Time To Level Thief!

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Ok so few questions on an aspiring THF, I do plan to level this slowly on my offtime. heres a few questions I'm hoping to get answered by more experience Thieves.

1) What are party invites like? THFs are pullers so I dont really think party invites should be that bad.

2) As A paladin before Asssassin trait at 60 I saw some thieves do the "First provoke" thing with another DD who can Provoke then SATA onto me, I also saw some Thieves just SATA onto me even though the mob was facing me, does it still land without the "first provoke"?

3) I have marksmanship leveled already from my 75 Corsair, is marksmanship the only thing i should use? Or should i look into leveling throwing and archery?

4) What is gear like (I'm only lvl 26) i see Thieves lean for ACC and I see Thieves lean towards DEX, which ones the right one? I also see Thieves walk around in CHR gear.

5) Pulling, I enjoy pulling i don't know why, I guess its from having a Corsair and Bard who pulled. Do I pull with a status bolt?

6) and onto status bolts, what should i carry?

7) What am i going to be looking forward to 30+ before 60?

8] AF, do i need the whole AF set because some of it looks ridiculous and "why should i even bother questing it" i heard THF can just pick coffers and not worry about coffer keys, is it true?

9) Yes, the notorious subjob question, I have /sam, /nin, and /war. Is that all i need? I see some /rng but i really can't be bothered to level ranger lol.

Thanks for anyoen who answers a question from an aspiring THF

[Zempten]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

1) What are party invites like? THFs are pullers so I dont really think party invites should be that bad.

THF invities don't pick up till 15 because anytime before that you don't offer anything unique. Your invite rates will vary server to server and base on how many people are seeking, but usually THF's invite rates get lower and lower as you lvl. I think it was around lvl 65 for me that it became tough. Your best bet as a THF is to start your own PTs, then again it's always the best thing to do usually if you can.

2) As A paladin before Asssassin trait at 60 I saw some thieves do the "First provoke" thing with another DD who can Provoke then SATA onto me, I also saw some Thieves just SATA onto me even though the mob was facing me, does it still land without the "first provoke"?

No. SATAing even when the mob is facing you is quite . . . dumb before Assassin JT. However just TAing won't ALWAYS guarentee good DMG as it's random if TA's crit procs or not (the hate transfer is still there). I would advise pre-60 to always use SATA behind the mob on whoever you want to transfer hate to. After 60, your free to split up SA and TA.

3) I have marksmanship leveled already from my 75 Corsair, is marksmanship the only thing i should use? Or should i look into leveling throwing and archery?

Marksmanship's Defense Down bolts are the best imo. It helps the overall PT and when things get sticky you always have Bloody Bolts to use to try and help you get some HP. Also sometimes Defense Down bolts can dispel certain Defense Up TP moves mobs do which is another plus. However, if your not pulling (say the BRD is pulling for faster chains) you might want to invest into a Bomb Core

4) What is gear like (I'm only lvl 26) i see Thieves lean for ACC and I see Thieves lean towards DEX, which ones the right one? I also see Thieves walk around in CHR gear.

CHR gear is sorta pointless as it's only 1 variable (in our WS). Instead if you go for DEX it'll factor into 2 variables in our WS (SA and WS). As far as ACC or DEX, you need to determine this yourself through parsings. ACC isn't a big deal on 1/2 hit WS, but for things like Dancing Edge/Evisceration (2+ hits) it's pretty important. So if your able to hit the correct amount of TP return for these multi-hit WS, I'd start using some DEX/ATK/STR gear to boost it up even higher. The most important thing though is that you have 2 types of gear (one for TPing, one for WSing). Most of your gear will be used in both sets though so it's not that expensive. Also you need to factor in your food choice (Sushi/Meat) into the equation. This will vary depending on your gear/PTmembers/types of mobs.

5) Pulling, I enjoy pulling i don't know why, I guess its from having a Corsair and Bard who pulled. Do I pull with a status bolt?

Yes

6) and onto status bolts, what should i carry?

Acid, Bloody, and Sleep. Sleep actually helped me a few times, but the sleep effect didn't proc as much as I'd like. I just carry Sleep then b/c sometimes our Sleepers were dozzing off or something. A few lucky Sleeps and 2HR helped back then when we had more then one mob and no RDMs/BRDs/BLMs who slept or were sleeping themselves >.>

]
7) What am i going to be looking forward to 30+ before 60?

