War/Mnk > Pld/War ?

[Lewkowski]

Newbie here but so far from my expeirence I tank better then a paladin of equal level!

Heres what I see the case bieng -

DOING DAMAGE -

No question really Warrior does more damage, the more damage that is dealt the LESS the warrior takes. This means if a warriors added damage can kill the monster 10% faster, then even if the warrior takes 10% more damage then a pld they are equal.

RECIEVING DAMAGE -

This is broken up into two catagories -

Does the attack hit -
Warrior wins again vs. a PLD. A warrior will have Counter Attack and Dodge. These two abilities allow the warrior to be hit a lot less then a PLD.

Once hit the amount of damage -
PLD will win this on. But how much? Consider the fact that we are fighting IT monsters in all cases... theres a range where hits are taken that will do full damage regardless of armor. When these hits from a monster happen the Defense of a PLD isn't any more important then a BLMs. So while I'm a 100% positive once a hit is struck a PLD will take less damage... it is not that much.

HATE CONTROL

The warrior wins this one easily. They have War Cry which is just as good as provoke and do waaaaaaay more damage with a PLD. This means that the monster will not turn on the blm/drk/rng as easily. This is a very important ability because of the drk gets hit... whats the point of having a tank? Wasted mana from WHM. Furthermore while the Paladin CAN cast heal spells they can't attack while healing. Which means while they do get a hate bump its not nearly as much as people seem to think it is. And finnaly using war/mnk special abilities also creates hate. With a warrior you don't NEED a Theif in the group.

SPELLS/WEAPONSKILLS

Warrior has no spells, the PLD wins out. But many of the PLD spells server no point. Protections? You got a WHM. Status curing? WHM again, healing? Well theres something useful. BUT if the pld is casting heal spells then it will have to sit down eventually unless theres a BRD or a RDM! MEans slower pulls and less SKill chains. So now for a PLD to be effective you need not only a THF but a RDM/BRD!

As far as weapon skills it seems like the Warrior defense reduction attacks seem to be the winner here.

CONCLUSION -

A warrior/mnk is more efficent then a PAL/MNK beacuse it does more damage, controls the hate, and has party benifical spells. IT tanks a LITTLE less well then a PLD but not that much. Because while the PLD will be able to soak up more damage, the WAR/MNK is hit less often.

And finnaly a WAR/MNK has more HP then a PAL/WAR giving the healer a bit of added flexabilty when it comes to healing.

This is not to say the PAL/WAR is useless, vs tough NM fights I imagine a PAL/WAR would be awsome because of their amazing 2 hour ability. I think invincible is the best 2 hour in the game personally. And if you do have a THF and a mana regener of some sort I think the PAL/WAR can compete.

This is taken form a level 37 wars experience, but from my stand point it looks like War/Mnk tanks just as well if not better then a PLD.

[Pilsbane]

A sub-30 Warrior will tank better than a Paladin of equal levels because Paladins don't get any more defense than a Warrior until level 30. The innate defensive bonuses from Warrior and Paladin do not stack. To add insult to injury for the Paladin, Warriors get defender at 25 while a PLD/WAR has to wait until level 50 for it. Paladins get Sentinel at 30, but it doesn't even last a minute. So, if you are comparing a level 25 WAR/MNK with a 25 PLD/WAR the Warrior will take hits much better, I'll give you that.

What the Paladin gets to counteract that is heals. A 25 Paladin can do about 5 cure2's on a full MP bar. That not only gives a ton of hate but can save lives. I think your assessment of hate is way off. I can tell you that I can pull a creature off a WAR/MNK any day of the week. While you site Warcry as being as good as provoke for a Warrior, Shield Bash and Sentinel for a Paladin also provide additional hate.

It doesn't sound like you know much about Paladin since you don't really have an idea which spells we get. Until the high levels we get 4 spells: Cure, Banish, Protect and Shell. There is nothing about curing status ailments in being a Paladin.

I'm also a level 30 Warrior/Monk, since thats what I was before getting Paladin. Counter is nice, its true, but not the be all-end-all you are trying to describe it to be. Warrior/Monk is a very powerful job combination and I'm sure you are having good success with it, but I think you are highly underestimating what a Paladin can do.

[Lewkowski]

Ah but if you use those heals... what then? Do you sit down? Now the group can't pull, and you lose TP.

Also war/mnk special abilities create hate, I've pulled off a PLD before by just hitting berserk... And I belive boost also gives hate. In fact I tested this in battle. THe Paladin pulled with provoke, he got to our party, I immediatly hit Dodge and hit provoke. He used sentinel and I used war cry. He then hit provoke... and the monster stuck on me. HE got pissed because he said he wasted sentinel.

Hmm you might be right I have never seen a pld cure status, I just assumed. But in any case that just furthers my point that their casting its all that great.

Well its counter attack + dodge. Very useful. Counter attack is sickenly good when using a great axe!

[Carbon]

Got to party with a paladin in two groups this week, and they were simply awesome as tanks (and one was a Taru!) - worth two warriors at least IMHO.

Rarely did the paladin lose hate, and in the rare occasion he did, and did not have voke ready, all he did was throwa Cure II and the monster was back on him.

In the second group, we also had a WAR/MNK before we got the paladin. While by no means bad, he took noticeably more damage than the paladin, and I (SAM/WAR) had to act as secondary tank quite often. I don't think I had to voke even once after tha paladin arrived.

