Provoke - Analyzed

[kebrok]

CHR doesn't affect how long the enemies stays on you for, that is Enmity, it affects the chance of the enemy facing you after you use provoke.

Provoke adds a certain amout of hate. This will indeed cause a mob to stay on you longer.

Provoke works better if it is used everytime it is up. It doesn't just give you a chance to bump you up over every one else that has hate.

Think of provoke as a nice big direct damage spell that you can use every 30 seconds. It does not work like the taunt in eq, for example.

I am not convinced that charisma has anything to do with provoke. Any JP sites out there run chr tests? I would like to hear the out come if they did.

If someone out there can do the bard/warrior test I suggested, it should be easy to see if chr makes a difference.

Alternativly, has anyone noticed the difference between a galka and an elvaan warrior's provoke? I have not.

[Arnda]

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
Question for high-level players:
In your experience, does a 50WAR/x have a more effective Provoke than a 50PLD/WAR?

In other words, is Provoke possibly tied to WAR job level?

Like all Job Abilities, the effectiveness of Provoke should in theory be tied to Warrior level. This means two things:

1) If Provoke's effectiveness scales up with levels, then a PLD actually has a Provoke HALF as powerful as a Warrior's.

2) If Provoke's effectiveness does NOT scale up, then there is no difference at all despite twice the levels' difference, effectively meaning there'd be no reason at all to prefer one Provoke over another.

3) CHR would be independent of this, either way. Whether it has any effect or not is irrelevant UNLESS Provoke is at half-strength for non-WARs, in which case a PLD could certainly use all that extra CHR they get (if it does anything)!

[Jubba43605]

You want the truth, I never have any problems with losing hate when I provoke with Warrior subbed. I think Provoke works the same with every race, and is not more effective with any in particular.

[Spider-Dan]

Originally posted by Arnda
Like all Job Abilities, the effectiveness of Provoke should in theory be tied to Warrior level.

"Like all Job Abilities"? I can't think of any low-level JAs that are tied directly to your job level. I'm pretty sure that Steal and Boost are tied to your INT and ATK, respectively, and not your job level for THF and MNK (again, respectively).

[kebrok]

Provoke definitaly scales up as you level. If it didn't it would grow to be worthless rather quickly.

If its tied to a stat, then it would be worth knowing which one. If it was tied to the level of the warrior, a ninja should be quite abit worse at holding aggro then a warrior. Not haveing grouped with any good ninja's, I can't awnser that.

I can't help but think that some jp site somewhere had these same questions and figured them out...

[Spider-Dan]

Like I said, I have read previously that Provoke is tied to your Max HP. I'm trying to remember exactly where I read that bit of info...

[zyfe mural]

http://ffxionline.com/forums/showthr...threadid=25192

That should sum it up :sweat:

[kebrok]

The question at hand is what determains the amout of hate caused by provoke. That thread did not address that question.

[nuvas]

In my personal opinion, it seems charisma has a high probability that it affects provoke, why else would high end paladin armor have charisma on it? It has to serve some purpose. I can't prove or disprove this theory however, like Russta said it would be insanely difficult. I'm just going off of pure speculation, like the rest of you. If we can think of a series of tests to run, I'd be happy to participate.

[Andorhall]

By the same token how would you explain the Fafnir Aegis helm Awn brought up? That would be like them making a ring that was -4dex, +2 accuracy, just doesn't make sense.

[Russta]

Originally posted by Andorhall
By the same token how would you explain the Fafnir Aegis helm Awn brought up? That would be like them making a ring that was -4dex, +2 accuracy, just doesn't make sense.

It does if you completely understand what I am trying to say is the difference between emnity and the way in which CHR affects taunt. The Aegis Helm would keep the hate on you more consistently but if say a BLM did Freeze and hit for 1000 it wouldn't be as easy to get the enemies attention just with taunt while wearing that.

Originally posted by Spider-Dan
I'm pretty sure that Steal and Boost are tied to your INT and ATK, respectively, and not your job level for THF and MNK (again, respectively).

Just to give an example of how wrong that is about Steal, I joined a Skill up party as WHM/THF (65/32) in Davoi and attempted Steal every five minutes for two hours and got nothing, not even the lower Mythril coins. The Thief there, I estimate, had a steal rate of 4/5 for Gold Coins.

Monks accumulate is entirely dependant on Attack stat though.

[imac2much]

I agree with Russta. If CHR does indeed affect Provoke (again, hard to prove), it would have a relation with enmity *solely for Provoke*. So if that Aegis helm is +enmity and -CHR, that means that your provokes would have slightly less enmity, but all overall actions will have more enmity (which may, in theory, mean your Provoke stays the same).

To my knowledge, +enmity and -enmity kicks in with EVERY action you take that involves hate. So the +enmity will kick in whenever you swing your weapon, heal someone, cast Flash, use job abilities, etc etc... whereas in theory it seems CHR would affect only Provoke. Hope this clears it up (even though this is all still speculation).

[kebrok]

A white mage gets just as much charisma as a paladin.

If you want to test chr and provoke just grab a bard or bst with lots of charisma grear...

[Taurius]

There's seems to be a major misunderstanding of Provoke and enmity.
Provoke is a form of charm that has only an antagonistic effect. And charm in the game, is defined as one's ability to effect the mobs natural behavior. BRD and BST use charm to subdue a mob to make them do an action they normal wouldn't. Every BRD and BST knows that if they fail to "charm" a mob, there's a ton of "hate" on them even in a PT. "Charm" is effected by CHR and LVL. It's not stackable. Gives a set value on enmity. Increased CHR for Provoke, helps you to "charm" a mob to you, not create higher enmity as it's soul purpose. I can't give an exact figure on how successful Provoke is with higher CHR, but I can give an example of how well higher CHR effects Provoke: A PLD is 2 lvls lower than a WAR. PLD is main tank. PLD has 10 more CHR than WAR. WAR is doing 3 times more damage. PLD isn't healing much. THF does Sneak behind WAR. Mob aggros WAR. PLD casts Provokes. Mob aggros PLD. WAR hits the mob, regains aggro. This is a very common scenerio. The higher enmity of the WAR allowed him to return the aggro. This is an issue of Provoking, not maintaing hate. The PLD was successful at pulling off the Provoke because his "charming" ability was high enough to counter the enmity the WAR had. But it did not create higher enmity than the WAR.

Enmity is a dynamic value given by an action that the player performs, and increases or decreases as time passes, depending on what a player is doing. Enmity keeps a mob on you. Enmity is stackable. Certain actions or status gives a varying degree of value to enmity. Gear's that increase or decrease Enmity, effects the % of enmity gained by an action, and the speed of enmity lost.

So think of Provoke as a form of redundent "charm", and enmity or "hate", as a value that keeps a mob on you. Just as a BRD can fail to charm a mob with a song, WARs or PLDs can fail to charm with Provoke.

[laicram]

Tarius that makes some sense to me. <snip>

Editted cuz I don't know what I'm talking about =P