for wide scan not very usefull. You gain access to bow type ws which can be good, but war got a low rating in bows thus your ws will have a huge miss rate.

This cover the subs for xp parties.

Situation subs
If you're going to face a mob with special abilities or a large number of a single mob, for a drop or a purpose like bcnm or getting genkai 1 items. You can consider other subs.

Examples
Pld sub would be good for facing lots of undead ennemies, shield bash can be used to stop spells or dangerous specials like gobs bomb toss or bomb explosion.
Drk sub might come handy when facing bomb type monster since those are considered arcana and weapon bash can stop thier deadly explosion attack.

A well timed stun can also stop mobs from casting ancient magics, but those can also be avoided with ninja blink.


Guess this cover all subs. Feel free to correct me on any info posted here.

[Asmandeus]

Nice Post!

Only a few things I can add/change in that great post.

1) Sturmwind doesn't stack with sneak (it does elemental damage). This partially the reason I'm in love with Spinning Axe right now, it's my most damaging Axe/Greataxe weapon skill. On average it does more damage than sturmwind hits for (especially when stacked in a sneak attack).

2) Does Jump actually give you TP? I was under the impression that it doesn't.

3) Shield/weapon bash are cool vs bombs and nasty spells, but instead of subbing a slightly gimped job you could always just use Smash Axe for the stun. Example for this would be the Explosure (level 55 cap) mob. We would just build some tp on Bats nearby then fight one. The Explosure would start to go critical and I'd just stun it with Smash Axe.


Edit:

1) When I hit 15 with my thf sub I spent some timing messing with all my weaponskills and sneak (and macros!). I could never see a difference in damage with sturmwind or keen edge, so I assumed they both fell into the not-stacking-with-sneak-attack-bucket. Oh well.

2) Sweet.

3) Another problem I have with these timed abilities is that they are ... timed. Weapon/shield bash is like 5mins recast. TP is very fast to build up. But hey this is my opinion.

[Shann_Phoenix]

Sturmwind does stack with sneak because it's a physical ws, since it returns tp and it's a 2hit ws. Rule of thumb, if your ws return tp and can miss, you can stack it with sneak attack. I think all axe ws are physical so you can stack most of them with sneak, with the possible exception of keen edge. I heard that using a more tp = more crit chance ws with sneak don't add any dmg but only means your ws will not miss.

Best proof that sturmwind is physical ws and not elemental, you ever used right right after a crawler used caccoon. In that situation i could lose from 80 to 150 dmg for my ws and both hit connected since it was stacked with sneak attack. A elemental ws ignore defense and does dmg depending on resistance to the related element, example use shadow of death on bats and notice how low dmg it does.

I don't have spinning axe yet so i don't know how this ws works yet.

Jump does return tp, look in the dragoon forums and they say it does. Also confirmed many times with group members. Jump is valued as a good method to get extra tp for a penta spamming drg.

smash axe ws stun will also work to stop nasty attacks/spells, but sometimes i prefer to have a timer related stun rather than a tp dependant one. Since it's a sub for a specific situation, i guess the choice is up to the player.

[sharlngan]

nope sturmwind is elemental

[imstimpy]

As of level 58, I do not have a single elemental weapon skill from either axe or great axe. It all stacks with sneak attack although some situations may only arise in sub-optimal party situations.

[Cyclonus]

Whatever happened to a player picking whatever they enjoy playing, if they enjoy being a thf/whm, then for the love of god let them be that, and say not a single negative thing to them.

[Nameless]

Originally posted by Cyclonus
Whatever happened to a player picking whatever they enjoy playing, if they enjoy being a thf/whm, then for the love of god let them be that, and say not a single negative thing to them.

Because this is a thread about the BEST sub for parties and all other situations.

/WHM is not the BEST sub for THFs in a party. But, it's great for coffer rape.

Can you read at all?

[Frozen Flame]

Sturmwind

Sturmwind *may* be an elemental ws, but that wont explain that when I use sneak attack the damage increases a lot more @_@ in the jungle sturmwind 100 tp did 60-80 dmg, with sneak attack 150-225. there is some secret behind this O.o

[Armando]

Whatever happened to a player picking whatever they enjoy playing, if they enjoy being a thf/whm, then for the love of god let them be that, and say not a single negative thing to them.

That player has all the right in the world to play THF/WHM....solo. However, when in an exp party, it's selfish to be gimp, as this hurts the whole party. In a party setup, every player should strive to be at their very best possible.

If you want to play WAR/WHM, or WAR/DRG, or WAR/DRK, and equip any other weapon that isn't an axe, by all means, go ahead; just don't do it when you'll be jeopardizing other people.

Sturmwind IS a physical WS. It's a well-known fact that Sturmwind hurts like hell when stacked with Sneak Attack. Sturmwind's damage increases when I use Berserk/Boost, eat Meat Mithkabob, and/or the enemy's defense is reduced, and its damage decreases when I use Defender and/or the mob's defense increases. Double Attack can go off with Sturmwind as well. Also, Sturmwind can miss altogether, I'm not 100% certain if but I remember correctly magical WS can't miss. Just because it's called Sturmwind and the animation shows a twister doesn't mean it's a wind-based WS. If you look at its icon you'll see it's gray, not green.

Also, I think before Dual Weild II WAR/NIN would be better off with a Great Axe. And RNG isn't gimped from 20-30, it gives Accuracy +10, with a Great Axe it's the best combo available at those 10 levels for damage-dealing, and it probably works well while tanking. With high archery and enough gear for +Ranged Accuracy, it might be viable for a few levels after 30 while tanking, and you could use it to open Distortion with Piercing Arrow. Haven't tried it, but it doesn't look too bad. After 40 it'd probably stop working though.

[Avalanche]

Re: Nice Post!

Originally posted by Asmandeus
1) Sturmwind doesn't stack with sneak (it does elemental damage)

Are you retarded?
I seriously doubt your WAR is that high if you still believe this. Sturmwind is THE WS of choice when subbing THF, at least before Raging Rush.

Statements like this from a fellow Warrior really hurts me to see, and people like you should go back to just using Warrior as a subjob, because if you really are lv61, you have no idea how to play your job.

[Dragonhope]

Originally posted by sharlngan
nope sturmwind is elemental

/slap

Stop making people think you're a nubblet >.>

Edit: Yes I know it's a late response.

[UnnamedGalka]

It is possible to make a rebuttal without being rude, you know.

[Swordmaster8717]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

I'd really hate to bring this up almost 10 months later, but... Armando you talk about the gimp being selfish... i'd rather have my party have fun than be forced to equip something they dont like simply because you dont want to take a few extra seconds to defeat a monster or something stupid like that

[Gajari]

Re: Party vs All Other Sub Discussion.

<< And a few more months go by... >>

I agree. I just came back to the game and would like to be able to play whatever I want, but from what I can tell, people are going to be assholes if I don't choose a specific main/sub combination that every other person takes.

Reminds me why I left to begin with.