[Avenger02]

Paladins may lose TP when we have to rest to heal mp but since we have to use 1h Sword/Shield we regain it very quickly because we swing more than a great axe not to mention we miss less frequently... I know this from being a war/monk and I always am the first to reach 100 TP from 0 while the other warriors in my party are around 75 with there Great Axe/Great Sword and they started at 30!

Let me remind you something... YOU ARE NOT A DAMAGE DEALER!!! You are a TANK! You dish out some damage but you take all the damage you can... If you wanna do damage especially 30+ do another class or something or stay with whatever your playing but do not insinuate paladins suck when we are the ones who are going to save your butt later on in the game...

[Negorath]

"In order to understand your fellow man, walk a mile in his shoes. When you have finished your journey, stop and reflect upon what you have seen and what you have felt."

[bside]

Originally posted by Negorath
"In order to understand your fellow man, walk a mile in his shoes. When you have finished your journey, stop and reflect upon what you have seen and what you have felt."

nicely put.

others already replied w/ somewhat countering comments, so i wouldn't go any further than that, but let me tell u one thing;

the higher the lvl, the more difference will be so obvious.


there's nothing against tanking war, but at one point u will realize that pld does better tank.

[Lewkowski]

Thats why I post, so I don't have to get up to 60 paladin and 60 war to find out whats best .


I agree paladin TAKES damage better. But it doesn't dish out damage as much, and gets hit more often. Thats the core of my argument. If a warrior/mnk gets hit on average for 200 damage, and the pal/war gets hit only 180 damage that doesn't mean the pal/war is better if the warrior/mnk counter attacks or dodges more hits!

Has anyone tested this and done combat logs comparing equally equiped paladin/war and war/mnks? If so I would love to see the results.

[Baradak]

1h Sword/Shield we regain it very quickly because we swing more than a great axe not to mention we miss less frequently... I know this from being a war/monk and I always am the first to reach 100 TP from 0 while the other warriors in my party are around 75 with there Great Axe/Great Sword and they started at 30!

Wrong. You miss the exact same percentage of hits as any other class, assuming the same accuracy. As war/mnk using greataxe I have yet to have another party member gain TP faster than me. (I have grouped with samurais, but I was tanking, thus I gained TP much quicker than normal.)

The reason you gained TP faster was because you were tanking. You get 2-3TP per hit the mob lands on you. Thats quite a few hits in a fight.

*steps off soap box*
That'll conclude my myth dispelling for today.

[Negorath]

I'm pretty certain the only reason you gained TP quicker than the SAM is because you where tanking... There is a reason they can perform one man renkeis you know.
Not only do they have their 2 hour ability, but at lvl 10, 30, and 50 they gain Job traits that return more TP per hit.

But anyhoo...

Yes, the miss percentage is the same more or less, except Greataxe having slightly better actually because it's a Warrior A+ weapon and allows a higher Greataxe skill per lvl than any other melee type.

<edit /rantfilter >

[Baradak]

I already said I built TP faster because i was tanking.

Arbitrary miss percent: 20%

Great axe (500 delay)
10 swings, 2 miss, 8 connect. 8 * 12TP/hit = 96TP

Sword (250 delay)
20 swings. 4 miss. 16 connect. 16*6TP/hit = 96TP

Next?

[Negorath]

Ahh ok, the TP gain per hit is 2x with a two-hander, nevermind my rant then, I was gonna test it but I'm one lvl short of using my Greataxe atm.

[Icemage]

Up through about level 30, WAR/MNK *do* tank better than PLD/WAR due to Counterattack being a major factor.

Once you get past those opening levels, there is a night and day difference between the two as far as hate-gathering. PLD get a swarm of hate-generating effects(shield bash, sentinel, holy circle, cover, invincibility), plus the ability to cast numerous Cure spells. Warriors get... Provoke and Warcry. Not that those are bad abilities by any stretch, but once you get to level 50, the PLD/WAR outperforms the WAR/MNK by a very, very wide margin.

Things to keep in mind:

Paladins don't have Counterattack, but their Shield and Parry skills are higher than a Warrior's, and their equipment complements those abilities. At higher levels, the difference starts becoming very pronounced.

Counterattack is cool, but Shield and Parry are better. You can't Counterattack special attacks, but you CAN block, parry, or evade some of them.

As a WHM, I can tell you I am usually safer with a PLD tank than a WAR tank of equal skill post-level 30. I usually spend less MP healing the PLD as well, since they are casting Cures on themselves. Plus I can use Benediction with absolutely no fear because Invincibility cancels the hate of Benediction without fail (not that that ever stops me from using Benediction anyhow ;P )


Icemage

[Negorath]

Ok, I have now had the time to test a Greataxe, and with each hit I got 12-13% TP per hit, now, with my Light Axe I swing for twice the speed, and get 7-8% TP per hit.

Now if I take your numbers, and modify them a bit, I get:

Arbitrary miss percent: 20%

The Light Axe's speed is ~185% greater than the greataxe.

Greataxe (504 delay)
10 swings, 2 miss, 8 connect. 8*12TP/hit = 96TP

Light Axe (270 delay)
18 swings. 4 miss. 14 connect. 14*7TP/hit = 98TP

Pretty much even, and both weapons lvl 10 WSs returned ~13% TP on each impact, so that just furthers the fact, but that might change with the higher lvl WSs.

[Lewkowski]

And lets not forget that before level 50 Warriors have a higher raw defense score...

Also boost creates aggro. And with a Great axe its a good idea to use it IMO.