You can look forward to ....
TA - so you don't have to tank after you WS or close the SC
Viper Bite - your first strong Dagger WS
Various assortments of gear

8] AF, do i need the whole AF set because some of it looks ridiculous and "why should i even bother questing it" i heard THF can just pick coffers and not worry about coffer keys, is it true?

No really. Most of the AF for me was replacable with other stuff like Emp Hairpin instead of AF head. The only AFs I would advise to get are the legs and feet (so you can flee an extra 15 %). Maybe hands if you really need. Otherwise the head and body were rather worthless imo

9) Yes, the notorious subjob question, I have /sam, /nin, and /war. Is that all i need? I see some /rng but i really can't be bothered to level ranger lol.

Personally I did /WAR up to 22. Then I /NIN up to 30. Then I did /WAR or /NIN up to 75 depending on the situation. I did WAR to 22 because no other SJ had anything I really wanted and you could tank at those lvls too. I did /NIN from 22-30 so I could Blink off some hits after I did my WS + SC so I wasn't an MP sponge. Once I hit 30, I was free to do whatever because I could TA on others. I'd say you would benefit from /WAR much till Viking Shield though imo.

[Malacite]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

1) Pre 15 they're pretty bad, and even then it won't get good until 30/33

2) As long as you're behind someone else, TA will land if it hits (Assassin makes it guaranteed hit + critical. However, unless you're using Hide, SA will miss if the mob is looking your way)

3) THF can't use archery until blind bolts, so you may want a bow early on but after that you'll only need marksmanship. Oh, and use swords early on since daggers suck pre-20. H2H isn't a bad choice either, though Armando has pointed out before that DPS on Flamesword is good chunk higher.

4) Acc. You want to build TP ASAP for sneak attack, then macro in DEX for SA (and AGI for TA)

5) Pull with acids. They're cheap and useful (always carry loads of them)

6) Primarily acids, along with bloody and sleep for soloing.

7) Trick Attack, Viper Bite, 2 Evasion Traits and Treasure Hunter 2

8) Definitely get the feet. You likely won't be wearing full AF in EXP, but it's good to have the whole set in case you want to put it in storage.

9) Okay, SJ debate hoo boy. In the dunes, sub whatever you want it doesn't matter (probably MNK for Boost and Martial Arts).

For 20-30, I highly recommend RNG sub. The +10 accuracy bonus will really help land acid bolts on those damn crabs and pugils (which will erase their defense up moves and override it with -12.5% def) and help your TP gain. Ignore the /NIN tards. Yes, /NIN is a very strong sub for THF but dual-wielding for the sake of doing so is rather dumb, especially over 10 accuracy and ranged accuracy. Remember you only have a C rating in Marksmanship.

That said, at 25+ you can start using /NIN effectively if you dual-wield the +2 daggers. Don't be afraid to /WAR at 30+ either for berserk. Viper Bite doubles your attack rating when used, so I don't have to tell you what Berserk will do to that

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Yeah, Noob question, how do you solo with sleep with sleep bolts? Do sleep bolts do damage?

[Armando]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Zempten (Edit: And Malacite...took too long posting ;P) addressed most of the questions but I'd like to point out a couple of things.

Yes, you only need Marksmanship. It's all about the status bolts. For parties, particularly Acid bolts. -12.5% Defense is huge (a 14.3% improvement to everyone's Attack/Defense ratios) and like Zempten said, it overwrites Cocoon and Scissor Guard, both of which are brutal and can't be dispeled 'til 32. Pull with them, and if you miss, keep trying when you get to camp. Make sure it sticks. Needless to say, macro in +R.Acc equipment for your shots. As for this...

Sleep actually helped me a few times, but the sleep effect didn't proc as much as I'd like.

It's got 100% proc rate. If it doesn't go off, it was a full resist.

Also, if you've never used Sleep Bolts, I'd like to point out that the effect only lasts somewhere around 5-10 secs at most. Just about long enough to stick another one on the mob or run through it, turn around, and SA it when solo. Always bring them with you, they're real life savers when solo, and you never know when you might need to use them in a party.

As for the gear question, you need to gear yourself like any other DD: Attack, Acc, and STR. DEX (and later AGI) are solely for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, respectively.

I would also like to point out that Sneak Attack guarantees offhand/second hand hits with Dual Wield and H2H, and this applies to WS. That means dual wielded Fast Blade and Combo have 2/3 hits guaranteed to land in addition to the first hit being a crit. Viper Bite will pretty much have 100% accuracy. So you don't have to worry too much about Acc for WS until Dancing Edge. Then you'll want as much Accuracy as possible.

