Some questions (some/all are stupid)

[Srxjo]

for most of these questions i would ask my friends or test myself but since i can't geton the game as my broadband did not get activated today ><
at the moment i'm a 68 THF

1. should i be doing the old DD/Low Delay Dagger Rotuine or DD/DD? (if you could please tell me the daggers i should use)

2. Does SATA's DEX/AGI Mods get added on activation of the JA or when the blow is struck? (i'll say yet again i get get on atm to test)

3. If Number 2 is on blow should i Aim more towards DEX or AGI or try to balance it as much as possible?

Thanks in Advance
Srxjo

P.S. Sorry if i sound like a newbie THF i don't want to make the good THFs to get embrassed when they see me play, so i ask these now to better myself and not become one of the lvl 75 Noob THFs

EDIT: The only reason i'm asking 2 and 3 as anytime i read a Killingifrit post when i'm bored they confuse the shit out of me >.>; sorry i really shouldn't read the posts there

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

Salutations, Fellow Bandit.

I'm going to clarify for you some of the things that make LV 75THFs (Yours Truly) apart from the common, the lowly, and the noobish, (At the least, attempt to).

As of now, Today, and possibly, forever, THF's low delay is probably the best thing that it's got going for it atm. So the lower you can get your delay, while being able to dish out slightly consistent damage (As far as daggers are concerned) is going to be to your utmost advantage DoT/TP wise. You don't know how much grief it brings me when I notice that some THF is actually going to wield two Corsair's Knives. +10 ATT is nice, but I personally don't think that you should necessarily wield any set of knives that will boost you over a total of 400 points of delay. If you have a dagger that does something spectacular in your offhand, that is a lower delay than your mainhand, then by all means, use this combination for DoT/TP setups. But if you're going to use a high delay set of daggers, at the very least grab some delay reduction gear to get rid of the noticeable slowness.

Any Haste% gear or Triple Attack+ gear is your friend forever, and will make you like a THF god. That and Low delay will make you a force to be reckoned.

As far as the SATA modifications go, I'm personally not for sure if they're added with the bonus modifications before or after you activate the job ability, however, When You do consider stacking DEX and AGI gear w/ your SATA - consider Those items which boost Triple Attack, ACC, ATT, and Crit%+, as all this does get factored into your weaponskills.

DEX and AGI are prime, but they can only do so much for you.

Strategically you'll want to decide when you want to let Assassin Job Trait to take effect. If you're TPing faster than your timers (On average, I'm usually at 100% TP @ 35~45 seconds) you'll want to separate both your SA and your TA, and you'll notice that the damage you parse is far greater than it would have been if you only SATA WS every minute. It might be very much also up to you as well to consider swapping gear before your WS, as it may have a dramatic increase on your performance. Don't neglect ACC and ATT for DEX when TPing however, It's important since we're one of the few jobs that don't get any ACC or ATT bonuses at all.


Also another friendly reminder: When you SA or TA or SATA and WS, the weapon with the greater Basedam is that which gets factored into the overall calculation of SATA WS damage.

Oh yes. And Make for sure certain that before you hit LV 75 your marksmanship is capped. And then you'll be like the pinnacle of THF godliness.

[Srxjo]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

Thanks for that Eauijhkuu, the dagger main hand i have is Hopital Harpe, what do you or anyone else think i should use in the second hand? (i do have a second H. Harpe as i was Dual Weilding them after i dinged, i heard the lowering your Delay with DW is useless and said to use high damage daggers, from working out H. Harp DW'ed, calculation forumals thanks to wiki, Delay: 357 TP: 9.9 DPS: 10.756)

Thanks in advance
Srxjo

[711rocks]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

Eau summed that up well. In order to not be an lolthf, just be smart with your gear choices, and pick things that will compliment each other-as well as remember not to do certain stupid things many do.
What I mean by compliment each other:
Pre-homam having (since it has +haste and allows one to eat meat)-if you want to use the haste&sushi route-the acceptable amount of +haste seems to be about 16% or more. If you want to do the acc & meat route-get at least +50 acc. Don't do things so many thfs do like wear a Wturban and rap harness and use sushi. The 9% haste isn't that good, and you'll have weak attacks from having to use sushi.
Things to remember:
Don't use heart snatcher-the math nerds have proved this thing fails-if anyone wants I'll link the thread about it-if you need to use a cheap weapon magnet knife has a much better DoT.
Don't wear AF pants 24/7 -_-;; soooo many people do this-very orz
Don't wear dex rings 24/7-get some snipers, they will help your dagger and your acid bolts-I wouldn't suggest woodsman since eva is thf's best means of survival.
Level multiple subs for different situations-for example /nin for xp (i'd argue /war but no one ever does), /war for big fights you have to melee (kirin for example), unlock /rng for WS for farming/NM camping-up to you how far to take it, /drk is good for zerg fights-and can stun if you dark skill is capped. (although my n00b ass is still leveling it-it's such a boring job orz)
Learn to use hide-many thfs seem to not understand how pwn that ability is.
Keep your xbow capped.
Use your WSs as effectively as possible for the situation-for example it's often better to use shark bite vs a mob like a mamool ja lurker then to only land a 2 hit dancing edge.
Pre-charge SA and TA - you can activate these before pulling, and when you shoot the mob they will still be active until you engage it and swing the dagger.
We got screwed in that update, and thf was an under-rated job in the first place-open people up to what it's capable of.

