War/Mnk > Pld/War ?

[Negorath]

Paladin armor lvl 30+ surpases the armor the Warrior get's, including the Warrior's raw defence.

[imac2much]

Eh? All the good armor level 30-50 that a PLD can wear, a WAR can wear as well. Be it Centurion, Silver armor, Iron Musketeer, Plate armor... I believe PLD, WAR, and even DRK can wear all those. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In addition to that, although we (PLD) have *one* more DEF UP trait than WAR (WAR's DEF UP I and PLD's DEF UP I don't stack), they can get more defense with Defender for 3 minutes every 5 minutes. I think that is what he is referring to.

PLD is still the better tank from 30-50, mainly for their ability to hold aggro (this point has been stated several times). Lvl 30+ is when the damage dealers of the game (BLM of course, but now also RNG, SAM, DRK, DRG) come into a place of their own and dish out painful WS's and such... It'll be rather hard to hold all that aggro with only a Provoke every 30 seconds.

[Negorath]

Ahh ok, I have been missinformed then, my bad.

[Icemage]

The only armor that a PLD gets better equipment for than a WAR does is his shield. There are a number of shields that PLD can use that WAR cannot which have a 1 or 2 more Defense and a couple of stat boosts. It's not very significant though.

As noted though, the ability to cast Cures to hold aggro (as well as all of the other PLD hate-gathering effects) make PLD a more effective tank than WAR/MNK starting at around level 30.


Icemage

[Kagi]

My observations:

1. Pld parry/block abilities are FAR, FAR greater than a war's.
2. Post 30, plds get Cure3. A well-timed cure3 pulls hates off an insane drk with full buffs.
3. #1 drk swings scythe and gets hit for painful damage. Warrior provokes. #2 drk swings scythe and gets hit for painful damage. Warrior still has no provoke.
4. Invincible > Benediction ====> pld/war > war/mnk

http://galeos.nu/heartflight/Dec2003/ouch.jpg
Freak accident, Icemage. The spider was on steroids.

[Lewkowski]

Drk swings... hate stays on me. lol

I provoke to pull monster chasing me. I get back if 30 seconds have passed I pop another provoke, if not I start attacing. Wham 70 damage (level 38) with great axe. Boost, wham attack again then provoke. With two provokes and doing almost as much damage as the drk the monster is solidly on me. After the end of the fight I pull another and immediatly start with shield break at the start creating hate and making it super easy to hit. If I lose aggro I can always smack the war cry key and the monster goes back.

The thing is that warrior out damages paladin.. this means that the hate will stay on me easier.

As far as parry and block with shield... I've never had those maxed, and I've tanked from 10-30+ with warrior. Having a higher cap doesn't really mean anything until you reach it.

Warriors and paladin do wear the same armor up until 50(expect for shields). Post 50... well guess what Warrior armor provides MORE hate then paladin armor does.

Personally I think the PLD and the WAR both make good tanks. The paladin deals less damage but can handle more. The warrior does more damage but can take a little less. They come out kind of even in tanking IMO. (Post 50) Before that I see little reason to choose Pal/War over War/Mnk.

[imac2much]

I'm not high level to confirm this, but I've talked to my LS members who are up there... and they say there's no way you can hold aggro from sidewinders, pentathrusts, guillotines, ancient magic, and cure IV's with just a provoke every 30 seconds.

I still believe WAR makes a good tank up to the mid levels, but then he just won't cut it as a tank.... it'll just be too hard to keep aggro.

Also, try something even at your level. Can you really hold aggro from a DRK who puts on Last Resort and Souleater then uses a WS (even if it's not Guillotine)? You might be able to for a while but then he keeps swinging... there's no way you're going to match that damage with a WAR.

[Not.Bad]

Why just use one or the other? =D. After December 16th patch, two Tanks are advised for parties.

Get the best of both worlds >D.

Don't underestimate Breaks or the ability of cure 2-3 generating hate.