Best of luck to you. THF is a very fun, versatile job when played right. Just pray your party cooperates with you.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Thanks Armando~ and everyone for your kind answers~

How long do acid bolts last on a mob once you hit it? until its dead? so i wont need to spam acid bolts?

[Armando]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Ah, I'm sorry, I didn't see your first question. Yes, Sleep Bolts do damage, but they only have 1 DMG if I remember right. The effect procs after the damage though so you can technically sleep a mob, shoot it, and it'll take the damage, wake up, and go to sleep immediately afterwards again.

The real point of Sleep Bolts is either to run away from aggro you can't kill, or to Sleep the mob briefly so you can land SAWS mid-fight. You COULD kill something through Sleep Bolt spam but it'll take too long to be worth it for either farming or EXP. But if for some reason you have to, it's definitely good to know that you can hold the mob as long as you can hit it reliably.

Acid Bolts...uh...well, I haven't touched one in a very long time, but they last reasonably long, assuming the mob doesn't resist it strongly. Probably somewhere around 30-60 secs. You'll only have to apply about twice a fight, at most, if you're killing at a decent speed. Although, Defense Down and most Defense Boost moves overwrite each other mutually, so a crab using Scissor Guard will overwrite your Acid Bolt. You'll have to reapply it every time it uses it.

[Lmnop]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Once you land an acid bolt, if the mob lacks a defense up move (as others said, acid bolts overwrite cocoon, but cocoon and other defense up moves will also overwrite the bolt effect, requiring you to sink another into 'em to dispel the most recent effect), it shouldn't wear off 'til dead.

As in, if you're seeing the effect wear off frequently, you're probably not fighting the right mobs (or your party sucks).

EDIT: It lasts a good long time but FF wiki is listing duration as 60 seconds. I was thinking 1 minute was a half resist but... /shrug.

[711rocks]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Ok so few questions on an aspiring THF, I do plan to level this slowly on my offtime. heres a few questions I'm hoping to get answered by more experience Thieves.

1) What are party invites like? THFs are pullers so I dont really think party invites should be that bad.

2) As A paladin before Asssassin trait at 60 I saw some thieves do the "First provoke" thing with another DD who can Provoke then SATA onto me, I also saw some Thieves just SATA onto me even though the mob was facing me, does it still land without the "first provoke"?

3) I have marksmanship leveled already from my 75 Corsair, is marksmanship the only thing i should use? Or should i look into leveling throwing and archery?

4) What is gear like (I'm only lvl 26) i see Thieves lean for ACC and I see Thieves lean towards DEX, which ones the right one? I also see Thieves walk around in CHR gear.

5) Pulling, I enjoy pulling i don't know why, I guess its from having a Corsair and Bard who pulled. Do I pull with a status bolt?

6) and onto status bolts, what should i carry?

7) What am i going to be looking forward to 30+ before 60?

8] AF, do i need the whole AF set because some of it looks ridiculous and "why should i even bother questing it" i heard THF can just pick coffers and not worry about coffer keys, is it true?

9) Yes, the notorious subjob question, I have /sam, /nin, and /war. Is that all i need? I see some /rng but i really can't be bothered to level ranger lol.

Thanks for anyoen who answers a question from an aspiring THF

1. Invites are pretty crappy, make friends as much as possible
2. Hide will let you SA from anywhere, even on sound mobs as long as you don't have hate to start with
3. Marks is where its at, eventually its good to have a fire bomblet/bomb core for places where acids dont proc (toau camps) or where they wont land (mobs like nidhogg)
4. Eventually you will want the following sets of gear: TP, SA WS, TA WS, Evasion, SA, TA, Rng Acc, and a collection of random items you might need (for example a lightning ring)
at low levels just focus on TP and WS really since there isnt much availible (maybe rng acc too if you want) If you want to eat meat, get a ton of acc gear, if you want to use haste and sushi thats cool too. Don't do what so many thfs do which is make a set with ~25 acc and 10% haste-you wont be fast and you'll need sushi. Focus on one or the other (+50 or more acc and att food, or +16% or more haste and sushi) eventually when you're decked out in homam you can have haste+ and eat att food NP which will be great
5. just pull with an acid bolt
6. acid, bloody, sleep, and blind (never used venom)
7. Viper bite was excellent, hide is my favorite thf ability that isnt a catagory II, level 50 getting corsair's knife is tight, also get double att and Dual-wield II, triple attack made me do an 800 damage viper + 600 distortion to a crab in the tree at level 56 and it was one of my proudest moments
8.only AF i ever got were the dagger, gloves, and pants (i really want the feet, but that hat quest is just soooooo crappy) get them all and dont be gimp like me
9. i really recommend leveling /drk too; the stun works on a ton of mobs (such as the sky gods) and souleater is really wonderful

have fun with thf and we are all here to help anytime

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Thanks for the advice guys~

Anyway i have another question about SATA, still a little confused about it, been reading up guides but it never mentioned what happens when there is no "First Provoke" before Assasin, can I still TA onto the tank or will it not work?