[Eauijhkuu]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

FYI

I used Harpe and Hornetneedle at that level

Sweet stuff.

If you can ever manage to get your hand on a sirocco tho, you should always offhand that baby.

[711rocks]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

FYI
I used Harpe and Hornetneedle at that level
Sweet stuff.
If you can ever manage to get your hand on a sirocco tho, you should always offhand that baby.

Cept for puks lol

[Srxjo]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

ok, so you think DD/Speed is the best option?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

I'm was seriously confused as to why he would want to use a Hornetneedle over a second Hoplites Harpe, but my calculations below have shown me why lower delay can be nice at a cost of DoT.

Example:
If a fight lasts between 51 and 53.55 seconds after your first attack round, the Hoplites Harpe x 2 will get 9 attack rounds for 88.2TP while the Hoplites Harpe + Hornetneedle will get 11 attack rounds for 103.4TP, but if the fight lasts between 53.55 and 56.1 seconds, the Hoplites Harpe x 2 will get 10 attack rounds for 98TP while the Hoplites Harpe + Hornetneedle will get still only get 11 attack rounds for 103.4TP. Wow, the lower delay dagger pair really will get slightly faster TP!

Hornetneedle
DMG: 16
DLY: 150
DPS: 6.40

Hoplites Harpe
DMG: 32
DLY: 210
DPS: 9.14

Hoplites Harpe x 2
DLY: (210+210) x 0.85 = 357
TP per dagger: 4.9
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 3 additional hits): 12.8
Hits to get to 100+TP: 18 (could be 17 with 7 Store TP, Rajas Ring, Chivalrous Chain, and Attila's Earring)
Time to get 100+TP: 53.55 seconds (9 attack rounds with 0 misses)

Hoplites Harpe + Hornetneedle
DLY: (210+150) x 0.85 = 306
TP per dagger: 4.7
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 3 additional hits): 12.4
Hits to get to 100+TP: 19 (could be 18 with 5 Store TP, Rajas Ring)
Time to get 100+TP: 51 seconds (10 attack rounds with 0 or 1 misses)

It looks like lower delay does indeed net you TP faster, but you may still find the loss of DoT unacceptable. I'm sorry for previously miscalculating TP gain. This is very interesting and a good argument for lower delay as both THF and NIN. Here you now have the math to back up using lower delay weapons. I think I finally see why ninjas like to use the Unsho and Unji combination. Also this is all with the new TP forumlas. Lower delay would have been even more impressive with the old formulas which SE changed April 18, 2006.

[711rocks]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

After 68 you shouldn't really use any >68 daggers. Maybe sub a behemoth+1 for +att too. BK+1 DPS = 9.55 and TP = 5.5%

[711rocks]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

After 68 you shouldn't really use any >68 daggers. Maybe sub a behemoth+1 for +att too. BK+1 DPS = 9.55 and TP = 5.5%

Edit button not coming up, meant <68

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

I have reread how TP is calculated while dual wielding. The TP gained with either dagger is the same since it is based on half the combined and reduced delay. Please ignor my previous statement about daggers with different delays giving different TP and misses messing things up.

I've taken a look at your next options for daggers, and the cheapest two both have 201 delay, so I have redone the calculations and added the Suppanomimi. Also I'm showing the number of hits required to get over 100TP along with the number of attack rounds.

Magnet Knife
DMG: 32
DLY: 201
DPS: 9.55

Jambiya
DMG: 33
DLY: 201
DPS: 9.85

Magnet Knife x 2 or Jambiya x 2 with Suppanomimi
DLY: (201+201) x 0.8 = 321
TP per dagger: 4.8
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 3 additional hits): 12.6
Hits to get to 100+TP: 19 (could be 18 with 3 Store TP, Chivalrous Chain and 2 x Attila's Earring)
Time to get 100+TP: 53.5 seconds (10 attack rounds with 0 or 1 misses)

Magnet Knife x 2 or Jambiya x 2 without Suppanomimi
DLY: (201+201) x 0.85 = 341
TP per dagger: 4.9
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 3 additional hits): 12.8
Hits to get to 100+TP: 18 (could be 17 with 7 Store TP, Rajas Ring, Chivalrous Chain, and Attila's Earring or Brutal Earring)
Time to get 100+TP: 51.15 seconds (9 attack rounds with 0 misses)

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

I just went and looked at my original post. According to the way of calculating TP on the wiki, both of the daggers had incorrect values. I'm redoing it.