[Lewkowski]

/boggle

Your saying its impossible to hold aggro with all those high damage classes.

I guess that 1/6 of the high level players = PLD then?

A warrior generates MORE hate then a paladin do to the INSANE amount of damage in comparison to the PLD's crap damage. I think it almost DOUBLES eventually. On top of that the Warriors armor passively GENERATES more hate then PLD AF armor.

[Not.Bad]

Originally posted by Lewkowski
/boggle

Your saying its impossible to hold aggro with all those high damage classes.

I guess that 1/6 of the high level players = PLD then?

A warrior generates MORE hate then a paladin do to the INSANE amount of damage in comparison to the PLD's crap damage. I think it almost DOUBLES eventually. On top of that the Warriors armor passively GENERATES more hate then PLD AF armor.

You have to consider Cure's into the equation. Provoke + Swings + Cure 2 or 3 will generate substantial ammounts of hate probably far more then a Warrior can generate with Provoke and Swings alone. The negative is you are then MP dependant, so have to watch down time.

If we talk higher levels, most parties will have a RDM or Bard around for unlimited mana though, and don't forget FOOD. So down time is not as big as people think. In fact a Paladin properly equipped won't need to rest at all, especially if the PT selection is done right.

Like I said above, just get the best of both worlds Each have their plusses and negatives.

Maybe with AF armor, War can hold hate better. But nothing compares to a Cure III + Provoke to peel something off a Target period.

I am not biased ither =P. I am all for people raising Warriors past 30, as they do make damn good tanks, and breaks from what i've read are just so damn useful.

[imac2much]

Originally posted by Lewkowski
/boggle

Your saying its impossible to hold aggro with all those high damage classes.

I guess that 1/6 of the high level players = PLD then?

A warrior generates MORE hate then a paladin do to the INSANE amount of damage in comparison to the PLD's crap damage. I think it almost DOUBLES eventually. On top of that the Warriors armor passively GENERATES more hate then PLD AF armor.

Holy cow, this argument is so fundamentally flawed, I don't know where to begin, but I'll try.

First of all, just because a certain class is the most sought after doesn't make it automatically very "popular" itself. From what people have told me at higher-end game, almost every party wants a BRD for more efficient leveling. Does this mean that 1/6 of the high level players are BRD? NO.

Next, I'll speak from personal experience: there is no way a WAR can hold aggro from a DRK using lastresort+souleater+strong WS and then some extra hits. What is he going to do to get the hate back once he provokes? Eventually the DRK will get the hate back on him. Or when a BLM MBs with a very strong spell (just yesterday a BLM MBed distortion (powerslash->viperblade) with Blizzaga for like 300 dmg or something)... how is the WAR going to get hate back after provoke is up?

PLD can Cure III, Shield Bash, Sentinel, or 2hr if all else fails. Also if he saw it coming he can smartly use cover. The WAR is just going to flail away helplessly and hope somehow his DPS is going to rival a DRK with Last Resort+ souleater or a BLM spamming nukes. All this while the WHM will be busy healing the low-defense teammates and get hate on himself as well.

This is all from personal experience at the mid-end game, because I have not experienced high end (like 50+) myself. For that I can only ask my LS members for their experience.

For the AF argument, I cannot state from experience. On the other hand, if you want to factor in the high end equipment, your argument that "PLD don't take much less damage than a WAR" is totally wrong. From what I hear, PLDs take far less damage than other classes, and as the levels go up, the difference becomes even more noticeable. Then you also say that WAR will get hit less than PLD.. however, I am assuming your WAR is using a 2hA (because you say they just do SOO much more damage than a PLD), so you will lack the shields that PLDs have. If your WAR is using 1HA+Shield, there's no way you're doing SOOO much more damage than a PLD, so that argument would be moot. You would also lack the main reason why high level teams want WAR: Shield Break, Armor Break, Weapon Break, and Full Break.