For example, I pull, tank provokes, i come behind the tank and just TA him, will that work?

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

For example, I pull, tank provokes, i come behind the tank and just TA him, will that work?

Not in the manner you hope for. It will technically work, the hate from your TA attack will get placed on the Tank in the above scenario, but it will only be a regular hit, not a Critical. The Assassin trait guarantees that the TA attack will be a critical, thus creatign and transfering more Enmity. TA by itself is nothing before Assassin.

[Lmnop]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

Break-down of THF "attacks":

Sneak attack
Works by being directly behind the monster.

on THF main:
adds your DEX to DMG and makes the hit an automatic critical and makes the attack 100% accurate.

on THF sub:
Makes the hit auto-crit and 100% accurate. No extra damage from DEX.

Trick Attack
Works by having any other PC between you and the mob in question so a normal TA will look like:
Monster > <Tank <You Or even something like <Monster < Unlucky Dark Knight < You

on THF main:
Adds AGI to DMG rating, transfers all hate from the attack to person in front of you.

on THF sub:
Transfers all hate from attack to person in front of you. Absolutely no bonus damage.

Assassin trait
When Trick Attack conditions are met (see above), The attack becomes automatic critical, and 100% accurate (just like Sneak Attack).

Since this is level 60, obviously it'll be THF main only.

Because Assassin makes TA so potent, it's my belief that stacking them at this point is a bad idea.

You lose a large amount of damage potential to give the tank a moderate boost to enmity. Most people tend to solo Sneak Attack and then use TA + WS on the tank.

Pre-Assassin, if you have no trick buddy... you're probably not in the best party layout. I would say feel free to trick onto SAMs and DRGs... but those are the 2 that should be voking anyway. If they're subbing THF like chodes, you can often stand behind the tank and wait for SA WS to turn mob, then you do SATA WS to bring it back. These parties seldom work good, however.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

So TA WILL land before assassin even though the mob is facing the tank and im behind the tank? (this is without someone to first provoke)

Me > Tank > <Mob

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

TA yes, but only as a regular hit. Not much value by itself. Great value with SA from behind the mob though.

[Armando]

Re: Time To Level Thief!

So TA WILL land before assassin even though the mob is facing the tank and im behind the tank? (this is without someone to first provoke)

Me > Tank > <Mob

Like Wise Donkey said, it will work, but to be sure, let me clarify something. Trick Attack WILL work, IF the attack hits. But the attack is not guaranteed to hit, so you can end up wasting Trick Attack on a missed hit and getting nothing at all out of it. This is the main reason for SATA before 60. By combining them, you ensure your TA's don't miss and also get the added benefit of the extra DMG from AGI being amplified by the guaranteed crit. That, and because Viper Bite doubles your Attack rating, making it an indirect buff to both your SA and TA if you combine them (note that other than doubling your Attack, Viper Bite is no stronger than a normal dagger hit.)

And yes, post-60 you generally want to split them up, since TA will then be guaranteed to land (assuming proper positioning) and always crits. Turning DEX to DMG and AGI to DMG on two separate guaranteed crits does more damage than lumping all your DEX and AGI into a single crit. Then there's the fact that you're less likely to waste TP by having to wait for your SATA timers (since you can just SAWS or TAWS) and the fact that the party no longer needs to get a first Provoke just to make you effective.

---

Oh, oh, this is a little bit off-topic but I'd like to point it out anyways. A lot of people will tell you that you need to use fast daggers with Dual Wield, and will also say stuff like "your offhand weapon needs to have low Delay to make your main hand faster." These statements are false. In general, just pick the two best weapons available (generally means the ones with the highest DMG/sec aka DPS ratings) even if that means dual wielding two "slow" daggers.

While we're at it, don't be fooled by the +DEX or +AGI on stuff like Smallsword, Strider's Sword, or your AF dagger. They'll technically boost your SATA damage, but not enough to justify using them over a weapon with better DPS and/or +Attack/+Accuracy.

Too many THFs make those two mistakes when picking their weapons on their way to 75.