[Srxjo]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

Hoplites Harpe x 2
DLY: (210+210) x 0.85 = 357
TP per dagger: 4.9
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 4 additional hits): 13.8
Hits to get to 100+TP: 20 (without no Store TP)

Hoplites Harpe + Hornetneedle
DLY: (210+150) x 0.85 = 306
TP per dagger: 4.3
TP from Evisceration (First hit, off-hand hit, and 4 additional hits): 12.7
Hits to get to 100+TP: 24 (with no Store TP)

and i don't know how to work out the time to get 100%+ (also i'm not adding in WS TP into the Hit to get 100%)

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

Here are the formulas from the wiki that I used:

Combined Delay = (Delay1 + Delay2)
Reduced Delay = Combined Delay * (1 - Dual Wield%)
Reduced Delay per Hand = Reduced Delay / 2

TP is based on the Reduced Delay per Hand
0 -180 Delay: 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 1.5] / 180

Example:
Harpe + Hornetneedle
Combined Delay = (210 + 150) = 360
Reduced Delay = 360 * (1 - 0.15) = 306
Reduced Delay per Hand = 153

TP per dagger = 5.0 + [(153 - 180) * 1.5] / 180 = 4.7 (4.775. but you drop anything over one decimal place)

Store TP is applied to this final value:
TP per dagger with Store TP+5 = 4.7 * 1.05 = 4.9 (4.935, but again we drop the second and third decimal places)

Getting 100TP:
4.9+4.9+1+1+1+1 (Maximum Eviseration) + 4.9 * 18 = 102
You can miss two of the +1 Eviseration hits and still get 100TP.
Also I would expect it to take closer to WS plus 10 attack rounds because you will have 1 or 2 misses.

You swing both daggers every Reduced Delay / 60 seconds, so with Harpe + Hornetneedle that is 306 / 60 = 5.1 seconds.

Also you can just barely get away with Store TP+3 if you hit all 4 of the 1TP return hits on your WS, which I'm not going to count on. Also it is hard to get two Attila's Earrings because people just sell them to NPCs.

[Armando]

Re: Some questions (some/all are stupid)

As of now, Today, and possibly, forever, THF's low delay is probably the best thing that it's got going for it atm. So the lower you can get your delay, while being able to dish out slightly consistent damage (As far as daggers are concerned) is going to be to your utmost advantage DoT/TP wise. You don't know how much grief it brings me when I notice that some THF is actually going to wield two Corsair's Knives. +10 ATT is nice, but I personally don't think that you should necessarily wield any set of knives that will boost you over a total of 400 points of delay. If you have a dagger that does something spectacular in your offhand, that is a lower delay than your mainhand, then by all means, use this combination for DoT/TP setups. But if you're going to use a high delay set of daggers, at the very least grab some delay reduction gear to get rid of the noticeable slowness.

This is incorrect. DMG to Delay ratios are far more important than speed. Why? Because of what it is - the proportion of how much damage the weapon does in a given amount of time. A slower dagger with a higher DMG/sec ratio is better than a faster dagger that's weaker overall. Swinging faster just for the sake of swinging faster is counterproductive.

Likewise, the notion that your offhand weapon should have a lower Delay than your mainhand is equally pointless. Damage-wise, it doesn't do anything for you. When dual wielding, your damage over time depends on both your hands. That means both your weapons need to be good. Picking a weak offhand weapon just for its speed will just weaken your damage. Speaking of which...

Also another friendly reminder: When you SA or TA or SATA and WS, the weapon with the greater Basedam is that which gets factored into the overall calculation of SATA WS damage.

It's not the weapon with the highest base DMG that gets factored in. It's the weapon in your main hand. This is why the highest DMG weapon almost invariably should go in the main hand, and since higher DMG usually comes with higher Delay, the offhand weapon is usually faster.

There is, of course, always an exception to the rule. Faster weapons do mean higher TP gain, but only if you can get your (average) Delay significantly lower than 180. And even then, you have to consider if the increased TP speed (which really translates to slightly more WS over a period of time) will outweigh the damage you're losing.

And yeah, the DEX/AGI for SATA gets factored in when you hit, not when you pop the ability. It doesn't matter what proportion of DEX/AGI you have, although DEX will also help Dancing Edge since it has a 30% DEX mod.