I seriously would like to see you hold aggro from a nuke-happy BLM, sidewinder RNG, LS+SE+Guillotine DRK, Penta-spamming DRG or SAM with just provoke. This would be a hard task for a PLD also, but would be nigh impossible for a WAR/MNK.

[rexaflex]

You said you wanted higher lvls to tell you - but you don't listen all you do is say "no you are wrong this is how it is" so basically posting on this thread is useless as you only see what you want to see

btw imac2much

[Icemage]

There is no comparison between PLD and WAR's hate-gathering ability post-level 20, much less at high levels.

WAR AF *does* have *slightly* higher +Enmity than PLD... but not by much. Consider:

You get the bonus every time you do something that generates hate. That's true whether you hit for 1 damage, for 1000.

So the warrior is (as you say) using his awesome 2-handed Great Axe which swings once every century, while the PLD is swinging a 1-handed sword at twice the speed for less damage. But he's getting twice the Enmity bonus. Hmmm..

Now let's talk abilities.

Since virtually all PLD sub /WAR, Provoke cancels out on both sides.

PLD gets Shield Bash, Sentinel, and Cover. WAR gets... nothing.

WAR gets Warcry. Ok, pretty cool (though PLD/WAR will get this too at level 70).

Maybe if WAR subbed MNK and used Boost, Focus, Dodge you could get some extra hate that way (but since all of these reset your attack timer...gee, where's your damage to get hate?).

In the mean time, PLD is holding aggro by taking damage, then Curing it off himself (getting his Enmity bonus with every spell).

If you really want to know who holds hate better, go ask in the Ranger forum - I guarantee every single high level ranger will tell you that the only tank that can pull hate away from them when they Sidewinder is.... drumroll and the envelope please...

...PLD/WAR.


Icemage

[nuvas]

Originally posted by Lewkowski
/boggle

Your saying its impossible to hold aggro with all those high damage classes.

I guess that 1/6 of the high level players = PLD then?

A warrior generates MORE hate then a paladin do to the INSANE amount of damage in comparison to the PLD's crap damage. I think it almost DOUBLES eventually. On top of that the Warriors armor passively GENERATES more hate then PLD AF armor.

Reposting the arguement I posted on your thread in the PLD section since we scared you off or something.

"Are you playing the same game I'm playing? How are you not understanding that a Paladin generates more hate than a Warrior all the time? Do you honestly think a Warrior can compete with Cure 3s for hate? If damage were the only thing you needed to get hate, the monster would be stuck on Darkknights, Rangers, and Blackmages ALL the time. We all know Shield Break is "teh win" and so is Armor Break, but a Warrior that's tanking to his maximum efficiency would be using a sword and shield, that was my point. You're living in a sad sad dream world if you think Paladins only "probably" take better damage than Warriors. Warriors are wonderful classes as I said in my post, but like I also said, Paladins were MADE for what we're doing."

Thats what I posted on PLD boards, verbatim. *taps the mic* Hello? Is this thing on? Look around to your fellow Warriors, they'll all agree they can do the job when they have to, but not many I bet will argue about who does it better.

Elidrin
50 Paladin/Warrior
Midgardsormr

[Rudo]

The bottom line is that PLDs are better tanks, but WARs get the job done well enough while adding more dmg dealing power to the PT. I've been main tank for my set PT all the way to 56 and I haven't had much trouble keeping hate. And that's just with provoke, warcry and the dmg I deal(always eating Meat Kabobs). We had a THF on the set PT up to the mid 40s but he stopped playing and I thought I was screwed without him planting hate on me but that wasn't the case. Sure I lost hate every now and then but after the next provoke or warcry the monster was back on me. Only thing I can't do anything about it is with benediction. Now we found another THF for our set PT so hate control should be way easy once again.

That's all I have to say about this stupid topic. Fighting over who is a better tank leads nowhere, all you need to know is that both get the job done in regular exp PTs. Oh yeah, and good THFs are a tanks best friend.